Indirect control cities

[TheStranger]

Sometimes, due to the replacement of a route that once reached the destination, the current numbered route's control city will reflect that of the decomissioned route and not the actual, much nearer terminus of the current route.  The two examples I can think of:

- I-205 for San Francisco (the old US 50 control city), which requires transitions to I-580 and I-80 to get to SF
- I-40 in Arizona for Los Angeles (the US 66 control city), requiring the usage of I-15 and I-10 to get to the LA city limits

However, I know of at least one example that is even more indirect, and signed as such due to proximity to another indirect connection:

- Route 120 west in Manteca is signed for San Francisco from Route 99, requiring one to also use I-5 south, I-205 west, I-580 west and I-80 west!

Any other examples out there of control cities that can only be accessed by taking at least two different numbered routes past the original highway?

[Scott5114]

If I am remembering correctly, the I-40 WB to I-44 WB ramp in OKC is signed as "Tulsa/Dallas". To get to Dallas from that point you'd have to use I-44 to I-240 to I-35 (to I-35E). Pretty pointless, considering most people heading west on 40 would have just taken I-35 SB directly, bypassing downtown.

[TheStranger]

If I am remembering correctly, the I-40 WB to I-44 WB ramp in OKC is signed as "Tulsa/Dallas". To get to Dallas from that point you'd have to use I-44 to I-240 to I-35 (to I-35E). Pretty pointless, considering most people heading west on 40 would have just taken I-35 SB directly, bypassing downtown.

The westbound ramp is specifically signed for Lawton and Dallas:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Oklahoma+City&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.409448,70.576172&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Oklahoma+City,+Oklahoma&ll=35.460775,-97.571136&spn=0,0.004308&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=35.46077,-97.571243&panoid=7lqo-cO9LsrtD1QOIBAnrw&cbp=12,276.44,,0,2.2

At least the Dallas signing is continued when 240 starts (with 44 exiting the mainline, a vestige of its hodgepodge extension in 1982 when 240 used to run on the segment from 40 to here) -
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Oklahoma+City&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.409448,70.576172&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Oklahoma+City,+Oklahoma&ll=35.398985,-97.577262&spn=0,0.034461&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=35.398847,-97.577224&panoid=yRPansHl3rGjm2TSqQyW0A&cbp=12,170.7,,0,2.31

Eastbound on 40, the control city is pretty logical, but westbound, Lawton probably should be the only one mentioned.  (i.e. I-5 north at Route 58 isn't signed for "Bakersfield" since most travelers from the south would have taken 99 by that point)

[Scott5114]

Er...yeah, Lawton, not Tulsa...

[agentsteel53]

how about US-97 in Klamath Falls being signed (quite hilariously) for Weed and San Francisco.

Weed makes sense, as it is the terminus of US-97, and has been so since the beginning.  San Francisco?  Back in the day, you would have had to take US-99 to US-40 to get there (so three hops altogether, including US-97), and nowadays the quickest route is US-97 to I-5 to I-505 to I-80, which is four hops.

[TheStranger]

Weed makes sense, as it is the terminus of US-97, and has been so since the beginning.  San Francisco?  Back in the day, you would have had to take US-99 to US-40 to get there (so three hops altogether, including US-97), and nowadays the quickest route is US-97 to I-5 to I-505 to I-80, which is four hops.

I guess the only way to rationalize it is if 5W still existed (keeping in mind I don't think any of 505 was built when the designation was switched out), thus making it a three-stepper (97, 5/5W, 80) that at least got you to Oakland at the MacArthur Maze after the second step.  But still.

Amazingly, at 355 miles, this out-of-state control city distance is exactly the same as the distance from Ventura (where SF is first signed on 101 north) to SF!

[agentsteel53]

I guess the only way to rationalize it is if 5W still existed (keeping in mind I don't think any of 505 existed when the designation was switched out), thus making it a three-stepper (97, 5/5W, 80) that at least got you to Oakland at the MacArthur Maze.  But still.

how long has that control city existed in Klamath Falls?  Does it date back to the pre-interstate days, or did it come along when 5W was commissioned?

[TheStranger]

I guess the only way to rationalize it is if 5W still existed (keeping in mind I don't think any of 505 existed when the designation was switched out), thus making it a three-stepper (97, 5/5W, 80) that at least got you to Oakland at the MacArthur Maze.  But still.

how long has that control city existed in Klamath Falls?  Does it date back to the pre-interstate days, or did it come along when 5W was commissioned?

I've only been through Klamath Falls via train, ca. 1996...so I can't definitively say much on the vintage of that control city.  The photos here suggest that we have a 1990s retroreflective sign:
https://www.aaroads.com/west/oregon097/us-097_sb_app_us-097b_or-039_02.jpg
https://www.aaroads.com/west/oregon097/us-097_sb_at_us-097b_or-039.jpg

Looking that, I'm honestly surprised that something a lot closer up I-5 (Redding) isn't the second control city instead.

[agentsteel53]

or, Hell, Sacramento, anyone?

I could've sworn I saw a non-reflective-background sign for US-97 Weed/San Francisco in 2006.  Possibly button copy.  It was the overhead, not the side-of-the-road sign. 

[TheStranger]

or, Hell, Sacramento, anyone?

I guess the thinking here is, "Well, SF is only 50 miles further away than Sacramento from Klamath Falls...so might as well sign the more internationally famous city."  Not that I can read the minds of whoever created this!

I could've sworn I saw a non-reflective-background sign for US-97 Weed/San Francisco in 2006.  Possibly button copy.  It was the overhead, not the side-of-the-road sign.  

Does ODOT offer a bridge log like CalTrans does?  I'd be happy to look at that and see the vintage of the button copy sign (the photo link which I just added to the previous post)

[agentsteel53]

speaking of those signs - how about Reno as a control city?  That's Oregon 39, to California 139 (okay, same route, so doesn't count as a hop), to CA-36 to US-395. 

Then, if you obey the billboards for "fastest route to Reno", you actually head north on 395 from Susanville, then take county route A-1 (Wendel Road) over to Nevada, and head down 445 to I-80.

[TheStranger]

speaking of those signs - how about Reno as a control city?  That's Oregon 39, to California 139 (okay, same route, so doesn't count as a hop), to CA-36 to US-395. 

Then, if you obey the billboards for "fastest route to Reno", you actually head north on 395 from Susanville, then take county route A-1 (Wendel Road) over to Nevada, and head down 445 to I-80.

Some variant to get to the "fastest route to Reno" without backtracking:

39/139
299 east to Alturas
395 south to Wendel Road etc.

I guess it's only a two-hopper if one sticks to 395 (a two and a half hopper if one used the County Road A3 bypass of Susanville via Standish)...39/139 to 36 to 395 is 252 miles, while the A1/445 route is 277.

[akotchi]

Signs on U.S. 202/206 in the Bridgewater, NJ area use New York as as the control city for U.S. 22 east.  Getting to New York requires getting onto U.S. 1-9, then onto one of may routes into the city.

[agentsteel53]

I guess it's only a two-hopper if one sticks to 395 (a two and a half hopper if one used the County Road A3 bypass of Susanville via Standish)...39/139 to 36 to 395 is 252 miles, while the A1/445 route is 277.

yeah, it must be the fastest route only from north of where 395 cuts west to head south to Susanville.  I can't remember where the billboard is, but it's southbound on 395.  

that said, I can believe that 445 is the fastest route from a lot of places because - even if Wendel Road turns dirt at the state line - there is absolutely no one on 445 and you can set cruise control to 110.

[Alps]

http://www.alpsroads.net/roads/nj/log/cities.html - every time there's a parenthesis, it indicates that you have an indirect control city in NJ.

[Brandon]

"Chicago" for I-80 requires the driver to leave I-80 to get to Chicago whether it be by I-55, I-57, or I-94.
"Memphis" for I-57 requires the driver to go well past the south end of I-57.
"St Louis" for I-24 requires the driver to go onto I-57 then onto I-64.

[Alps]

Another one I don't see - how about New York for I-84 leaving the Mass Pike?  Couple different ways to go from there...  Then you have New York for I-95 NB south of DC - but of course, you have to leave 95 to get back to 95.

[agentsteel53]

on a related note, New York via turnpikes is signed off the Ohio Turnpike, which happens to be I-80 at the time.  80 would be the quick route to New York, but the Turnpike route is a magical connection to 76, and then the New Jersey Turnpike, which either is, or is not, I-95, and then a route of your choice to get to the city itself.

[huskeroadgeek]

There are a whole bunch of instances where reaching a control city on a route requires just one different road-like where control cities are posted on loops around major cities. Ones that require more than one different road are harder to find. I thought of one-I-55 N in Memphis has both St. Louis and Little Rock as control cities. Reaching Little Rock from I-55 requires travel on I-40 and likely either I-440, I-30, or I-430 to reach Little Rock. Along the same line-I don't know whether it's still this way, but at least as recently as the late 90s, Sam Cooper Blvd. WB in Memphis still had some "pull-through" signage for Little Rock presumably dating back to when it was part of I-40. Now, getting to Little Rock from there requires several turns just to get to I-40 WB.

[6a]

I-70 E in Columbus proper is signed as Wheeling, but just east of town there are signs that add Pittsburgh, which is an I-79 to I-376 detour.  I can't remember the exact mileage, but it wasn't exactly around the corner.

[golden eagle]

New Orleans is signed on I-55 southbound in Jackson, but I-55 stops just west of the Big Easy. To continue on, you must go east on I-10. Same with I-59 starting at Meridian. I-59 also stops just short of New Orleans at Slidell. One must go I-10 west to continue to New Orleans.

Then there's Los Angeles being signed on I-15 in Las Vegas, when L.A. is at least 60 miles west of I-15.

[mightyace]

Do these instances on the Pennsylvania turnpike count?

Both Pittsburgh and Philadelphia are control cities on the turnpike.  However, the turnpike skirts the edge of each metro area.  Now, I-76 leaves the turnpike in Valley Forge to go to center city Philadelphia, so it is a direct control city on I-76.  But, the same cannot be said of Pittsburgh as you must leave both I-76 and the turnpike to get to the city.  (As most of you know, before the last part of I-80S was decommissioned, I-76 followed the current I-376 into Pittsburgh.)

IIRC Harrisburg, Allentown and Scranton are also listed as turnpike control cities.  But, I consider those direct as you get sufficiently close to the cities in each case.  The Northeast Extension actually goes through the city limits of Scranton but has no exits there.
_____________________________________________________________

Now, back to the I-80/I-76 switcheroo west of Youngstown.  The control city for I-80 west is Cleveland, even though you must leave I-80 and the turnpike to get to the city.  The control city for I-76 east is Pittsburgh.  (see above)   And, even the infamous I-80 East control of New York City VIA PENNA is technically not a direct control point as I-80 ends a the foot of the George Washington Bridge on the New Jersey side of the Hudson!

[TheStranger]

For some of the examples provided, a one-hop transition (i.e. Pittsburgh using I-376 from the Turnpike, Memphis from I-57 via I-55) isn't too bad really, I don't consider that too indirect, though it's one thing if you have to do that in the opposite cardinal direction, i.e. Huntsville from I-65.

Two or more hops requires that the driver has a map, or is paying close attention to the control cities at major junctions!

Pittsburgh as I-70's eastbound control city probably dates back to when 70 did run into Pittsburgh, on...that routing of 79 and 376 that is rather indirect, kinda like 75 poking into Metro Detroit instead of the Flint-Toledo beeline that is US 23.

on a related note, New York via turnpikes is signed off the Ohio Turnpike, which happens to be I-80 at the time.  80 would be the quick route to New York, but the Turnpike route is a magical connection to 76, and then the New Jersey Turnpike, which either is, or is not, I-95, and then a route of your choice to get to the city itself.

While it's only a couple of mainline switches, the number switches are numerous:

80 -> 76 -> 276 -> soon-to-be-I-95

That's a three-hop movement, numerically!

Another one I don't see - how about New York for I-84 leaving the Mass Pike?  Couple different ways to go from there...

Even by the "simplest" route one can come up with - 84 -> 91 -> 95 - that's two hops.  If I-84 east of Hartford was still part of Route 15, it would be a two-and-a-half-hopper even then (15 -> Hutchinson River Parkway -> 287 -> 95).

---

Forgot about another California example...

I-580 east is signed for Fresno on one sign near the MacArthur Maze, and then again at the 205/580 split.  (This is despite the fact that 205-120-99 offers an all-freeway route that is almost exactly the same distance as using 580 and then using a surface road at some point to get there!)

Assuming one follows the 580 suggestion that this control city choice offers....the most direct route would be to exit I-5 at Panoche Road (Exit 368) and continue east along Panoche, West North Avenue, South Lyon Avenue, West California Avenue, and then another segment of Panoche Road that feeds seamlessly into Route 180 going east to Fresno. 

Sticking to numbered routes, the minimum would be 580 -> 132 -> 99, though the more obvious route is 580 -> 5 -> 152 -> 99, a three-hop transition!

For that matter, 580's control city of Stockton from the MacArthur Maze (a vestige of US 50 going to Stockton via the former US 48) nowadays requires two hops via 205 and 5.

[realjd]

Chicago on I-65 in Indiana. It doesn't even go to Chicago. The road ends in Gary.

[usends]

This sign comes to mind:
DSCF6170 by usends, on Flickr

That's on I-70, heading west from Denver.  If you stay on I-70, you either take US 6 to I-15 to Salt Lake, or else you take US 50 to I-15.  If you take US 40, that ends shy of Salt Lake, so then you use I-80 the rest of the way.  That sign is a little strange on some other levels, too... I've spent some time ruminating about it on this page:
http://usends.com/Explore/Alt-2-SLC/index.html