Interstate 87 (NC-VA)

[sparker]

What it boils down to is this:  NC is ready & willing to build their 90+% of the corridor's length, while VA by all indications has expressed a profound disinterest in any improvements to a Raleigh-Hampton Roads corridor.

NC can go pound sand.  VA US-17 south of I-64 is already a modern 4-lane limited access highway, the northern part built to full freeway standards.  They just spent $430 million on the Dominion Boulevard project.  The corridor should be adequate for 20 to 30 years into the future, with perhaps the northernmost two intersections replaced with interchanges sometime in the future.

VA has billions of dollars of very complex projects programmed in the Hampton Roads area, the focus is there for that region.

Whether VA's reluctance is warranted, given the almost perpetual needs of NoVA's suburb-serving network and its corresponding drain on resources

I wouldn't call it a drain on resources when NoVA generates almost half of the state's revenue.  It's also not a "drain on resources" when there's more tax generation in that region than the state subsequently spends there.

Further upthread I speculated that VA's action, once the NC segment of I-87 was essentially complete, would be to sign the freeway portion of US 17 and post the remainder as "TO I-87" and leave it at that for at least the near term; I'm sticking by that assessment.  Whether Chesapeake itself elects to take the lead toward upgrading that remainder has yet TBD; it's certainly too early to engage in speculation as to which way they'll go some 20-30 years down the line. 

And I wasn't intending to sound perjorative regarding NoVA's characterization as a "drain" on resources -- given the fact that the region is one of the two largest metros in the state its needs, of course, will naturally be given some level of priority.  My main concern is that such prioritization may become internalized to the point of consistently excluding consideration of projects in the rest of the state; from all accounts this is an ongoing issue in that state.   And one can't deny that the region is perpetually in the national spotlight simply as an adjunct to D.C.; while Adam's likely correct as to their proportional contribution to the tax base, they're also the proverbial "squeaky wheel" -- with an outsize propensity to "squeak" loudly and clearly when issues emerge (an outgrowth of the proximity to a power center).  Their status as a "test bed" for road-related measures regarding congestion (e.g., the various strategies employed along I-66) just serves to magnify that spotlight; the area tends be a project "magnet" as a consequence.  For better or worse, that has tended to leave much of the rest of VA "high & dry" regarding funding;  whether that's an issue that will continue or escalate will likely depend upon the direction taken in Richmond in the decades to come. 

[Beltway]

The portion of US58 between Emporia and Suffolk is reason enough to drive an alternate route. Driven it plenty of times and never seen more cops in one area before.

Myth.  Have driven it numerous times over the last 20 years and rarely see a single cop.

It is 25 miles shorter, and there are not very many signals, and the 4-mile section just west of the Suffolk Bypass will soon be widened to 6 lanes with access management.  The US-58 sections between the Franklin and Courtland bypasses, and between the Suffolk Bypass and I-64, will be upgraded to full freeway standards long before the NC boondoggle is completed (if it ever is).

[Beltway]

Further upthread I speculated that VA's action, once the NC segment of I-87 was essentially complete, would be to sign the freeway portion of US 17 and post the remainder as "TO I-87" and leave it at that for at least the near term; I'm sticking by that assessment.  Whether Chesapeake itself elects to take the lead toward upgrading that remainder has yet TBD; it's certainly too early to engage in speculation as to which way they'll go some 20-30 years down the line. 

Official plans don't go 20-30 years into the future.  STIPs are usually in the 5 to 6 year range.  Long term needs assessments such as 20 years are general and are unconstrained in funding.

[The Ghostbuster]

Who knows if any of us will still be alive 20-30 years from now? Anything can happen.

[froggie]

Pretty much. Everyone agrees I-95/US 58 is the shorter/better route, but Virginia will not make that a full interstate route and North Carolina knows that people program their GPS devices to follow all interstates, so it's a no brainer North Carolina would push for their route thanks to the void Virginia left.

However, they also have a tendency to program their GPS to follow the shortest or fastest routes.  Which would still keep them in Virginia.

The portion of US58 between Emporia and Suffolk is reason enough to drive an alternate route. Driven it plenty of times and never seen more cops in one area before.

This keeps coming up on this forum.  And while Emporia in particular has a reputation, my own considerable experience with the corridor is that it's more hype than reality.

Sure there's some cops, but no more than I've seen elsewhere (including North Carolina).

And I wasn't intending to sound perjorative regarding NoVA's characterization as a "drain" on resources -- given the fact that the region is one of the two largest metros in the state its needs, of course, will naturally be given some level of priority.  My main concern is that such prioritization may become internalized to the point of consistently excluding consideration of projects in the rest of the state; from all accounts this is an ongoing issue in that state.   And one can't deny that the region is perpetually in the national spotlight simply as an adjunct to D.C.; while Adam's likely correct as to their proportional contribution to the tax base, they're also the proverbial "squeaky wheel" -- with an outsize propensity to "squeak" loudly and clearly when issues emerge (an outgrowth of the proximity to a power center).  Their status as a "test bed" for road-related measures regarding congestion (e.g., the various strategies employed along I-66) just serves to magnify that spotlight; the area tends be a project "magnet" as a consequence.  For better or worse, that has tended to leave much of the rest of VA "high & dry" regarding funding;  whether that's an issue that will continue or escalate will likely depend upon the direction taken in Richmond in the decades to come.

Most of the projects in the "magnet" that you are referring to are not significant-cost projects, or have a large contingent of local or private funding involved.  This is *NOT* leaving the rest of the state "high and dry".  That the Northern Virginia (and, more recently Hampton Roads) jurisdictions are putting local funding (not easy to acquire given the state's use of the Dillon Rule) into projects on the primary system which is ultimately VDOT's responsibility is a strong indicator that the two main urban regions in the state are just as "high and dry" as the rest of the state.

[LM117]

The portion of US58 between Emporia and Suffolk is reason enough to drive an alternate route. Driven it plenty of times and never seen more cops in one area before.

Myth.  Have driven it numerous times over the last 20 years and rarely see a single cop.

Your experiences with US-58 doesn't make anyone else's less valid or a "myth" . I drove US-58 between Emporia and I-64 as recently as last October and it was heavily patrolled. Emporia itself wasn't as bad as it used to be, but the rest of the corridor between Emporia and Suffolk was a different story.

[Beltway]

The portion of US58 between Emporia and Suffolk is reason enough to drive an alternate route. Driven it plenty of times and never seen more cops in one area before.

This keeps coming up on this forum.  And while Emporia in particular has a reputation, my own considerable experience with the corridor is that it's more hype than reality.

Sure there's some cops, but no more than I've seen elsewhere (including North Carolina).

Including Maryland.  At least they no longer do "step out" traffic stops on the inner lane of Interstate highways, following one of their officers getting run over and killed while doing that.

I agree, some roadgeeks seem to glom onto certain issues, some of which are misconceptions and/or erroneous, and they keep streaming it.

[Takumi]

The portion of US58 between Emporia and Suffolk is reason enough to drive an alternate route. Driven it plenty of times and never seen more cops in one area before.

This keeps coming up on this forum.  And while Emporia in particular has a reputation, my own considerable experience with the corridor is that it's more hype than reality.

Sure there's some cops, but no more than I've seen elsewhere (including North Carolina).

Including Maryland.  At least they no longer do "step out" traffic stops on the inner lane of Interstate highways, following one of their officers getting run over and killed while doing that.

I agree, some roadgeeks seem to glom onto certain issues, some of which are misconceptions and/or erroneous, and they keep streaming it.

I've seen far more patrolling in North Carolina in recent years than Virginia.

[sprjus4]

Whether or not if Virginia/Chesapeake even builds there portion, I created a map showing generally what a freeway might look like from Cedar Rd to North Carolina along U.S. 17, if they ever come to do their portion of I-87.

In my view of it (on the map), interchanges would be located at Ballahack Rd, Cornland Rd, George Washington Hwy, and Scenic Pkwy. Access roads would also have to be created at certain points, especially between Scenic Pkwy and G.W. Hwy. All of this can be seen on the map.

Map - https://goo.gl/D5sqNg

This is just my viewpoint of it ever went through Virginia, nothing is official, and things will probably end up being different.

[Beltway]

Whether or not if Virginia/Chesapeake even builds there portion, I created a map showing generally what a freeway might look like from Cedar Rd to North Carolina along U.S. 17, if they ever come to do their portion of I-87.
In my view of it (on the map), interchanges would be located at Ballahack Rd, Cornland Rd, George Washington Hwy, and Scenic Pkwy. Access roads would also have to be created at certain points, especially between Scenic Pkwy and G.W. Hwy. All of this can be seen on the map.
Map - https://goo.gl/D5sqNg
This is just my viewpoint of it ever went through Virginia, nothing is official, and things will probably end up being different.

The rancher that owns about 2,000 acres on the southern part of US-17, got the CTB to grant three breaks in the limited access right-of-way line and fence, so that he can get his farm equipment across the highway.  These would need to be eliminated with some scheme that could provide him decent grade separated access across the highway.

You can see them on Google Maps satellite view -- Number One Ditch, Number Two Ditch, and Number Three Ditch.

[sprjus4]

Whether or not if Virginia/Chesapeake even builds there portion, I created a map showing generally what a freeway might look like from Cedar Rd to North Carolina along U.S. 17, if they ever come to do their portion of I-87.
In my view of it (on the map), interchanges would be located at Ballahack Rd, Cornland Rd, George Washington Hwy, and Scenic Pkwy. Access roads would also have to be created at certain points, especially between Scenic Pkwy and G.W. Hwy. All of this can be seen on the map.
Map - https://goo.gl/D5sqNg
This is just my viewpoint of it ever went through Virginia, nothing is official, and things will probably end up being different.

The rancher that owns about 2,000 acres on the southern part of US-17, got the CTB to grant three breaks in the limited access right-of-way line and fence, so that he can get his farm equipment across the highway.  These would need to be eliminated with some scheme that could provide him decent grade separated access across the highway.

You can see them on Google Maps satellite view -- Number One Ditch, Number Two Ditch, and Number Three Ditch.

Wouldn't an overpass at Ballahack, then to the trail, connect the east side to Number Three Ditch on the west side? Or would a new separation be needed near the state line

[Beltway]

The rancher that owns about 2,000 acres on the southern part of US-17, got the CTB to grant three breaks in the limited access right-of-way line and fence, so that he can get his farm equipment across the highway.  These would need to be eliminated with some scheme that could provide him decent grade separated access across the highway.
You can see them on Google Maps satellite view -- Number One Ditch, Number Two Ditch, and Number Three Ditch.

Wouldn't an overpass at Ballahack, then to the trail, connect the east side to Number Three Ditch on the west side? Or would a new separation be needed near the state line

That would have to be worked out with the landowner.  Presumably there was a good reason why he was granted three private at-grade intersections.  AADT would be very low, maybe 10 or less, but they are at-grade intersections nonetheless.

[michealbond]

No myth about the Emporia area. It has the reputation for a reason. I've seen many cars pulled over on my many travels to and from Raleigh. I also lived in Northeastern NC for the first 20 years of my life and traveled to the Suffolk/Chesapeake/Norfolk/VA beach area countless times as well as the Emporia/Petersburg area on my way to Richmond or DC.

My overall experience has been exactly as the reputation suggests. I learned a long time ago not to speed at all through that entire area.

I honestly don't understand why people (Beltway in particular) are annoyed about this, especially when VA's portion (if it ever gets built) would likely be less than 30 miles of roadway.

I stand by my statement. It will be "easier" for people to drive I-87 between Raleigh & Norfolk on a 70mph non stop interstate than the 87/95/US 58 combo. Yes, there are lots of people that will always want the fastest route, no matter what. But simplicity for many people will beat out the time factor.

[Beltway]

No myth about the Emporia area. It has the reputation for a reason. I've seen many cars pulled over on my many travels to and from Raleigh. I also lived in Northeastern NC for the first 20 years of my life and traveled to the Suffolk/Chesapeake/Norfolk/VA beach area countless times as well as the Emporia/Petersburg area on my way to Richmond or DC.
My overall experience has been exactly as the reputation suggests. I learned a long time ago not to speed at all through that entire area.
I honestly don't understand why people (Beltway in particular) are annoyed about this, especially when VA's portion (if it ever gets built) would likely be less than 30 miles of roadway.

Because some roadgeeks like to spin a lot of baloney about this.  Because it IS annoying.  Because I have driven it countless times myself.

I stand by my statement. It will be "easier" for people to drive I-87 between Raleigh & Norfolk on a 70mph non stop interstate than the 87/95/US 58 combo. Yes, there are lots of people that will always want the fastest route, no matter what. But simplicity for many people will beat out the time factor.

Baloney, any way you slice it. 

It will NOT be easier to drive 25 extra miles, it will not be 'simpler', when about half of the existing route is 70 mph, and when a variety of major improvements are planned on that route.  Especially for large trucks with their fuel costs.  I have said this repeatedly, and will say it again if/when someone posts something contrary.

"I-87" is a boondoggle.

[vdeane]

The routing of I-87 goes way out of the way and will look very, very stupid on a map.  25 miles may not be much if you're driving 1000 miles, but if you're only going 150, it's certainly a lot.  Also keep in mind that truckers are MANDATED to take the shortest route in number of miles, because that's how they get paid.  The trucks will not be taking I-87.

[Takumi]

No myth about the Emporia area. It has the reputation for a reason. I've seen many cars pulled over on my many travels to and from Raleigh. I also lived in Northeastern NC for the first 20 years of my life and traveled to the Suffolk/Chesapeake/Norfolk/VA beach area countless times as well as the Emporia/Petersburg area on my way to Richmond or DC.

My overall experience has been exactly as the reputation suggests. I learned a long time ago not to speed at all through that entire area.

I honestly don't understand why people (Beltway in particular) are annoyed about this, especially when VA's portion (if it ever gets built) would likely be less than 30 miles of roadway.

Because there are just as many of us who have gone through that area countless times without ever seeing a car pulled over.

[sprjus4]

From the I-95/US 64 interchange to I-64/US 17, US 17 is only 15 miles longer, not 25. Even though it may be slightly longer, it will have a full 70mph speed limit, making it more easier for people, like michealbond pointed out. Not to mention, there are plenty of interstates in the US that compete with a US route that may be slightly shorter, but the traffic still uses the interstate. Also, having a full interstate allows trucks and all traffic a generally safer route. No crossroads, driveways, etc. to worry about, just unobstructed freeway. Set your cruise to 70+mph, and you go all the way, whereas 95 requires getting off at Emporia, slowing through there, then to 60mph, then slowing through Suffolk. Also, traffic would avoid the High Rise Bridge corridor with this route, coming into Hampton Roads, which has numerous delays during peak hours.

Plus, what are the chances VDOT would be willing to divert money from other much needed projects to improve US 58 to interstate any time soon? Look at how US 460 went. NCDOT is in a much better position to upgrade US 17 than VDOT is to do 58, comparing their history with VDOT's. US 17 is a lot easier to upgrade, most of it is limited-access already, only a few interchanges needed here and there. Yes, US 58 is a major corridor that may work for now, but traffic can be heavy on 58, and there is a major need for an interstate from Norfolk to I-95 south and Raleigh, like there is I-64 from Norfolk to I-95 North and Richmond, especially as these areas continue growing. Economically, it ties Norfolk into the southern interstate system, and will also bring more traffic through northeast NC. It also opens up the opportunity to allow traffic to use US 13 going north, while that would definitely be longer (40-50 miles longer), it would allow them to avoid DC traffic, which we all know how that can be.

[vdeane]

The distance from US 64 at I-95 to US 17 at the VA border, as the crow flies, is 92.36 miles.  The distance along NCDOT's proposed route is approximately 125 miles... so actually, we've underestimated it, since the difference is closer to 30-35 miles.  For destinations only about 90 miles apart.  That's a 33% increase.  Frankly, I wouldn't go with either US 58 or NCDOT's route.  I'd build a direct new terrain route.

[Jordanes]

Who knows if any of us will still be alive 20-30 years from now? Anything can happen.

Literally ANYthing is possible with Trump in the White House. 

[Beltway]

The distance from US 64 at I-95 to US 17 at the VA border, as the crow flies, is 92.36 miles.  The distance along NCDOT's proposed route is approximately 125 miles... so actually, we've underestimated it, since the difference is closer to 30-35 miles.  For destinations only about 90 miles apart.  That's a 33% increase.  Frankly, I wouldn't go with either US 58 or NCDOT's route.  I'd build a direct new terrain route.

Raleigh-Norfolk on Google Maps it is 184 miles current versus 208 miles proposed.

The reason why they don't build a 'straight shot' route is because it would go thru very rural areas and would serve hardly any even very small towns.  That is why many Interstate corridors considerably deviate from a straight line.

"I-87" is not going to compete with the current route; by the earliest time they could build it (20+ years?) there will be a number of major upgrades built along those parts of I-95 and US-58.  If someone wants to suggest an Interstate route between Raleigh and Norfolk then they need to wait until they can come with something better than this foolishness.

[sprjus4]

The distance from US 64 at I-95 to US 17 at the VA border, as the crow flies, is 92.36 miles.  The distance along NCDOT's proposed route is approximately 125 miles... so actually, we've underestimated it, since the difference is closer to 30-35 miles.  For destinations only about 90 miles apart.  That's a 33% increase.  Frankly, I wouldn't go with either US 58 or NCDOT's route.  I'd build a direct new terrain route.

Raleigh-Norfolk on Google Maps it is 184 miles current versus 208 miles proposed.

The reason why they don't build a 'straight shot' route is because it would go thru very rural areas and would serve hardly any even very small towns.  That is why many Interstate corridors considerably deviate from a straight line.

"I-87" is not going to compete with the current route; by the earliest time they could build it (20+ years?) there will be a number of major upgrades built along those parts of I-95 and US-58.  If someone wants to suggest an Interstate route between Raleigh and Norfolk then they need to wait until they can come with something better than this foolishness.

The distance from US 64 at I-95 to US 17 at the VA border, as the crow flies, is 92.36 miles.  The distance along NCDOT's proposed route is approximately 125 miles... so actually, we've underestimated it, since the difference is closer to 30-35 miles.  For destinations only about 90 miles apart.  That's a 33% increase.  Frankly, I wouldn't go with either US 58 or NCDOT's route.  I'd build a direct new terrain route.

Looking at it from Google Maps, US 64 at I-95 to I-64 at US 17 via 58 is 135 miles, whereas 17 is 150, which is a 15 mile difference. As for upgrades on either route, NCDOT has already funded a project to upgrade US 17 from VA to E-City bypass to interstate standards. Construction will start in approx 8-9 years. They also have funded a few interchanges and an overpass in Hertford, which will be constructed in about 5-7 years. Also, they are expressing interest in wanting to build a new location route between Hertford and Elizabeth City in the near future. And as time passes, I'm sure more plans & funding to upgrade US 17 down to Edenton, then a new location to Windsor, and eventually all the way down to Williamston will happen, especially as the NCDOT's new STIP comes out in a couple of years, where more will get funded. VDOT on the other hand, currently has no plans to upgrade US 58. Yes, a feasibility study for the route across the entire state is currently being studied, but based on prior studies from VDOT, it tends to take at least 15-20 years to bring actual construction to it, if money can even be acquired. The biggest project here in the past 20 years was 168, which ended up being tolled. No other long distance, big highways have happened since. Also, with the whole money situation, it brings even more wait until anything is done to 58. Once I-87 construction begins also, they'll most likely use that as an excuse not to majorly upgrade US 58 in the near future. They couldn't even receive $400 million to upgrade a small section of US 460, imagine how a whole US 58 new location or upgrade would cost. NCDOT is more willing to divert funds to I-87, as they have no current extreme-costing projects occurring, like VDOT does with High Rise and HRBT, which will be the main focus for the next 10 years.

I'll say once again, there are interstates that are slightly longer in distance than the opposing US/state route, but it ends up still being the fastest, the most convenient, and the most traveled on, which is what I feel I-87 will become when it's complete, despite the extra 10-15 miles.

As for building a new terrain route, it would've been interesting if they upgraded NC 11 to US 13 to Suffolk as the route, as it would be about the same mileage, and is on their statewide plan to make that a full freeway. It's going to be interesting to see how this whole thing plays out in the end.

NCDOT maps from the feasibility study of how it may be upgraded/new location built, in case anybody hasn't seen them - http://www.dailyadvance.com/.media/2/2017/09/25/fb1d4a8f-a524-48f9-b6dd-7716cdf09686.pdf

[Beltway]

Raleigh-Norfolk on Google Maps it is 184 miles current versus 208 miles proposed.

Looking at it from Google Maps, US 64 at I-95 to I-64 at US 17 via 58 is 135 miles, whereas 17 is 150, which is a 15 mile difference.

Spurious comparison.  I-64/US-17 junction is 7 miles from downtown Norfolk, so that would subtract mileage from your route.

Going from center to center like I did is a better overall comparison.  24 miles difference.  The existing route is even more favorable for the western part of the metro such as the I-664 corridor.

The US-58 sections between the Franklin and Courtland bypasses, and between the Suffolk Bypass and I-64, should be upgraded to full freeway standards within 10 years.  The 4-mile section just west of the Suffolk Bypass will widened to 6 lanes with access management, starting in 2 years.

[LM117]

The reason why they don't build a 'straight shot' route is because it would go thru very rural areas and would serve hardly any even very small towns.

...or that the Army Corps of Engineers would frown upon a new route cutting through wetlands when there are existing upgradable routes available, as VDOT discovered when they blew millions on the US-460 toll road without any dirt being turned.

[Beltway]

The reason why they don't build a 'straight shot' route is because it would go thru very rural areas and would serve hardly any even very small towns.

...or that the Army Corps of Engineers would frown upon a new route cutting through wetlands when there are existing upgradable routes available, as VDOT discovered when they blew millions on the US-460 toll road without any dirt being turned.

That wasn't at all the reason why the US-460 freeway project was stopped.  It was because of lying, dishonesty and a corrupt process of the McAullife administration who stopped the project.

[LM117]

The reason why they don't build a 'straight shot' route is because it would go thru very rural areas and would serve hardly any even very small towns.

...or that the Army Corps of Engineers would frown upon a new route cutting through wetlands when there are existing upgradable routes available, as VDOT discovered when they blew millions on the US-460 toll road without any dirt being turned.

That wasn't at all the reason why the US-460 freeway project was stopped.  It was because of lying, dishonesty and a corrupt process of the McAullife administration who stopped the project.

Care to elaborate? Because pulling the plug on a toll road that would've been on a completely new alignment paralleling the existing US-460 between Petersburg and Suffolk, that had a snowball's chance in hell of getting approved by the Army Corps of Engineers and would've carried little traffic since it would've been easily shunpiked, seemed like a good decision to me. The US-460 toll road would've been an even bigger boondoggle than I-87!