Every now and then, the subject of funeral processions comes up.
Saw this story in the Lexington Herald-Leader today:
https://www.kentucky.com/news/state/kentucky/article272895835.html#wgt=trending
You should be able to view the story free of charge. The H-L is behind a paywall but I get around it by blocking cookies in my laptop browser.
It does not address the issue of oncoming motorists stopping for funeral processions, either as a legal requirement or as a show of respect.
I will say that a potential 90-day jail sentence for interrupting one in Kentucky may be a bit much, unless you make it a daily habit or something.
I have been in a couple of them, but its been at least 20 years. I can't remember the last time I even saw one.
I was once flipped off and yelled at for not stopping when a funeral procession went by in the opposite direction in a rural area.
So, hypothetically, if you're going in the same direction as the funeral procession on a multilane arterial street, you may not pass any vehicle in the procession, but you can match your speed to theirs and drive next to them, perhaps by using your cruise control so that you don't pass.
What happens if it's raining? Or does Kentucky not require all vehicles to have their headlights on in the rain?
Here in NY, the custom is for vehicles to have their flashers on.
Quote from: SectorZ on March 16, 2023, 12:22:04 PM
I will say that a potential 90-day jail sentence for interrupting one in Kentucky may be a bit much, unless you make it a daily habit or something.
Many laws have harsh penalties that will never be inflicted on those found guilty. Even a basic minor speeding offense often has a 10 or 15 day jail sentence that could be given to someone found guilty. Obviously, that never happens.
Quote from: vdeane on March 16, 2023, 12:49:57 PM
What happens if it's raining? Or does Kentucky not require all vehicles to have their headlights on in the rain?
Here in NY, the custom is for vehicles to have their flashers on.
Nothing says someone can't use headlights near a funeral procession...they just can't use them for the purpose of joining the procession when they're not part of it.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 16, 2023, 01:57:24 PM
Nothing says someone can't use headlights near a funeral procession...they just can't use them for the purpose of joining the procession when they're not part of it.
Or for proceeding through an intersection without properly yielding in general.
I called the state police (Indiana) to find out what the rules are.
- If the hearse or the vehicle in front of it has the regular flashing lights of a police car, then you must stop and stay until the procession passes.
- If there are not police flashing lights, thew hearse must obey all traffic laws, and the following vehicles are considered to be an extension of the hearse (I once drove a hearse under these conditions because I was the only person present who could drive and knew where the cemetery was).
- If there are not police flashing lights, if you are going in a direction that does not interfere with the procession, you stop while the hearse is passing and then you can go. You must not do anything to cause any car in the procession to stop or deviate.
There is a special rule if a train, drawbridge, or emergency vehicle interrupts the procession. The leading part of the procession stops clear of the interruption, and then waits for the trailing part to resume. This is because many drivers in the procession are foreign to the area and may not know where the cemetery is.
Quote from: Troubleshooter on March 16, 2023, 03:40:35 PM
I called the state police (Indiana) to find out what the rules are.
FYI, the police are not always a reliable source of information when it comes to what the law actually says. If you send an e-mail, then it at least gives them time to research it. But if you call, then the person on the other end may just give you what he or she
thinks the law says.
I recall in New York, in the days before E-ZPass, my grandmother's funeral procession went over the Cross Bay Bridge. The hearse driver paid the toll for all the vehicles in the procession and the tolltaker waved the other vehicles through and was counting to make sure nobody else snuck through.
I am opposed to funeral processions getting any sort of special legal treatment that any other procession of cars traveling together wouldn't get.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 16, 2023, 08:13:24 PM
I am opposed to funeral processions getting any sort of special legal treatment that any other procession of cars traveling together wouldn't get.
Ditto. If I can't blow through red lights and stop signs, then why can they? I don't want
more deaths to happen because of dangerous funeral processions.
Speaking of which, here's a related video on the subject from the same guy behind the AVGN:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHV_5fEu3ug
When I die I do not want tons of cars blocking traffic in my honor
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 16, 2023, 08:13:24 PM
I am opposed to funeral processions getting any sort of special legal treatment that any other procession of cars traveling together wouldn't get.
Same. If they wanted to get to the same destination at the same time, then just get in the same vehicles.
I will make an exception for those heading for a human compost facility, because that's more novel.
Quote from: Bruce on March 17, 2023, 04:58:54 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 16, 2023, 08:13:24 PM
I am opposed to funeral processions getting any sort of special legal treatment that any other procession of cars traveling together wouldn't get.
Same. If they wanted to get to the same destination at the same time, then just get in the same vehicles.
Now I'm just imagining a school bus with the back few rows of seats taken out to leave room for the coffin.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 17, 2023, 01:43:16 AM
When I die I do not want tons of cars blocking traffic in my honor
You're fairly optimistic if you expect enough people to show up so that there are
tons of cars.
Most people don't even know how to get to the graveyard, let alone how to navigate the maze of one-lane roads inside the graveyard if it's a big one. I've been in a funeral procession a few times, and one of those went into another county, while another transited halfway across a major metropolitan area. Without the police escort, most of us would have gotten lost–at a time of higher-than-usual emotions. So I guess I'm saying I'm not against funeral processions. I'm just against anyone who isn't cross-traffic having to stop for them: they aren't fire trucks, after all.
Quote from: vdeane on March 16, 2023, 12:49:57 PM
What happens if it's raining? Or does Kentucky not require all vehicles to have their headlights on in the rain?
We have no such requirement here. Drivers are not required to burn headlights (a little North Carolina lingo there) when it is raining.
Here's a 2019 article discussing funeral processions in Canada:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/drive/mobility/article-do-i-need-to-pull-over-for-a-funeral-procession/ (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/drive/mobility/article-do-i-need-to-pull-over-for-a-funeral-procession/)
For Ontario:
QuoteIn Ontario, funeral processions don't get any special exemptions to traffic laws.
"Purple flashing lights are "courtesy lights" in that they have no special privileges associated with their use other than the hope that other motorists will give them the right of way," said Courtney Anderson, spokeswoman for the Ontario Ministry of Transportation (MTO) in an e-mail.
In the age of Google Maps, the idea seems outdated. Is it not possible to meet near the entrance of the graveyard and guide people from there?
To be fair, I've never done one myself. Every funeral I've been to, there was a ceremony at the funeral home and that was it (I think because in each case they were cremated).
Quote from: 7/8 on March 17, 2023, 09:59:57 AM
In the age of Google Maps, the idea seems outdated. Is it not possible to meet near the entrance of the graveyard and guide people from there?
You seem to think everybody drives around with a sat-nav device.
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 10:10:41 AM
Quote from: 7/8 on March 17, 2023, 09:59:57 AM
In the age of Google Maps, the idea seems outdated. Is it not possible to meet near the entrance of the graveyard and guide people from there?
You seem to think everybody drives around with a sat-nav device.
Well, a cell phone, anyway...
Quote from: Rothman on March 17, 2023, 10:17:47 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 10:10:41 AM
Quote from: 7/8 on March 17, 2023, 09:59:57 AM
In the age of Google Maps, the idea seems outdated. Is it not possible to meet near the entrance of the graveyard and guide people from there?
You seem to think everybody drives around with a sat-nav device.
Well, a cell phone, anyway...
And a dashboard mount? You realize, right, that using your phone for GPS directions falls under the category of cell phone use while driving in some jurisdictions?
Besides which, this is all pretending that everyone has a smartphone, which they don't. I don't. And also that the 84-year-old cousin of the deceased is tech-savvy enough to use Google Maps for directions on the iPhone that her son got for her against her will three weeks ago, and capable of doing so while navigating unfamiliar traffic in the rental car she picked up at the airport.
Here (https://goo.gl/maps/Zs5CvurY6kx5zGQ27) is one 19-mile route I've done as part of a funeral procession. This was approximately 700 miles from my hometown of Wichita. I'd been to the town of Buffalo before, but I didn't know what county roads in the area were paved, I'd never been through Maple Lake at all, and I had never approached that side of Buffalo from the west before. There were quite a few people in attendance with even less knowledge of the area than I had, having come into town for the funeral from places like Montana and Missouri and the Twin Cities. The roads were snowy and slushy that day. It was such a relief to just be able to follow the car in front of us, especially pulling out onto MN-55 and going through the stoplights in town.
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 09:43:50 AM
Most people don't even know how to get to the graveyard, let alone how to navigate the maze of one-lane roads inside the graveyard if it's a big one. I've been in a funeral procession a few times, and one of those went into another county, while another transited halfway across a major metropolitan area. Without the police escort, most of us would have gotten lost–at a time of higher-than-usual emotions. So I guess I'm saying I'm not against funeral processions. I'm just against anyone who isn't cross-traffic having to stop for them: they aren't fire trucks, after all.
In NY funeral processions are allowed to disregard red traffic lights. Not really a big deal for 5 cars IMHO.
Once upon a time I got stuck literally in the middle of intersection trying to turn left when light switched, as oncoming looong procession got stalled (20+ cars at least, but maybe 50+). Thanks to a lady who pulled back a bit and let me through....
When my sister (who had a wickedly dry sense of humor) passed a few years ago, she left a short list of things she wanted as part of her funeral service. Number one on the list was "No funeral procession. These dangerous things were invented by funeral directors solely to drum up more business for themselves. :) ."
So, I made up maps for the trips between the funeral home, church, and cemetery, and had copies made for everyone. Nobody got lost or had their car t-boned by someone not paying attention at an intersection. And we all got to the cemetery before the hearse did.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 16, 2023, 12:45:20 PM
So, hypothetically, if you're going in the same direction as the funeral procession on a multilane arterial street, you may not pass any vehicle in the procession, but you can match your speed to theirs and drive next to them, perhaps by using your cruise control so that you don't pass.
Good luck with that. The thing I most hate about driving in a funeral procession is how nobody else (except me, of course) can maintain a steady speed. It's the ultimate low-speed study model of freeway traffic jams -- one person eases up from the accelerator a bit, the next person taps the brakes, the next person normally applies the brakes, the next person slams on the brakes, etc. etc. Repeat until arrival at the cemetery. While the hearse is traveling at a steady speed (except stopping for traffic signals or train crossings), the speed at the back of the procession is constantly varying anywhere between 50 mph and complete stop.
Quote from: catch22 on March 17, 2023, 10:55:07 AM
When my sister (who had a wickedly dry sense of humor) passed a few years ago, she left a short list of things she wanted as part of her funeral service. Number one on the list was "No funeral procession. These dangerous things were invented by funeral directors solely to drum up more business for themselves. :) ."
So, I made up maps for the trips between the funeral home, church, and cemetery, and had copies made for everyone. Nobody got lost or had their car t-boned by someone not paying attention at an intersection. And we all got to the cemetery before the hearse did.
I prefer this. I have attended a couple funerals where a detailed map was provided and there was no procession. The hearse was the last to arrive. And the cemetery grounds crew put up signs to guide vehicles to the gravesite.
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 10:40:49 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 17, 2023, 10:17:47 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 10:10:41 AM
Quote from: 7/8 on March 17, 2023, 09:59:57 AM
In the age of Google Maps, the idea seems outdated. Is it not possible to meet near the entrance of the graveyard and guide people from there?
You seem to think everybody drives around with a sat-nav device.
Well, a cell phone, anyway...
And a dashboard mount? You realize, right, that using your phone for GPS directions falls under the category of cell phone use while driving in some jurisdictions?
Besides which, this is all pretending that everyone has a smartphone, which they don't. I don't.
I smell fear of change.
Just get a smartphone. If you don't, no attending funerals for you, then, by your own choice ("Yeah, Uncle Kphoger is just the way he is, you know? Stubbornly wouldn't find his way to the cemetery. Anyway, how are your kids...?")
In terms of getting cited for having a phone rattle off directions, I've yet to have that very-low-probability issue. Besides, much safer to have a dashboard mount rather than glancing all the way down at a paper map.
There is a sign that funeral processions are prohibited on I-94 east of Moorland Rd in the Milwaukee area.
Quote from: catch22 on March 17, 2023, 10:55:07 AM
So, I made up maps for the trips between the funeral home, church, and cemetery, and had copies made for everyone.
That's awesome!
For our wedding, I included detailed directions from out of town (from three different areas) in the invitations.
Quote from: Rothman on March 17, 2023, 11:02:30 AM
I smell fear of change.
Just get a smartphone.
No. I used to have a smartphone, but I got rid of it because it came between me and spending time with my family. I tried to overcome it and couldn't, so I got a dumbphone instead.
Quote from: Rothman on March 17, 2023, 11:02:30 AM
If you don't, no attending funerals for you, then, by your own choice ("Yeah, Uncle Kphoger is just the way he is, you know? Stubbornly wouldn't find his way to the cemetery. Anyway, how are your kids...?")
That's a bad solution to a made-up problem.
Quote from: Rothman on March 17, 2023, 11:02:30 AM
In terms of getting cited for having a phone rattle off directions, I've yet to have that very-low-probability issue. Besides, much safer to have a dashboard mount rather than glancing all the way down at a paper map.
So everyone is supposed to go out and buy a dashboard mount now? And pack it in their luggage when they fly in and rent a car? All because people don't like having to wait for the procession to clear the intersection?
The last time I was in Kentucky I encountered a funeral procession and stopped for it, both because that was what I was taught in drivers ED and because it is the right thing to do.
Also noteworthy was the fact that several construction workers on a nearby site stopped work and stood with their hard hats removed for the procession which was nice to see.
I would certainly love to return to the custom of stopping for processions, exiting the vehicle, and removing your hat, but if we can't do that we should at least have legal protections for processions.
I don't think the GPS has made the navigational aspect unwarranted. Not only do many people not have such devices, but few things are as vulgar in concept as driving in a funeral procession to the instructions of Karen saying "Turn Left at Main Street." Worse is the fact that multiple routes would often be specified, causing people to arrive in a disjoint fashion. And then of course there is the fact that the procession itself is a form of unity in the face of loss.
90 day jail sentence for the wilful and flagrant violation of one seems quite reasonable, I can't see that being applied to cases of innocent mistakes. And I would support a harsher sentence where the procession was a military funeral.
I think society has enough problems loosing meaningful human connection, I'd rather keep this one around.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 17, 2023, 11:12:29 AM
... it is the right thing to do
... we should at least have legal protections for processions
... few things are as vulgar in concept as driving in a funeral procession to the instructions of Karen saying "Turn Left at Main Street."
... the procession itself is a form of unity in the face of loss.
Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 17, 2023, 11:12:29 AM
90 day jail sentence for the wilful and flagrant violation of one seems quite reasonable
Definitely NOT agreed. The punishment seems wholly inappropriate for the crime. A simple traffic ticket, like not yielding to a pedestrian, would be more appropriate.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 17, 2023, 11:00:36 AM
The thing I most hate about driving in a funeral procession is how nobody else (except me, of course) can maintain a steady speed. It's the ultimate low-speed study model of freeway traffic jams -- one person eases up from the accelerator a bit, the next person taps the brakes, the next person normally applies the brakes, the next person slams on the brakes, etc. etc. Repeat until arrival at the cemetery. While the hearse is traveling at a steady speed (except stopping for traffic signals or train crossings), the speed at the back of the procession is constantly varying anywhere between 50 mph and complete stop.
*groan* Yes!
And, if you're the 22nd car in line, then it almost doesn't matter how capable you are of maintaining a constant speed. Now that I think about it critically, that funeral procession I mentioned being in that went halfway across a major metropolitan area: it really didn't. I guess it just
felt like it
must have been that long, because funeral processions are excruciatingly slow.
Not sure how I feel about funeral processions in general, but I agree that a 90-day sentence is ridiculous.
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 11:18:12 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 17, 2023, 11:12:29 AM
... it is the right thing to do
... we should at least have legal protections for processions
... few things are as vulgar in concept as driving in a funeral procession to the instructions of Karen saying "Turn Left at Main Street."
... the procession itself is a form of unity in the face of loss.
Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 17, 2023, 11:12:29 AM
90 day jail sentence for the wilful and flagrant violation of one seems quite reasonable
Definitely NOT agreed. The punishment seems wholly inappropriate for the crime. A simple traffic ticket, like not yielding to a pedestrian, would be more appropriate.
Well that is 4/5 agreed, not bad and certainly better than Meatloaf could do.
I think of it as 1/2 agreed. The part I disagree with was a doozy.
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 11:28:25 AM
I think of it as 1/2 agreed. The part I disagree with was a doozy.
In other words, there is weighting applied to each individual agreed. Barnacles :spin:
Quote from: kalvado on March 17, 2023, 10:52:07 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 09:43:50 AM
Most people don't even know how to get to the graveyard, let alone how to navigate the maze of one-lane roads inside the graveyard if it's a big one. I've been in a funeral procession a few times, and one of those went into another county, while another transited halfway across a major metropolitan area. Without the police escort, most of us would have gotten lost–at a time of higher-than-usual emotions. So I guess I'm saying I'm not against funeral processions. I'm just against anyone who isn't cross-traffic having to stop for them: they aren't fire trucks, after all.
In NY funeral processions are allowed to disregard red traffic lights. Not really a big deal for 5 cars IMHO.
Once upon a time I got stuck literally in the middle of intersection trying to turn left when light switched, as oncoming looong procession got stalled (20+ cars at least, but maybe 50+). Thanks to a lady who pulled back a bit and let me through....
In New York City, from what I understand funeral processions don't get a police escort because there are just too many for it, but the cars following the hearse are permitted to go through red lights if needed to stay with the hearse, although the hearse itself apparently has to stop if the light turns red as it approaches (primarily because of the safety issue that would otherwise arise). I strongly suspect this is one reason why many people attending funerals in New York City ride in rented limos instead of in their own cars–the theory is that other drivers are more likely to understand, and therefore respect, the line of limos. I remember when my mother's aunt, who lived in Brooklyn, died in 1989 we were not all in limos and someone broke into the procession, which then led to the hearse driver coming to a stop, gesturing at that guy to get out of the line, and yelling at him. For the other two funerals I've been to in New York (my father's mother in Far Rockaway and then my mother's mother in Brooklyn who was buried in the same plot as the aunt I just mentioned), we all did ride in limos and there were no issues with other drivers.
One of the peculiarities I noted in New York is how the funeral procession always goes past where the decedent lived if possible. They don't do that here, though I suppose in the suburbs that's far less practical anyway due to the logistics of everyone looping around a cul-de-sac or similar. (My father was cremated and we had no funeral procession in part because we had to wait nine months for inurnment at Arlington Cemetery.) I have noted that nowadays the prevalence of daytime running lights means that most funeral directors ask drivers to turn on their hazard flashers while in the procession.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2023, 12:20:21 PM
In New York City, from what I understand funeral processions don't get a police escort because there are just too many for it, but the cars following the hearse are permitted to go through red lights if needed to stay with the hearse, although the hearse itself apparently has to stop if the light turns red as it approaches (primarily because of the safety issue that would otherwise arise).
This is my general understanding of how it works. Admittedly, I may not have looked at the actual laws. But my understanding is that a funeral procession may proceed as if it were a single vehicle: if the front vehicle makes it through on a green light, then so do all the other vehicles, even if the light turns red partway through. But a police escort allows for the possibility of the lead vehicle to go through red lights as well.
The most recent funeral procession I was in had two escort motorcycles. One would plant himself in the middle of the intersection to stop cross-traffic, then the other one would race up ahead to the next stoplight, plant himself in that intersection, and the two continued leap-frogging in that way till we got to the graveyard.
Quote from: catch22 on March 17, 2023, 10:55:07 AM
When my sister (who had a wickedly dry sense of humor) passed a few years ago, she left a short list of things she wanted as part of her funeral service. Number one on the list was "No funeral procession. These dangerous things were invented by funeral directors solely to drum up more business for themselves. :) ."
So, I made up maps for the trips between the funeral home, church, and cemetery, and had copies made for everyone. Nobody got lost or had their car t-boned by someone not paying attention at an intersection. And we all got to the cemetery before the hearse did.
you cannot be late for your own funeral gets some new meaning here
.
I've participated in four funeral processions: my paternal grandfather, a grandaunt, a relative of a relative, and my paternal step-grandmother.
For my grandfather's funeral, four matching black GMC Yukons were dropped off in front of his house the morning of the funeral for the family to ride together to the church. (Grandpa was a mover and shaker in the St. Cloud business community, and the dealership paid its respects that way as a favor to the family.) A fifth was dropped off at the church for the pallbearers, and we processed with other vehicles behind the hearse to the cemetery for the entombment service. The funeral home placed flags on each vehicle's fender as they left the church. Standard rules applied, but our route avoided stoplights.
For my grandaunt's funeral, we had a brief procession a couple of blocks from the funeral home to the church. They placed flags on the vehicles, but it was a bit overkill.
For the relative of a relative (my cousin's grandma), the city policy here directed traffic at the stoplights to allow us to go through. I don't remember if the funeral home flagged the cars or not.
My step-grandmother's funeral was similar to my grandfather's, except we didn't have the benefit of matching vehicles to carry the family behind the hearse. The group of people attending was much smaller, and it followed the same route between church and cemetery.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 17, 2023, 11:12:29 AM
The last time I was in Kentucky I encountered a funeral procession and stopped for it, both because that was what I was taught in drivers ED and because it is the right thing to do.
Also noteworthy was the fact that several construction workers on a nearby site stopped work and stood with their hard hats removed for the procession which was nice to see.
All of these things are cultural traditions in rural Kentucky. I don't know that it is taught in drivers ed, since it's been more than a few years since I had it, but oncoming traffic stopping is definitely a thing here.
Quote from: kphoger on March 16, 2023, 12:36:40 PM
I was once flipped off and yelled at for not stopping when a funeral procession went by in the opposite direction in a rural area.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:51:19 PM
... in rural Kentucky. I don't know that it is taught in drivers ed, since it's been more than a few years since I had it, but oncoming traffic stopping is definitely a thing here.
I don't remember exactly where that incident occurred, but I'm pretty sure it was within 50 miles (as the crow flies) of Kentucky.
The one time I ran into one was on I-94 northwest of Minneapolis. They were driving in the center lane and I was unsure of the legality of passing them.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:51:19 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 17, 2023, 11:12:29 AM
The last time I was in Kentucky I encountered a funeral procession and stopped for it, both because that was what I was taught in drivers ED and because it is the right thing to do.
Also noteworthy was the fact that several construction workers on a nearby site stopped work and stood with their hard hats removed for the procession which was nice to see.
All of these things are cultural traditions in rural Kentucky. I don't know that it is taught in drivers ed, since it's been more than a few years since I had it, but oncoming traffic stopping is definitely a thing here.
My mother waxes nostalgic about funerals/wakes before funeral homes became truly established in deep eastern KY. Just huge potlucks in people's homes.
Of course, to my anti-social grandfather, he'd grumble, "Time to go over there and sit with that body."
Quote from: kalvado on March 17, 2023, 06:15:06 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 17, 2023, 01:43:16 AM
When I die I do not want tons of cars blocking traffic in my honor
You're fairly optimistic if you expect enough people to show up so that there are tons of cars.
Well a single SUV constitutes "tons".
Say me, my wife, and my friend Liz are all moving to Las Vegas together. We take three separate cars because we need to move the cars, after all. I am the most comfortable navigating because I am a roadgeek, so the other two cars are following me.
Other than the distance between the start and end points, how is this any different than a funeral procession? What logical reason (i.e. not based on "feelings" or "tradition") is there that my procession doesn't get the same protections against being broken up by stoplights, other cars cutting in, etc. as a funeral procession?
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:30:19 PM
Say me, my wife, and my friend Liz are all moving to Las Vegas together. We take three separate cars because we need to move the cars, after all. I am the most comfortable navigating because I am a roadgeek, so the other two cars are following me.
Other than the distance between the start and end points, how is this any different than a funeral procession? What logical reason (i.e. not based on "feelings" or "tradition") is there that my procession doesn't get the same protections against being broken up by stoplights, other cars cutting in, etc. as a funeral procession?
You're not dead.
Quote from: Rothman on March 17, 2023, 11:50:34 PM
You're not dead.
Which means I'm more likely to be affected if my convoy gets broken up than the guest of honor at a funeral, no?
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:30:19 PM
Say me, my wife, and my friend Liz are all moving to Las Vegas together. We take three separate cars because we need to move the cars, after all. I am the most comfortable navigating because I am a roadgeek, so the other two cars are following me.
Other than the distance between the start and end points, how is this any different than a funeral procession? What logical reason (i.e. not based on "feelings" or "tradition") is there that my procession doesn't get the same protections against being broken up by stoplights, other cars cutting in, etc. as a funeral procession?
Under that theory, the first two vehicles don't need to use turn signals, since the middle and last car know the car in front of them are turning.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2023, 12:15:12 AM
Under that theory, the first two vehicles don't need to use turn signals, since the middle and last car know the car in front of them are turning.
I disagree. Turn signals are also useful for cars in other direction, e.g. you can take a permissive left if the opposing car is also turning left.
There aren't a lot of funeral processions any longer. As I said, I can't remember the last time I have seen one. I don't think there is a chronic problem with them tying up traffic. So maybe they aren't really a problem?
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 18, 2023, 08:53:21 AM
There aren't a lot of funeral processions any longer. As I said, I can't remember the last time I have seen one. I don't think there is a chronic problem with them tying up traffic. So maybe they aren't really a problem?
Live near a funeral home and your chances are much higher. I used to just a few years ago and processions were common. Where I live now, not so much.
Quote from: Rothman on March 18, 2023, 09:10:30 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 18, 2023, 08:53:21 AM
There aren't a lot of funeral processions any longer. As I said, I can't remember the last time I have seen one. I don't think there is a chronic problem with them tying up traffic. So maybe they aren't really a problem?
Live near a funeral home and your chances are much higher. I used to just a few years ago and processions were common. Where I live now, not so much.
I live in an area where there are a whole bunch of (small) funeral homes, such that there's usually one within a mile if you're in or near an area with businesses. I see maybe one every two years.
Quote from: 1 on March 18, 2023, 09:13:48 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 18, 2023, 09:10:30 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 18, 2023, 08:53:21 AM
There aren't a lot of funeral processions any longer. As I said, I can't remember the last time I have seen one. I don't think there is a chronic problem with them tying up traffic. So maybe they aren't really a problem?
Live near a funeral home and your chances are much higher. I used to just a few years ago and processions were common. Where I live now, not so much.
I live in an area where there are a whole bunch of (small) funeral homes, such that there's usually one within a mile if you're in or near an area with businesses. I see maybe one every two years.
Then that means you just live in a town of antisocial, lonely people that die alone.
Quote from: 1 on March 18, 2023, 07:06:08 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2023, 12:15:12 AM
Under that theory, the first two vehicles don't need to use turn signals, since the middle and last car know the car in front of them are turning.
I disagree. Turn signals are also useful for cars in other direction, e.g. you can take a permissive left if the opposing car is also turning left.
You should never make a left in front of another car indicating a right, in case they don't turn right. Liability will always, at minimum, fall on the car turning left.
Obviously people do, but there's a risk involved.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 18, 2023, 08:53:21 AM
There aren't a lot of funeral processions any longer. As I said, I can't remember the last time I have seen one. I don't think there is a chronic problem with them tying up traffic. So maybe they aren't really a problem?
Are you out on the roads where funeral processions usually occur (between local funeral homes or churches and local cemeteries), and during a time when they would be doing the procession (weekdays or Saturdays, 11am-ish)? They're probably more common than you think, but they're going to be fairly localized in.their locations.
Quote from: Rothman on March 18, 2023, 09:15:57 AM
Quote from: 1 on March 18, 2023, 09:13:48 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 18, 2023, 09:10:30 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 18, 2023, 08:53:21 AM
There aren't a lot of funeral processions any longer. As I said, I can't remember the last time I have seen one. I don't think there is a chronic problem with them tying up traffic. So maybe they aren't really a problem?
Live near a funeral home and your chances are much higher. I used to just a few years ago and processions were common. Where I live now, not so much.
I live in an area where there are a whole bunch of (small) funeral homes, such that there's usually one within a mile if you're in or near an area with businesses. I see maybe one every two years.
Then that means you just live in a town of antisocial, lonely people that die alone.
I think its mostly due to the changing nature of funerals. A lot of people will simply go to the visitation, and even if they do stick around for the funeral itself, the burial is oftentimes family only. If there even is a burial because cremation has gotten so popular.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/22/health/cremation-trends-wellness/index.html
There's a funeral home just over half a mile from my house, but I really have no idea how busy things are there these days because I'm not normally out and about on weekdays, on Saturdays I tend to be slow to get moving (it's now just after 10:00 on Saturday and I'm lingering over my breakfast coffee while I make the grocery list and wait for the second load of laundry to finish), and Sunday is not a common day for funerals. So I never really see to what extent they're busy over there.
My wife has a funeral to attend this coming week (her longtime best friend died suddenly), but it's over in Maryland and there won't be a procession to a cemetery because burial is to come later, I guess because it was such a surprise. The decedent doesn't have a family plot or similar because her parents were buried in Arlington.
UD mortality rate is something like 1% annually, a bit higher in past few years.
So a 1 million area has about 10k funerals annually, or 30 daily. Assuming many are daytime and not overlapping with commute, and hopefully not traveling across entire urban area... Not too many to be seen on average
I never learned anything about funeral processions in driver's ed. Seemed entirely an old timer tradition to me.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 18, 2023, 09:46:01 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 18, 2023, 09:15:57 AM
Quote from: 1 on March 18, 2023, 09:13:48 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 18, 2023, 09:10:30 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 18, 2023, 08:53:21 AM
There aren't a lot of funeral processions any longer. As I said, I can't remember the last time I have seen one. I don't think there is a chronic problem with them tying up traffic. So maybe they aren't really a problem?
Live near a funeral home and your chances are much higher. I used to just a few years ago and processions were common. Where I live now, not so much.
I live in an area where there are a whole bunch of (small) funeral homes, such that there's usually one within a mile if you're in or near an area with businesses. I see maybe one every two years.
Then that means you just live in a town of antisocial, lonely people that die alone.
I think its mostly due to the changing nature of funerals. A lot of people will simply go to the visitation, and even if they do stick around for the funeral itself, the burial is oftentimes family only. If there even is a burial because cremation has gotten so popular.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/22/health/cremation-trends-wellness/index.html
Yeah, this. Especially if someone isn't religious or hasn't been to church in a few years, the funeral might consist of
only the visitation.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:30:19 PM
Say me, my wife, and my friend Liz are all moving to Las Vegas together. We take three separate cars because we need to move the cars, after all. I am the most comfortable navigating because I am a roadgeek, so the other two cars are following me.
Other than the distance between the start and end points, how is this any different than a funeral procession? What logical reason (i.e. not based on "feelings" or "tradition") is there that my procession doesn't get the same protections against being broken up by stoplights, other cars cutting in, etc. as a funeral procession?
This sounds like any number of roadgeek meet caravans over the years, especially before the idea of printed maps/directions took hold. Didn't the St. Louis meet of 2015 become unrecoverably separated and different groups went different places?
The whole concept of funerals has changed a lot over the past three years, especially during the time when restrictions were still in place due to that certain virus. There weren't funerals or processions then, really. Only a handful of people were in attendance, they probably could all fit into one or two vehicles, and they probably knew where the cemetery was.
In November, my father-in-law died. We had a private service. The only vehicles that left the funeral home were the hearse and my wife's car. We had a two-car funeral procession with no police escort, and the cemetery was only a couple of miles from the funeral home, so we didn't have a police escort. Still, the hearse had its blinkers on and people pulled over as it approached.
In December, one of my uncles died. The funeral was in Shepherdsville, and the cemetery between Shepherdsville and Louisville. There was a fairly lengthy procession, and my brother was driving and we followed along because we really didn't know where the cemetery was. (I had only been there twice before in my life; when an uncle died in the early 1970s and I have no memory of that, and when my aunt, his wife, died a few years ago.) I don't really remember how many oncoming vehicles stopped; I know several did. Most of the procession was along four-lane KY 61 and a number of vehicles passed the procession as we were only going about 50 mph.
Funerary rites are becoming much simpler or even dispensed with.
In 1983, my paternal step-grandfather died. He had several days of visitations followed by a funeral on a separate day. Twenty years later, my paternal grandma only had one visitation the night before the funeral and a luncheon after. (She died on New Year's Day, and our cemetery doesn't do winter burials, so no graveside service.)
My maternal grandparents both requested no funeral in April 2012 and February 2020. We had a graveside committal service for him with military honors as he was a WW II veteran, but no funeral in a church or funeral home.
One popular option now seems to be holding visitation at the church before the funeral, allowing people to pay respects to the family and then take a seat for the service or head out. My cousin's grandma's family did that, but she did have a procession and graveside service followed by a luncheon back at the church.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:30:19 PM
Say me, my wife, and my friend Liz are all moving to Las Vegas together. We take three separate cars because we need to move the cars, after all. I am the most comfortable navigating because I am a roadgeek, so the other two cars are following me.
Other than the distance between the start and end points, how is this any different than a funeral procession? What logical reason (i.e. not based on "feelings" or "tradition") is there that my procession doesn't get the same protections against being broken up by stoplights, other cars cutting in, etc. as a funeral procession?
1. I've driven a couple of long-distance trips with three vehicles: one was 700 miles each way, and the other was 1100 miles each way and crossed into Mexico. Also, this past year, I was in a convoy of three vehicles that went from here to Boulder (CO) and back, which meant going right through Denver, although I wasn't one of the drivers. Let me tell you, it's a LOT easier to lose a vehicle when there are three of them, compared to just two of them. Cell phones or walkie-talkies come in much handier when there are more than two vehicles. I've been part of one roadmeet, here in Wichita. We managed to stay together fairly well, but we were also a bunch of roadgeeks, so I suspect we were above average at navigation.
2. There's no "logical" reason other than tradition that a funeral procession should be able to get a police escort but a well-attended roadmeet shouldn't. But what are you implying? That the escorts should be abolished just because you don't like the tradition? That's kind of a dumb reason. Traditions are part of our culture.
With regards to #2, I think funeral processions get police escorts simply because they are out of the ordinary. And because they are out of the ordinary, I don't have a problem with them getting special treatment that a couple of people driving somewhere don't get.
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 10:16:52 AM
2. There's no "logical" reason other than tradition that a funeral procession should be able to get a police escort but a well-attended roadmeet shouldn't. But what are you implying? That the escorts should be abolished just because you don't like the tradition? That's kind of a dumb reason. Traditions are part of our culture.
Because it disrupts the flow of traffic. At least with emergency vehicles, anyone going in the same direction can go at a traffic signal, and if it's an ambulance or fire truck rather than a police car, it's essential. From my experience, most emergency vehicles with lights on are ambulances.
A lot of things "disrupt the flow of traffic." My city closes streets a couple times a year for a parade and I have to alter my route occasionally. Is it inconvenient? Sure. But do I complain? No. It's fine.
Funeral processions are a much more rare occurrence and MUCH less disruptive.
This is a bit of a tangent, but semi-related, and not worth starting a new thread for... Is it legal to pass an ambulance on active duty with their lights flashing?
The other night, one entered the highway about 1/2 mile front of me. I eventually noticed that it was not getting any closer or further away - it remained about 1/2 mile away. This went on for about 10 miles or so, after which I sped up to about 80 mph and grew a bit closer. By this time, the flashing lights were getting rather annoying and beginning to play tricks on my eyes, so when the highway widened from two lanes to three, I sped up a bit more and eventually got within a few hundred feet.
At that point, I decided there was no harm in trying to go past. The ambulance was in the left lane, so I stayed in the right lane with the empty center lane between us. I hadn't heard any noise at all until that point, but as soon as I pulled even with the ambulance, I started to hear the sirens. I wasn't sure if the ambulance was directing their sirens at me to stop me from passing, or if I just couldn't hear the sirens until then because of how they're positioned. In any case, I backed off a little bit and resumed a following distance of a few hundred feet. A minute or so later, a car approached and went past doing at least 85 mph (which is not uncommon on this stretch of highway), then moved in front of me and went whizzing past the ambulance. A few minutes later, two more cars did the same thing. I was pretty sure I heard sirens again, but only faintly, so I continued to wonder whether the ambulance was using them intermittently or if I was just hearing them intermittently. A few miles later, I exited while the ambulance continued on its journey, leaving me to wonder if I could have legally gone past.
I never know what to do when there's an ambulance with its lights and sirens coming up in the left lane of a freeway. Keep going in the right lane as usual? Stop on the shoulder? Some half-baked middle ground between the two?
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 11:48:03 AM
I never know what to do when there's an ambulance with its lights and sirens coming up in the left lane of a freeway. Keep going in the right lane as usual? Stop on the shoulder? Some half-baked middle ground between the two?
What I typically see over here is that ambulances on highway don't run sirens when traveling with the traffic. Legally, you don't have to pull over in this case. That just works, if ambulance travels with traffic, speed limit +10-15, people tend to leave some room for ambulance without drama.
What is irritating though, is an ambulance going at speed limit with all those bells and whistles.
Quote from: webny99 on March 20, 2023, 10:54:10 AM
This is a bit of a tangent, but semi-related, and not worth starting a new thread for... Is it legal to pass an ambulance on active duty with their lights flashing?
IANAL, but my educated opinion would be that if you are exceeding the speed limit, then no, it's not legal. Not the act of passing the ambulance in and of itself, but breaking the speed limit.
Lights being in operation on an ambulance gives that vehicle the right to exceed the speed limit. It doesn't give you the right to exceed the speed limit in passing it.
It's legal to pass a cop if the cop is doing less than the speed limit. I've done it before, without issue.
When I was commuting on I-64 to Frankfort years ago, I would occasionally fall into a platoon of traffic that was behind a Kentucky state trooper doing the speed limit. No one wanted to tempt fate by passing him. It's unusual to see a cop driving the speed limit; even if they're not running lights and/or sirens, they typically drive much faster than the speed limit and camp out in the left lane while doing so.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 20, 2023, 02:50:52 PM
IANAL, but my educated opinion would be that if you are exceeding the speed limit, then no, it's not legal. Not the act of passing the ambulance in and of itself, but breaking the speed limit.
Lights being in operation on an ambulance gives that vehicle the right to exceed the speed limit. It doesn't give you the right to exceed the speed limit in passing it.
It's legal to pass a cop if the cop is doing less than the speed limit. I've done it before, without issue.
It's been some time since I've looked at the laws, but isn't it generally not enough for an emergency vehicle to have flashing lights on? Don't they also have to be using an audible siren and be responding to an actual call?
(Note that cops, unlike ambulance and fire truck drivers, can generally break the speed limit while engaging in "official duties" or some vague condition like that, which basically means they can do so whenever they want.)
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 10:16:52 AM
2. There's no "logical" reason other than tradition that a funeral procession should be able to get a police escort but a well-attended roadmeet shouldn't. But what are you implying? That the escorts should be abolished just because you don't like the tradition? That's kind of a dumb reason. Traditions are part of our culture.
I'm implying that either any convoy should be able to get all of the same protections a funeral convoy does, or no convoy should get them. It shouldn't matter what the purpose of the convoy is.
I wonder how illegal it would be to run a business where people pay you to drive a hearse around so their convoy can be a funeral procession.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 20, 2023, 02:50:52 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 20, 2023, 10:54:10 AM
This is a bit of a tangent, but semi-related, and not worth starting a new thread for... Is it legal to pass an ambulance on active duty with their lights flashing?
IANAL, but my educated opinion would be that if you are exceeding the speed limit, then no, it's not legal. Not the act of passing the ambulance in and of itself, but breaking the speed limit.
Lights being in operation on an ambulance gives that vehicle the right to exceed the speed limit. It doesn't give you the right to exceed the speed limit in passing it.
It's legal to pass a cop if the cop is doing less than the speed limit. I've done it before, without issue.
When I was commuting on I-64 to Frankfort years ago, I would occasionally fall into a platoon of traffic that was behind a Kentucky state trooper doing the speed limit. No one wanted to tempt fate by passing him. It's unusual to see a cop driving the speed limit; even if they're not running lights and/or sirens, they typically drive much faster than the speed limit and camp out in the left lane while doing so.
It's OT, but I'll describe what I see on my drives (at least on I-295 in NJ):
During rush hour, if a State Trooper is driving along in the left lane, they're just going up to Trenton to go to work, or at the very least, to a spot to watch traffic in the median (and they usually aren't doing traffic checks during rush hours. They save that for non-rush hour times). They'll want to go faster than anyone else is going.
If they're in the right lane, they're preparing to exit or to pull over. No matter what speed they are going, I've found they are safe to pass. If they are going 65 in a 65 zone, and we're going 70 or 75, we can pass them. They are not there playing gotcha. They are legit waiting to exit.
If it's a municipal cop traveling on a highway during rush hour, they're probably going to some sort of training. Departments seem to have rules about what speed they're allowed to go, and many seem to say they can only go about the posted speed limit. They're going to sit in the right lane and get blown by nearly every driver on the highway. They're not going to pull anyone over.
Now, if it's NOT rush hour, then those travelers tend not to be regulars, and tend to be more wary of troopers and officers, and may be more hesitant to pass them.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 20, 2023, 02:50:52 PM
It's unusual to see a cop driving the speed limit; even if they're not running lights and/or sirens, they typically drive much faster than the speed limit and camp out in the left lane while doing so.
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 02:56:45 PM
(Note that cops, unlike ambulance and fire truck drivers, can generally break the speed limit while engaging in "official duties" or some vague condition like that, which basically means they can do so whenever they want.)
Just pointing out that it's almost unheard of for ANYONE to be driving under the speed limit in the left lane. For some reason people (and I'm talking about the public in general) tend to criticize police for driving faster than the speed limit...at the same time, they would raise holy hell if they were to drive the speed limit, crying that the cops were pacing traffic for no reason and creating a traffic jam.
Quote from: webny99 on March 20, 2023, 10:54:10 AM
This is a bit of a tangent, but semi-related, and not worth starting a new thread for... Is it legal to pass an ambulance on active duty with their lights flashing?
The other night, one entered the highway about 1/2 mile front of me. I eventually noticed that it was not getting any closer or further away - it remained about 1/2 mile away. This went on for about 10 miles or so, after which I sped up to about 80 mph and grew a bit closer. By this time, the flashing lights were getting rather annoying and beginning to play tricks on my eyes, so when the highway widened from two lanes to three, I sped up a bit more and eventually got within a few hundred feet.
You had a good question...until you gave a bad example. You can't question if it's legal to pass someone...driving 15 mph over the speed limit. Of course it's not.
Rephrase the question. Highway is 65 mph. Ambulance is in the left lane with lights on and sirens on going 55 mph in the left lane. You approach in right lane going 65. Can you pass?
Touchy subject. Technically, you shouldn't. You don't know when the ambulance will get over, and you don't want to pass the ambulance while in a blind spot while they start moving over. But also, the ambulance starts creating a traffic jam as traffic bunches up behind it...which creates other issues, including for other emergency personnel that may get stuck in the ensuing traffic.
As for the siren - the siren is usually directed towards traffic ahead of the emergency vehicle. You didn't hear it behind the vehicle because the siren wasn't directed that way. It wasn't directed specifically at you. It was simply out of your hearing range.
I'm on an emergency personnel Facebook page, and one thing I found is that you can't talk to them no way no how. Especially volunteers. Ask them why are they trying to push thru in-between 2 lanes of traffic on a jammed 3 lane highway instead of using the clear wide empty shoulder, and you'll see a bunch of backlash that traffic should move to the shoulder. Yet, when you try to point out that the police just sped by on the wide-open empty shoulder to get to the scene of the accident, you're told that's what they're supposed to do because it's faster. It's a no-win situation with these people that knew-nothing before they joined, and know everything after two training classes.
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 02:56:45 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 20, 2023, 02:50:52 PM
IANAL, but my educated opinion would be that if you are exceeding the speed limit, then no, it's not legal. Not the act of passing the ambulance in and of itself, but breaking the speed limit.
Lights being in operation on an ambulance gives that vehicle the right to exceed the speed limit. It doesn't give you the right to exceed the speed limit in passing it.
It's legal to pass a cop if the cop is doing less than the speed limit. I've done it before, without issue.
It's been some time since I've looked at the laws, but isn't it generally not enough for an emergency vehicle to have flashing lights on? Don't they also have to be using an audible siren and be responding to an actual call?
(Note that cops, unlike ambulance and fire truck drivers, can generally break the speed limit while engaging in "official duties" or some vague condition like that, which basically means they can do so whenever they want.)
A couple of observations.
My office is at the turnoff from the main highway to the road that leads to the hospital. General practice is for ambulances to be running lights and sirens as they come down KY 15 and make the turn at the light, then they turn the siren off for the rest of the way to the hospital. I don't know if that's because the road passes a school, a residential area, and a nursing home and they don't want the noise to disturb people, or what.
In addition to cops, I frequently see ambulances running along the Mountain Parkway without their lights and sirens going, vastly exceeding the speed limit. This is usually on the return trip from Winchester or Lexington back to their home county. I presume it's to minimize the time that they're away from their home base, but they don't have their emergency lights on.
My office is also next door to a funeral home, and I see processions leaving frequently.
Two of the most recent funerals I have attended required several vehicles to make an hour-long drive across the Seattle metro area on a normal weekday. It would have been a futile effort to try and keep to the unwritten rules of processions, given that traffic is to be expected and other people on the road are just as important as you and your goings-on, so they're not required to yield their right of way and time.
Turns out everything works out just fine when people are given clear directions to congregate at the entrance to the cemetery. Doesn't take much to follow signs or phone directions to a clearly-marked cemetery (and most around here are).
Quote from: Bruce on March 20, 2023, 08:35:44 PM
Two of the most recent funerals I have attended required several vehicles to make an hour-long drive across the Seattle metro area on a normal weekday. It would have been a futile effort to try and keep to the unwritten rules of processions, given that traffic is to be expected and other people on the road are just as important as you and your goings-on, so they're not required to yield their right of way and time.
Turns out everything works out just fine when people are given clear directions to congregate at the entrance to the cemetery. Doesn't take much to follow signs or phone directions to a clearly-marked cemetery (and most around here are).
Yes, but the solemnity and unity of the procession is completely lost having people just show up piecemeal. The purpose of a procession is not to keep people from getting lost, although that might be a side benefit.
"other people on the road are just as important as you", no they are not part of a mourning procession, and thus their importance is less. The only people on the road with any priority over a funeral procession (in peacetime) are emergency vehicles which have lights and sirens for that purpose. Soccer moms on their way to the hair dresser can be delayed a few minutes for the dignity of the departed.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 20, 2023, 08:50:56 PM
"other people on the road are just as important as you", no they are not part of a mourning procession, and thus their importance is less.
Unless, of course, those people are also in mourning, on their way to the graveyard, just not doing it in convoy. I don't see how those people are any less important.
Or an expectant mother going into active labor while her husband races her to the hospital. I don't see how that couple is any less important.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 20, 2023, 08:00:43 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 20, 2023, 10:54:10 AM
This is a bit of a tangent, but semi-related, and not worth starting a new thread for... Is it legal to pass an ambulance on active duty with their lights flashing?
The other night, one entered the highway about 1/2 mile front of me. I eventually noticed that it was not getting any closer or further away - it remained about 1/2 mile away. This went on for about 10 miles or so, after which I sped up to about 80 mph and grew a bit closer. By this time, the flashing lights were getting rather annoying and beginning to play tricks on my eyes, so when the highway widened from two lanes to three, I sped up a bit more and eventually got within a few hundred feet.
You had a good question...until you gave a bad example. You can't question if it's legal to pass someone...driving 15 mph over the speed limit. Of course it's not.
Rephrase the question. Highway is 65 mph. Ambulance is in the left lane with lights on and sirens on going 55 mph in the left lane. You approach in right lane going 65. Can you pass?
Touchy subject. Technically, you shouldn't. You don't know when the ambulance will get over, and you don't want to pass the ambulance while in a blind spot while they start moving over. But also, the ambulance starts creating a traffic jam as traffic bunches up behind it...which creates other issues, including for other emergency personnel that may get stuck in the ensuing traffic.
That's fair - I know it's technically not legal to pass an ambulance while speeding because you're speeding, but I was just describing the situation I was in. I was thinking of the question independently of the speed you're traveling - that is, is the maneuver of passing an active ambulance itself grounds for getting cited if a cop saw you doing it?
With that said, I don't think I'd hesitate to pass an ambulance if it really was traveling less than the speed limit on a free-flowing highway. But that's also a fictitious scenario that's hard to envision, because ambulances on duty are almost always traveling as fast as safely possible, and if traffic conditions force them to travel at a slower speed, they would be given right of way to weave through traffic, just as they would be on a surface street. So the question really only comes into play on an empty or nearly-empty highway where they have space to maneuver if they need it, and you can pass them without interfering. And even then, they usually use the left lane, so you should technically probably be leaving the right lane(s) open so they can get over or exit if they need to. As such, I don't think I'd do it unless there was
at least one open lane between us (as there was in my scenario), but just curious as to the legality of it.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 20, 2023, 08:00:43 PM
As for the siren - the siren is usually directed towards traffic ahead of the emergency vehicle. You didn't hear it behind the vehicle because the siren wasn't directed that way. It wasn't directed specifically at you. It was simply out of your hearing range.
That's kind of what I figured, but wasn't 100% sure. It just scared me off a bit at the time since I'd been behind the ambulance for so long without hearing anything.
Quote from: webny99 on March 20, 2023, 10:11:01 PM
With that said, I don't think I'd hesitate to pass an ambulance if it really was traveling less than the speed limit on a free-flowing highway. But that's also a fictitious scenario that's hard to envision, because ambulances on duty are almost always traveling as fast as safely possible, and if traffic conditions force them to travel at a slower speed, they would be given right of way to weave through traffic, just as they would be on a surface street.
There have been plenty of times that I was on an Interstate with an ambulance that had its lights flashing but no siren sounding, and it was traveling at around the speed limit or general flow of traffic. If its siren isn't sounding, then I assume it isn't responding to an emergency. Maybe it's on its way back or whatever. I can only recall maybe one time that I actually ended up passing such an ambulance, because I was going maybe 5 to 10 over the limit, and it was traveling at around the limit. It was in the right lane (or middle of three lanes), lights flashing but no siren sounding. But I don't think I've ever seen one with its siren sounding that wasn't also going plenty fast.
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 09:50:50 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 20, 2023, 08:50:56 PM
"other people on the road are just as important as you", no they are not part of a mourning procession, and thus their importance is less.
Unless, of course, those people are also in mourning, on their way to the graveyard, just not doing it in convoy. I don't see how those people are any less important.
Or an expectant mother going into active labor while her husband races her to the hospital. I don't see how that couple is any less important.
If they are in mourning but not in a procession then they are below the priority of a procession as there is nothing to disrupt for them, while the inverse is not true.
I would expect anyone driving someone in labor, if there was some reason for urgency, to drive as if they had a police escort, namely use of hazard lights and the horn to indicate priority.
But of course, for every woman in labor on the road or other person going to a funeral there are thousands of soccer moms running mundane errands, so this is the edge case of edge cases.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 21, 2023, 01:30:06 AM
If they are in mourning but not in a procession then they are below the priority of a procession as there is nothing to disrupt for them, while the inverse is not true.
Yes there is: their journey to the graveyard.
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 11:02:40 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 20, 2023, 10:11:01 PM
With that said, I don't think I'd hesitate to pass an ambulance if it really was traveling less than the speed limit on a free-flowing highway. But that's also a fictitious scenario that's hard to envision, because ambulances on duty are almost always traveling as fast as safely possible, and if traffic conditions force them to travel at a slower speed, they would be given right of way to weave through traffic, just as they would be on a surface street.
There have been plenty of times that I was on an Interstate with an ambulance that had its lights flashing but no siren sounding, and it was traveling at around the speed limit or general flow of traffic. If its siren isn't sounding, then I assume it isn't responding to an emergency. Maybe it's on its way back or whatever. I can only recall maybe one time that I actually ended up passing such an ambulance, because I was going maybe 5 to 10 over the limit, and it was traveling at around the limit. It was in the right lane (or middle of three lanes), lights flashing but no siren sounding. But I don't think I've ever seen one with its siren sounding that wasn't also going plenty fast.
My interpretation always was lights = emergency, but no special cooperation required; siren = cooperation requested.
You cannot win a lot of time compared a free flow of traffic on a highway. Going Nascar style isn't going to save a lot, and risk would be significant. Bypassing traffic lights in a city, though, can save a lot.
Well, I guess I might as well go ahead and look up the law. This is from the UVC; your state may vary.
Quote from: Uniform Vehicle Code, Millennium Edition
Chapter 11 – Rules of the Road
Article IV – Right of Way
§ 11-405 – Operation of vehicles (and streetcars) on approach of authorized emergency vehicles
(a) Upon the immediate approach of an authorized emergency vehicle making use of an audible signal meeting the requirements of $ 12-401(d) and visual signals meeting the requirements of $ 12-214 of this code, or of a police vehicle properly and lawfully making use of an audible signal only:
1. The driver of every other vehicle shall yield the right of way and shall immediately drive to a position parallel to, and as close as possible to, the right-hand edge or curb of the roadway clear of any intersection, and shall stop and remain in such position until the authorized emergency vehicle has passed, except when otherwise directed by a police officer.
Quote from: Uniform Vehicle Code, Millennium Edition
Chapter 12 – Equipment of Vehicles
Article IV – Other Equipment
§ 12-401 – Horns and warning devices
(d) Every authorized emergency vehicle shall be equipped with a siren, whistle, or bell, capable of emitting sound audible under normal conditions from a distance of not less than 500 feet and of a type approved by the department, but the siren shall not be used except when the vehicle is operated in response to an emergency call or in the immediate pursuit of an actual or suspected violator of the law, in which event the driver of the vehicle shall sound the siren when reasonably necessary to warn pedestrians and other drivers of the approach of the vehicle.
Quote from: kphoger on March 21, 2023, 02:12:47 PM
Well, I guess I might as well go ahead and look up the law. This is from the UVC; your state may vary.
Quote from: Uniform Vehicle Code, Millennium Edition
Chapter 11 – Rules of the Road
Article IV – Right of Way
§ 11-405 – Operation of vehicles (and streetcars) on approach of authorized emergency vehicles
(a) Upon the immediate approach of an authorized emergency vehicle making use of an audible signal meeting the requirements of $ 12-401(d) and visual signals meeting the requirements of $ 12-214 of this code, or of a police vehicle properly and lawfully making use of an audible signal only:
1. The driver of every other vehicle shall yield the right of way and shall immediately drive to a position parallel to, and as close as possible to, the right-hand edge or curb of the roadway clear of any intersection, and shall stop and remain in such position until the authorized emergency vehicle has passed, except when otherwise directed by a police officer.
Quote from: Uniform Vehicle Code, Millennium Edition
Chapter 12 – Equipment of Vehicles
Article IV – Other Equipment
§ 12-401 – Horns and warning devices
(d) Every authorized emergency vehicle shall be equipped with a siren, whistle, or bell, capable of emitting sound audible under normal conditions from a distance of not less than 500 feet and of a type approved by the department, but the siren shall not be used except when the vehicle is operated in response to an emergency call or in the immediate pursuit of an actual or suspected violator of the law, in which event the driver of the vehicle shall sound the siren when reasonably necessary to warn pedestrians and other drivers of the approach of the vehicle.
No contradictions. Siren sounding
when the vehicle is operated in response to an emergency doesn't mean no siren = no emergency. Driver
shall sound the siren when reasonably necessary, which may not be the case on free-flowing highway.
My interpretation is that lights do mean
something, but do not require full
every other vehicle shall yield the right of way level of response.
Quote from: kalvado on March 21, 2023, 01:45:11 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 11:02:40 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 20, 2023, 10:11:01 PM
With that said, I don't think I'd hesitate to pass an ambulance if it really was traveling less than the speed limit on a free-flowing highway. But that's also a fictitious scenario that's hard to envision, because ambulances on duty are almost always traveling as fast as safely possible, and if traffic conditions force them to travel at a slower speed, they would be given right of way to weave through traffic, just as they would be on a surface street.
There have been plenty of times that I was on an Interstate with an ambulance that had its lights flashing but no siren sounding, and it was traveling at around the speed limit or general flow of traffic. If its siren isn't sounding, then I assume it isn't responding to an emergency. Maybe it's on its way back or whatever. I can only recall maybe one time that I actually ended up passing such an ambulance, because I was going maybe 5 to 10 over the limit, and it was traveling at around the limit. It was in the right lane (or middle of three lanes), lights flashing but no siren sounding. But I don't think I've ever seen one with its siren sounding that wasn't also going plenty fast.
My interpretation always was lights = emergency, but no special cooperation required; siren = cooperation requested.
You cannot win a lot of time compared a free flow of traffic on a highway. Going Nascar style isn't going to save a lot, and risk would be significant. Bypassing traffic lights in a city, though, can save a lot.
The Germans would disagree with that.
An ambulance traveling at posted speed with lights on is probably just transporting a non-emergency patient to another hospital. Its lights are on only for safety purposes.
I've never seen an ambulance in a funeral procession. Seems to defeat the purpose.
Quote from: Road Hog on March 22, 2023, 02:29:46 AM
An ambulance traveling at posted speed with lights on is probably just transporting a non-emergency patient to another hospital. Its lights are on only for safety purposes.
I've never seen an ambulance in a funeral procession. Seems to defeat the purpose.
What I don't get is a firetruck in silent pursuit, lights but no siren and driving very fast. Now cops sometimes have to sneak up on the bad boys so I get when I see a police car doing that, but what is a fire going to do, extinguish itself before they get to it?
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 22, 2023, 08:57:26 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on March 22, 2023, 02:29:46 AM
An ambulance traveling at posted speed with lights on is probably just transporting a non-emergency patient to another hospital. Its lights are on only for safety purposes.
I've never seen an ambulance in a funeral procession. Seems to defeat the purpose.
What I don't get is a firetruck in silent pursuit, lights but no siren and driving very fast. Now cops sometimes have to sneak up on the bad boys so I get when I see a police car doing that, but what is a fire going to do, extinguish itself before they get to it?
Firemen are often trained on basic emergency medical care too. They are also often physically stronger than EMTs, so if there's a situation where someone very large and heavy needs help, or there are obstacles in the way like a locked door, then the fire department's assistance can be essential.
It seems to be standard operating procedure in Norman that whenever someone calls for an ambulance, a fire truck is dispatched too, just in case they're needed.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 22, 2023, 10:26:28 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 22, 2023, 08:57:26 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on March 22, 2023, 02:29:46 AM
An ambulance traveling at posted speed with lights on is probably just transporting a non-emergency patient to another hospital. Its lights are on only for safety purposes.
I've never seen an ambulance in a funeral procession. Seems to defeat the purpose.
What I don't get is a firetruck in silent pursuit, lights but no siren and driving very fast. Now cops sometimes have to sneak up on the bad boys so I get when I see a police car doing that, but what is a fire going to do, extinguish itself before they get to it?
Firemen are often trained on basic emergency medical care too. They are also often physically stronger than EMTs, so if there's a situation where someone very large and heavy needs help, or there are obstacles in the way like a locked door, then the fire department's assistance can be essential.
It seems to be standard operating procedure in Norman that whenever someone calls for an ambulance, a fire truck is dispatched too, just in case they're needed.
Yes, all that makes sense. But why the silent pursuit? There is nothing to sneak up on. I can understand an ambulance on a freeway not running the siren the whole time if its just driving with the flow of traffic, but what compels a firetruck to blow through town with no siren?
I interpreted "in silent pursuit" to mean following an ambulance with lights but no siren, which would make sense if the ambulance were doing the same thing.
I've never seen a fire truck running solo with lights but no siren. That does seem weird.
It may be a strange quirk in local ordinances (emergency vehicle sirens not being exempt from noise ordinances, maybe?) or the policy book for the fire department. You might call the fire chief and ask about it.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 22, 2023, 08:57:26 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on March 22, 2023, 02:29:46 AM
An ambulance traveling at posted speed with lights on is probably just transporting a non-emergency patient to another hospital. Its lights are on only for safety purposes.
I've never seen an ambulance in a funeral procession. Seems to defeat the purpose.
What I don't get is a firetruck in silent pursuit, lights but no siren and driving very fast. Now cops sometimes have to sneak up on the bad boys so I get when I see a police car doing that, but what is a fire going to do, extinguish itself before they get to it?
Oh, I thought they were using water and foam to extinguish the fire. Are you sure fire is so afraid of noise?
This made news in my area, but it actually happened out in Scott's neck of the woods.
https://www.wsaz.com/2023/03/21/police-officer-dies-after-funeral-procession-head-on-crash/
As to fire engines responding to EMT calls, some of you all never watched "Emergency."
I'm not going to pretend to be a national expert on when emergency personnel should be using sirens. But at the same time, I'm not sure if people are brought up with the belief that police, emts and fire trucks always use sirens, or if that's what they see on TV and in movies, but quite often the case, sirens are used sparingly. Even lights aren't used when not fully necessary.
For starters...if you've been pulled over...were sirens used? I've been stopped more than I probably should care to admit, but I don't think I've ever been pulled over with sirens. Just lights.
My mother-in-law who lives with us has been taken to the hospital way more times than I wished she has over the past year. Often the ambulance and emts will come with lights flashing, but once they pull up they turn the lights off. Occasionly they leave them on. (Honestly, I wished they turn them off...we're on a small side street with few cars passing by). When they leave, they rarely turn the lights on, especially in the development. They never turn the sirens on. On the main roads, maybe they turn lights on, depending on the driver or her condition. We took her on a few trips last year including one trip where she fell ill during the return trip. We stopped at a rest area where an ambulance met her. Prior to them taking her, they told us they won't be using the flashing lights on the interstate.
We live about 2 blocks from a fire station. They always use lights, but rarely do they use sirens. Maybe when they first leave the station, but that's it. One late night they blasted the sirens about 3am for some ungodly reason as they left, which in itself made that memorable since they never use them, especially at that time of night (and I'll bet they got reprimanded for it). They may use sirens approaching major intersections to warn traffic, but not while driving down the road.
Police - same thing. They'll just drive fast, use lights, or drive fast and use lights. When approaching intersections, especially when they have the red, they'll then turn on the siren, slow down and probably stop (they're supposed to in my state), then quickly go thru and turn off the siren.
During my commutes on the interstate, I'll say it's about 50/50 if the State Troopers are using sirens along with their lights. If they're responding to a lane-blocking crash, they're probably using their sirens. If they're going to a more minor incident or pulling someone over, they're just using lights.
In the city where I work, they're generally using lights but using their sirens or their beepbeepbeebeebeebeep thingy approaching intersections (which, being a city, is quite often).
So, overall, especially in suburban and rural areas, sirens aren't really a thing to be used, unless they're needed to urgently warn others. Which means, if you do encounter an emergency vehicle with lights flashing, just get out of the way. They're still responding to an incident much of the time. It's gonna cost you a whole 5 seconds of your trip to move over. And some day, you're going to be the one needing that assistance and will be glad others extend that courtesy for them, for you.
I work a half-mile from a fire station and they run hot 24-7. They send out an engine along with every EMS call. Never understood that, but lots of other municipal FDs do the same.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 23, 2023, 10:59:15 PM
For starters...if you've been pulled over...were sirens used? I've been stopped more than I probably should care to admit, but I don't think I've ever been pulled over with sirens. Just lights.
Or, if the driver doesn't seem to have noticed the lights, the officer might just flip the siren on for a split-second 'BLOOP!' and then turn it off again.
Regarding police using the siren (or not) when pulling people over, I've observed that sometimes they'll give a quick whoop of the siren if the targeted driver may seem to be unsure he's the target, such as on a busy road like the Beltway where people just try to get out of the cop's way.
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 10:40:49 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 17, 2023, 10:17:47 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 10:10:41 AM
Quote from: 7/8 on March 17, 2023, 09:59:57 AM
In the age of Google Maps, the idea seems outdated. Is it not possible to meet near the entrance of the graveyard and guide people from there?
You seem to think everybody drives around with a sat-nav device.
Well, a cell phone, anyway...
And a dashboard mount? You realize, right, that using your phone for GPS directions falls under the category of cell phone use while driving in some jurisdictions?
Besides which, this is all pretending that everyone has a smartphone, which they don't. I don't. And also that the 84-year-old cousin of the deceased is tech-savvy enough to use Google Maps for directions on the iPhone that her son got for her against her will three weeks ago, and capable of doing so while navigating unfamiliar traffic in the rental car she picked up at the airport.
Here (https://goo.gl/maps/Zs5CvurY6kx5zGQ27) is one 19-mile route I've done as part of a funeral procession. This was approximately 700 miles from my hometown of Wichita. I'd been to the town of Buffalo before, but I didn't know what county roads in the area were paved, I'd never been through Maple Lake at all, and I had never approached that side of Buffalo from the west before. There were quite a few people in attendance with even less knowledge of the area than I had, having come into town for the funeral from places like Montana and Missouri and the Twin Cities. The roads were snowy and slushy that day. It was such a relief to just be able to follow the car in front of us, especially pulling out onto MN-55 and going through the stoplights in town.
What was the logic of this route over the much more simple County Road 35 (to the South)?
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 22, 2023, 08:57:26 PM
What I don't get is a firetruck in silent pursuit, lights but no siren and driving very fast. Now cops sometimes have to sneak up on the bad boys so I get when I see a police car doing that, but what is a fire going to do, extinguish itself before they get to it?
Maybe being sensitive of the disruption in residential areas or where there is little traffic. Fire/paramedic trucks often come down my residential road, and many times they hit the sirens only as they approach the traffic signal a block from me. After going through the intersection, the sirens are off again.