Interstate 87 (NC-VA)

[LM117]

The latest on the I-87 study of US-17.

http://www.dailyadvance.com/News/2018/01/29/New-I-87-route-option-studied.html

The N.C. Department of Transportation is studying a new route for proposed Interstate 87 north of Hertford that wouldn't require the property condemnation needed for the highway's current route.

The current route for the proposed I-87 through Perquimans County upgrades the existing U.S. Highway 17 to interstate standards. A second route, however, would create a new road that would start near U.S. 17's intersection with Wiggins Road in Winfall and continue north to the area near Victory Baptist Church across the Perquimans County line in Pasquotank County.

One reason the alternate route for I-87 might be attractive is that it would bypass existing homes and businesses on that section of U.S. 17. Upgrading the existing road to interstate standards would likely require demolition of existing homes and businesses and creation of new access roads.

"If you stayed on the current U.S. 17 there would have to be service roads and some of those would go right through people's property,"  said Angela Welsh, director of the Area Regional Planning Organization based in Hertford.

The DOT study that includes the new route for I-87 north of Hertford looked at an 80-mile stretch of the highway through seven counties. The proposed interstate begins in Williamston in Martin County and continues north through Camden County to the Virginia line.

Welsh cautioned that planning for the proposed I-87 is still in the early stages.

"A feasibility study doesn't determine much, because it's just a study,"  she said. "This is just a preliminary document."

Welsh said there will be plenty of time for public comment on the plan once further studies are completed. The final draft of the study is expected to be complete early next year.

Both county officials in Perquimans and town officials in Hertford have already said they don't want I-87 to include a bypass of Hertford. Because of that, DOT didn't include a bypass of the town in the feasibility study.

Two I-87 projects in Perquimans are proceeding in the planning stage. One creates an interchange on U.S. 17 at New Hope Road. DOT currently has right-of-way acquisition for the project slated to start in 2023 with construction to follow in 2025.

Another project would build either an interchange or flyover at Wynne Fork Road. Welsh said right-of-way purchases for that project are slated to start in 2024 with construction to follow in 2026.

Welsh said she is unaware of any future public meetings on the I-87 project for now. More may be known in January 2019 when the state releases the final draft of the plan, which will also include a timeline for when funding for the project might be available, she said.

If and when the project moves further along, a "merger team"  including both state and federal officials will be created. It's at that point that environmental studies will be conducted and historic preservation issues will be addressed.

"There is going to be a lot of going back and forth once the merger team is created,"  Welsh said.

For more information on the I-87 plan, visit https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/us17-feasibility-study/.

[The Ghostbuster]

Maybe if these segments are built, it will build momentum for Virginia to eventually fund and build their segments as well.

[LM117]

Maybe if these segments are built, it will build momentum for Virginia to eventually fund and build their segments as well.

Zero chance.

[sparker]

Maybe if these segments are built, it will build momentum for Virginia to eventually fund and build their segments as well.

Zero chance.

I'll be something of a contrarian here and say that if I-87 reaches the state line as a continuous route from Raleigh what VADot will do is sign the new "freeway" segment south of the I-64/264/US 17 junction as I-87, and simply put either green signs of a TBD size along the remainder stating "future I-87 corridor" or simply shield assemblies stating "TO I-87" with a forward trailblazer arrow.  But they'll have a couple of decades left before they decide exactly how to proceed.  But I don't anticipate any prioritization of further improvements to US 17 in Chesapeake unless to satisfy local demand.

[wdcrft63]

Maybe if these segments are built, it will build momentum for Virginia to eventually fund and build their segments as well.

Zero chance.

I'll be something of a contrarian here and say that if I-87 reaches the state line as a continuous route from Raleigh what VADot will do is sign the new "freeway" segment south of the I-64/264/US 17 junction as I-87, and simply put either green signs of a TBD size along the remainder stating "future I-87 corridor" or simply shield assemblies stating "TO I-87" with a forward trailblazer arrow.  But they'll have a couple of decades left before they decide exactly how to proceed.  But I don't anticipate any prioritization of further improvements to US 17 in Chesapeake unless to satisfy local demand.

It will be 2040 before this needs to be addressed.

[The Ghostbuster]

I'll turn 56 in 2040. Maybe "future me" can keep tabs on how Virginia deals with Interstate 87.

[Beltway]

It will be 2040 before this needs to be addressed.

This road won't be needed even in 2040, IMHO.

[sprjus4]

Maybe if these segments are built, it will build momentum for Virginia to eventually fund and build their segments as well.

Zero chance.

I'll be something of a contrarian here and say that if I-87 reaches the state line as a continuous route from Raleigh what VADot will do is sign the new "freeway" segment south of the I-64/264/US 17 junction as I-87, and simply put either green signs of a TBD size along the remainder stating "future I-87 corridor" or simply shield assemblies stating "TO I-87" with a forward trailblazer arrow.  But they'll have a couple of decades left before they decide exactly how to proceed.  But I don't anticipate any prioritization of further improvements to US 17 in Chesapeake unless to satisfy local demand.

I spoke with someone in Chesapeake last month and they have mentioned awareness of the new interstate. Also, the city of Chesapeake has requested VDOT to begin an US 17 Interstate / Interchange Feasibility Study, which would identify where interchanges could be located with the new highway, and how to address upgrading the road to full interstate. It will obviously be a decade or more before any construction occurs, but the feasibility study has begun, which will take a couple of years to complete I assume.

Here's the letter with information about the study - http://files.constantcontact.com/2d09bb17be/38bd3e8d-7938-4453-ac21-829bfcf0f481.pdf

Hopefully by 2040 or sooner, the road is complete through both Virginia and North Carolina. And hopefully Virginia is willing to set a 70mph speed limit on south 17 in Chesapeake, knowing their history with low speeds on interstates in Hampton Roads.

[LM117]

Tidbit from a column written by Larry Lombardi, economic director of Currituck County, pushing for using the proposed Currituck connector route to link with VA-168.

https://pilotonline.com/inside-business/news/columns/article_e4433ea9-96f7-57e6-a3ef-f342f52c34f3.html

The port set a new record for volume in 2017 by handling more than 2.84 million TEUs (twenty-foot equivalent units). Roughly 150,000 of those containers moved to and/or from North Carolina.

With that much product rolling back and forth from Hampton Roads across the border, it's more urgent than ever that key regional transportation projects move forward. At the top of the list is Interstate 87, a high-speed, unobstructed route between Norfolk and the Raleigh/Research Triangle area of North Carolina.

Interstate 87 will be a big step toward solving our "cul-de-sac"  conundrum. Traffic flow has never been ideal in Hampton Roads, but we can't just sit by and let infrastructure and geography limitations undo the port's progress. The more efficiently cargo can move from ship to destination, the faster our entire region can benefit.

We need I-87 to become a priority for both Virginia and North Carolina, and we need it to come through Currituck County.

One proposal from the North Carolina Department of Transportation has I-87 following U.S. 17 through Edenton and Hertford before joining Dominion Boulevard into Chesapeake.

We prefer an alternate proposed route that creates an east-west connector through northern Currituck. The new road would link with Virginia 168 before it becomes the Chesapeake Expressway (a connector to Interstates 64 and 464). Our belief is the new alternate would be built closer to interstate standards than U.S. 17, and it would provide a closer route to the various port facilities.

While the reality of any finished road may be decades away, the time for discussion is now.

Not only will I-87 create a valuable connection from Hampton Roads to Raleigh, but the route will open up a world of opportunity for new companies and businesses that want to connect with the Port of Virginia — and the rest of the world.

[Beltway]

Tidbit from a column written by Larry Lombardi, economic director of Currituck County, pushing for using the proposed Currituck connector route to link with VA-168.
[...]
Not only will I-87 create a valuable connection from Hampton Roads to Raleigh, but the route will open up a world of opportunity for new companies and businesses that want to connect with the Port of Virginia — and the rest of the world.

Baloney, any way you slice it. 

It would be much longer distance and time than the existing Interstate and 4-lane connection.

[CanesFan27]

Tidbit from a column written by Larry Lombardi, economic director of Currituck County, pushing for using the proposed Currituck connector route to link with VA-168.
[...]
Not only will I-87 create a valuable connection from Hampton Roads to Raleigh, but the route will open up a world of opportunity for new companies and businesses that want to connect with the Port of Virginia — and the rest of the world.

Baloney, any way you slice it. 

It would be much longer distance and time than the existing Interstate and 4-lane connection.

I sliced it and it was tasty.

[Beltway]

Tidbit from a column written by Larry Lombardi, economic director of Currituck County, pushing for using the proposed Currituck connector route to link with VA-168.
[...]
Not only will I-87 create a valuable connection from Hampton Roads to Raleigh, but the route will open up a world of opportunity for new companies and businesses that want to connect with the Port of Virginia — and the rest of the world.

Baloney, any way you slice it. 

It would be much longer distance and time than the existing Interstate and 4-lane connection.

I sliced it and it was tasty.

It's still baloney, no matter how you dice it or slice it.

[fillup420]

I really just don't see any reason to spend millions of dollars on a road that is already there, and capable of handling the amount of traffic it sees. This all seems like a lot of effort to be able to say "take I-87 north" instead of "take US 64 east to US 17 north". That money be much better spent elsewhere, because general public doesn't give a shit if any given highway is an interstate or not.

[froggie]

^ For whatever reason, North Carolina businesses do give a s*** whether it's an Interstate or not...

[sprjus4]

I really just don't see any reason to spend millions of dollars on a road that is already there, and capable of handling the amount of traffic it sees. This all seems like a lot of effort to be able to say "take I-87 north" instead of "take US 64 east to US 17 north". That money be much better spent elsewhere, because general public doesn't give a shit if any given highway is an interstate or not.

The road can definitely handle growing traffic volumes for years to come, but the point of it is to take traffic from Raleigh and I-95 to Norfolk. The quickest way to do that now though is to take I-95 to U.S. 58 in Emporia then to Norfolk, but the point of the upgrades for I-87 is to make U.S. 64/17 faster, moving more people onto this quicker, and high speed route. Yes, it still may be slightly more mileage than 95/58, but factor in a 70-75mph speed, and it's quicker.  Also, traffic will mainly be in North Carolina traveling from Raleigh to Norfolk as opposed to Virginia, so more money for North Carolina towns/businesses located near the route, and more business growth.

[froggie]

and more business growth.

This is exactly why the North Carolina politicians are trying to sell this route, even though the aforementioned 95/58 route would A) be shorter* and B) be cheaper to upgrade** with a higher return-on-investment.  Except between Holland and Suffolk and (IMO) right at 95, improvements to 58 can largely be done along the existing 4-lane.  The US 17 corridor would require significantly more work with a lot more wetland impact...ESPECIALLY if the Currituck County brainiacs want to get this new-alignment corridor between US 17 and NC/VA 168, though upgrading US 13/17 from Williamston to Windsor would also have a lot of wetland impact because of the Roanoke River and its vicinity.

* - I-95/US 64 to I-64/I-464/US 17 is approximately 134 miles via I-95/US 58, 150 miles via US 64/US 17, and approximately 151 miles via US 64/US 17/Currituck Connector idea/VA 168.

** - Upgrading US 58 would require approximately 42 miles of improvements, plus 2 interchanges on an existing limited-access segment.  Upgrading US 17 would require about 66 miles of improvements.  Existing controlled-access bypasses (Courtland, Franklin, and Suffolk for 58, Windsor, Edenton, and E-City for 17) were not included in these totals.  In fairness, the 95/58 corridor would probably require widening of I-95, but many would argue that 95 needs widening anyway, even if I-87 followed the 64/17 corridor.

The quickest way to do that now though is to take I-95 to U.S. 58 in Emporia then to Norfolk, but the point of the upgrades for I-87 is to make U.S. 64/17 faster, moving more people onto this quicker, and high speed route.

Even if the 64/17 corridor were upgraded to be 70 MPH throughout, it would be all of 90 seconds faster than the 95/58 corridor is TODAY without improvements.

In short, even with a 70 MPH I-87, it would effectively be no faster than the 95/58 corridor.  90 seconds is basically a rounding error given the distance involved.

[Beltway]

The road can definitely handle growing traffic volumes for years to come, but the point of it is to take traffic from Raleigh and I-95 to Norfolk. The quickest way to do that now though is to take I-95 to U.S. 58 in Emporia then to Norfolk, but the point of the upgrades for I-87 is to make U.S. 64/17 faster, moving more people onto this quicker, and high speed route. Yes, it still may be slightly more mileage than 95/58, but factor in a 70-75mph speed, and it's quicker.  Also, traffic will mainly be in North Carolina traveling from Raleigh to Norfolk as opposed to Virginia, so more money for North Carolina towns/businesses located near the route, and more business growth.

"I-87" would be about 25 miles longer, the new route would take considerably more time, and for large trucks with their low fuel mileage there would be a substantial financial penalty as well.  I-95 has a 70 mph limit.  I cannot see any end-to-end trip justification for this idea.

I-95 and US-58 are not going to stand still, at minimum there will be a number of major improvements over the next 20 years.

[Jordanes]

I heard the announcer on North Carolina Public Radio talking about the expansion of NC 540 and they said "it would connect to I-495 near Knightdale". Clearly, someone hasn't yet gotten onto the I-87 bandwagon.

[bob7374]

I heard the announcer on North Carolina Public Radio talking about the expansion of NC 540 and they said "it would connect to I-495 near Knightdale". Clearly, someone hasn't yet gotten onto the I-87 bandwagon.

In the announcer's defense, he/she was reading from the latest NCDOT press release which refers to the Knightdale Bypass as US 64/264 (I-495). A month ago when the first press release about the upcoming 540 public meetings came up with the same outdated information I sent an e-mail to the address listed on their Compete 540 website saying shouldn't the site and the press release be updated to use the new I-87 designation instead of I-495. Got a standard response e-mail thanking me for my suggestions, but as expected no changes. Hope someone at the meeting will bring this up, maybe someone will be embarrassed enough to work to get the site information changed.

[sparker]

What it boils down to is this:  NC is ready & willing to build their 90+% of the corridor's length, while VA by all indications has expressed a profound disinterest in any improvements to a Raleigh-Hampton Roads corridor.  As observers, we can hash out all the pros and cons of building any Interstate-grade route between those two locations ad nauseum, but, like so many projects in so many venues, it comes down to simple political will -- NC has it and is willing to direct it to projects such as this, while VA in general does not.  Whether VA's reluctance is warranted, given the almost perpetual needs of NoVA's suburb-serving network and its corresponding drain on resources, is a matter that will be germane to any attempt to plan, much less deploy, long-distance facilities elsewhere in the state (e.g., I-73).  But it was likely apparent 27 years ago when the first ISTEA-related High Priority Corridors were formulated, including #13, which is now the nascent I-87.  Not a direct connection by any means, but one that eventually proved politically feasible merely by its NC dominance.  Over the years, pretty much most of us on this forum formulated, even within our own minds, a US 58-based Interstate connector from Hampton Roads to I-95 & I-85 to give that metro area an efficient outlet to corridors heading south (essentially filling in an obvious gap); it was the most logical and reasonable route to utilize for that purpose.   Nevertheless, anyone familiar with VA political idiom likely consigned such a corridor to their own "fictional" compendium, realizing that the likelihood of it actually being done were slim & none.  NC became the beneficiary of that equation; they had their own row to hoe -- US 64 east of Raleigh -- and were more than willing to incorporate that within the overall "corridor to Norfolk" plan, since it had been built as a freeway (albeit not to Interstate criteria) out as far as Tarboro.  Hardly by coincidence, the section of 64 from Tarboro to US 17 does meet Interstate standards, being built after 1991, when HPC 13 was adopted.  I-87 isn't just a newfangled and fanciful way to divert traffic and possibly business to northeast NC; this plan has been fomenting within NC circles for a long while; they just "pounced" in 2016, coincidentally (maybe) at the quarter-century anniversary of the corridor's inception. 

As long as publicly-funded transportation facilities and the policy issues surrounding them remain a political football, things (shit?) like this will invariably happen.  Ironically, VA's long-noted commonwealth status may actually be the "saving grace" of that state's short portion of this corridor;  from the cites earlier in the thread, Chesapeake may actually be more interested in upgrading their portion than the state itself; it'll be interesting (and possibly amusing) to watch this play out.   

[Beltway]

What it boils down to is this:  NC is ready & willing to build their 90+% of the corridor's length, while VA by all indications has expressed a profound disinterest in any improvements to a Raleigh-Hampton Roads corridor.

NC can go pound sand.  VA US-17 south of I-64 is already a modern 4-lane limited access highway, the northern part built to full freeway standards.  They just spent $430 million on the Dominion Boulevard project.  The corridor should be adequate for 20 to 30 years into the future, with perhaps the northernmost two intersections replaced with interchanges sometime in the future.

VA has billions of dollars of very complex projects programmed in the Hampton Roads area, the focus is there for that region.

[froggie]

Whether VA's reluctance is warranted, given the almost perpetual needs of NoVA's suburb-serving network and its corresponding drain on resources

I wouldn't call it a drain on resources when NoVA generates almost half of the state's revenue.  It's also not a "drain on resources" when there's more tax generation in that region than the state subsequently spends there.

[LM117]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I-42 and I-795 are the two most important future interstate corridors in eastern NC (if not the entire state) right now. Everything else in that region is secondary. Until those two corridors are finished, I-87 shouldn't be anywhere near a priority.

[WashuOtaku]

What it boils down to is this:  NC is ready & willing to build their 90+% of the corridor's length, while VA by all indications has expressed a profound disinterest in any improvements to a Raleigh-Hampton Roads corridor.  As observers, we can hash out all the pros and cons of building any Interstate-grade route between those two locations ad nauseum, but, like so many projects in so many venues, it comes down to simple political will -- NC has it and is willing to direct it to projects such as this, while VA in general does not.  Whether VA's reluctance is warranted, given the almost perpetual needs of NoVA's suburb-serving network and its corresponding drain on resources, is a matter that will be germane to any attempt to plan, much less deploy, long-distance facilities elsewhere in the state (e.g., I-73).  But it was likely apparent 27 years ago when the first ISTEA-related High Priority Corridors were formulated, including #13, which is now the nascent I-87.  Not a direct connection by any means, but one that eventually proved politically feasible merely by its NC dominance.  Over the years, pretty much most of us on this forum formulated, even within our own minds, a US 58-based Interstate connector from Hampton Roads to I-95 & I-85 to give that metro area an efficient outlet to corridors heading south (essentially filling in an obvious gap); it was the most logical and reasonable route to utilize for that purpose.   Nevertheless, anyone familiar with VA political idiom likely consigned such a corridor to their own "fictional" compendium, realizing that the likelihood of it actually being done were slim & none.  NC became the beneficiary of that equation; they had their own row to hoe -- US 64 east of Raleigh -- and were more than willing to incorporate that within the overall "corridor to Norfolk" plan, since it had been built as a freeway (albeit not to Interstate criteria) out as far as Tarboro.  Hardly by coincidence, the section of 64 from Tarboro to US 17 does meet Interstate standards, being built after 1991, when HPC 13 was adopted.  I-87 isn't just a newfangled and fanciful way to divert traffic and possibly business to northeast NC; this plan has been fomenting within NC circles for a long while; they just "pounced" in 2016, coincidentally (maybe) at the quarter-century anniversary of the corridor's inception. 

As long as publicly-funded transportation facilities and the policy issues surrounding them remain a political football, things (shit?) like this will invariably happen.  Ironically, VA's long-noted commonwealth status may actually be the "saving grace" of that state's short portion of this corridor;  from the cites earlier in the thread, Chesapeake may actually be more interested in upgrading their portion than the state itself; it'll be interesting (and possibly amusing) to watch this play out.   

Pretty much. Everyone agrees I-95/US 58 is the shorter/better route, but Virginia will not make that a full interstate route and North Carolina knows that people program their GPS devices to follow all interstates, so it's a no brainer North Carolina would push for their route thanks to the void Virginia left.

[michealbond]

The portion of US58 between Emporia and Suffolk is reason enough to drive an alternate route. Driven it plenty of times and never seen more cops in one area before.

Not sure why folks like are so upset about this. There will still be plenty of people using the US 58 route. Do people really care that it's a closer route? Will it really be faster when people have to sit on the side of the road in Emporia for an extra 20 or 30 minutes waiting on a cop that pulled them over for going 50 in a 45? Are they going to want to deal with having to go all the way back to Emporia to pay the ticket?

Sure, it's faster. You may save 15+ minutes going the current way, even when I-87 is 70mph once completed. But there's also an "ease" factor that travelers must consider as well. There are plenty of stoplights between Emporia and Chesapeake. Once completed, people will care that they can go 70+mph uninterrupted to their destination on I-87 vs. 87/95/US58 combo. Add in the cops on the route, and I-87 looks like a better option, regardless of mileage.

People do like simplicity. Not much simpler than "Take I-87 North all the way to Norfolk" or "Take I-87 South all the way to Raleigh".