The Best of Road Signs

[mjb2002]

Do anyone know if there has ever been a sign with Clearview button copy?

[agentsteel53]

Do anyone know if there has ever been a sign with Clearview button copy?

I don't think such a thing is possible.  they stopped making button copy in 2002, and I thought Clearview came about in 2005.

[hbelkins]

Clearview's been around longer than that, hasn't it?

[vtk]

Clearview was developed in the 90s, and it began appearing on blade signs in Franklin County, Ohio around 2000.  ODOT continued installing button copy signs through 2002, as far as I know the last state to do so.  I think it was around that time Clearview began appearing on regular-production freeway guide signs in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Texas.

So there was, in fact, a time in which both Clearview and button copy were used on new signs in central Ohio – but they weren't the same signs or even installed by the same agency.

In order for button-copy Clearview to exist, someone would have to go to the trouble of designing specifications for exactly where each reflector button should go on each letter, for all of 5B and maybe 4B and 6B as well*.  I'm not sure, but manufacturing Clearview button copy likely would have required fabrication of new forming dies and/or other equipment specialized for the task.

*Yes, the B weights.  The reflector buttons would have a diameter approximating the stroke thickness of the W-weight letters, and be attached to non-reflective B-weight white letters.

[agentsteel53]

California and Arizona also were using button copy in 2002.  One of those states was running out and bought out the last of Ohio's stock, but I cannot remember which state that was.

[hbelkins]

If I'm not mistaken, there are a couple of gantries along or near I-77 in NE Ohio that have both an older button copy sign and a new Clearview sign on the same overhead assembly.

[CL]

2002? Really? If I had to guess when button-copy was phased out completely, I would have said late '80s or early '90s at the latest? But 2002? Hmm. Why did Cali, Arizona and Ohio choose to go with button-copy all the way until then? I'd love to see some photos of these recent button-copy installations.

[Scott5114]

California and Arizona also were using button copy in 2002.  One of those states was running out and bought out the last of Ohio's stock, but I cannot remember which state that was.

I think it was Arizona.

[wriddle082]

California and Arizona also were using button copy in 2002.  One of those states was running out and bought out the last of Ohio's stock, but I cannot remember which state that was.

I think it was Arizona.

Seems like Indiana has quite a bit of newish-looking button copy.  Not quite sure of its age, but I would venture to guess it's early 00's.

Does anybody know what year all state routes within the 465 beltway in Indianapolis were turned over to the city?  That could give a clue.

[PurdueBill]

2002? Really? If I had to guess when button-copy was phased out completely, I would have said late '80s or early '90s at the latest? But 2002? Hmm. Why did Cali, Arizona and Ohio choose to go with button-copy all the way until then? I'd love to see some photos of these recent button-copy installations.

Interestingly, some of the latest button copy installed in Ohio was on I-670's west end, including advance signs on I-70 EB that were replaced just one year later!  http://www.roadfan.com/670signs.html has some pics.  Signage for Exits 1, 1A, 2A, 2B, and the first Exit 3 advance on 670 EB are the button copy that was installed then for the grand reopening between 70 and 315 in 2002.  Signage around the Cap project on 670 is boring reflective but FHWA at least.

It seems like the 2002 installations may have been from plans made before that.  I remember in 2001 driving on the nearly-completed renovations of the easternmost almost-20 miles of I-70 in Ohio and they had already installed the new fully-reflective signs.  Probably the plans for the 2002 installations were from several years before.

If I'm not mistaken, there are a couple of gantries along or near I-77 in NE Ohio that have both an older button copy sign and a new Clearview sign on the same overhead assembly.

Definitely east of Columbus on I-70 there is such an assembly, with the Clearview replacing an old button copy sign that finally lost about a quarter of its face a couple years ago.  Side-by-side button copy and clearview do get your attention, at least if you are into such things! 

Also, there is at least one sign in Akron (exit for SR 8 NB from I-76 EB) that is an old button copy (that managed to escape the 2003 replacement by being too far east, the 2009 replacement by being on 76, not 77, and the 2011 replacement by being too far west) that has a brand-new (overdone) LEFT exit tab in clearview.  They know the button copy sign is there; they removed its lighting as well as all the other lighting on the West Expwy on reflective signs, but they added the clearview tab to the button copy sign anyway.

Regarding Indiana, I was there in the mid-to-late 90s timeframe into the early 2000s and it seemed that button copy was no longer erected then, although INDOT has seemed to only replace it as needed when signs must be replaced or as part of a large project.  I saw a week ago that sadly a bunch of button copy on I-65 near Lafayette was just replaced, sadly.  At least it's with FHWA, not Clearview.

Ohio has been occasionally recycling button copy.  In 2009 they erected a blue "logo" sign on US 30 west of Mansfield for camping at the next exit; it was clearly recycled from another place with other words, but it is nice to see a little button copy on a stretch of freeway that opened in 2005!  Even if it is just that one sign.

[ftballfan]

I think there's button copy and Clearview on the same assembly along I-75 in Toledo.

[CL]

No way. Pictures, or it didn't happen! Do you remember where on I-75? It could be on Street View imagery.

[tdindy88]

Regarding Indiana, I was there in the mid-to-late 90s timeframe into the early 2000s and it seemed that button copy was no longer erected then, although INDOT has seemed to only replace it as needed when signs must be replaced or as part of a large project.  I saw a week ago that sadly a bunch of button copy on I-65 near Lafayette was just replaced, sadly.  At least it's with FHWA, not Clearview.

I don't think Indiana has had any new button copy signs since at least 2000, and for a time of reference I have usually used the reconstruction of I-465 on the east side, which was finished in the first half of the 2000s. All signage along that way was replaced with reflective signage in Highway Gothic font (though the cardinal directions were all in the same size of lettering, unlike newer signs with the first letter being larger.) And even with the moving of the highways to Interstate 465, most of the interchanges involving them have since been replaced with the reconstruction of 465 on the west and northeast sides. I noticed a while ago that Interstate 65 from Louisville up to the Marion-Johnson County line has all had their signs replaced (again with Highway Gothic font.) But that from the county line north through Indianapolis the signage wasn't changed. Not sure if that means there is a planned reconstruction of the route or the replacement simply hasn't taken place yet, either way, time may be running out, since I-70 through the city has been more or less changed.

As for the rerouting of all the highways around the loop, regretfully I don't have the precise year, but the last rerouting to take place, with U.S. 31 and SR 37 was roughly around 15 years ago, somewhere near the end of the 1990s. The other highways were rerouted at earlier points, and I don't think they were in the same year. Of course, someone else may have the more accurate dates for each highway, but maybe that helps.

[J N Winkler]

California and Arizona also were using button copy in 2002.  One of those states was running out and bought out the last of Ohio's stock, but I cannot remember which state that was.

I don't remember it happening quite that way.  The MTR archives has the contemporary threads on the death of button copy.  From memory, Richard Moeur (who still manages guide sign rehabilitations for Arizona DOT) posted in late 2000 or early 2001 to announce that his agency had definitively abandoned button copy.  They had previously cleaned out a major manufacturer of button copy (Zumar) with a major guide sign replacement on (I think) I-17.  Arizona DOT's last major button copy sign replacements included I-8 (California state line-Ligurta) and I-19 (whole length).  Ohio DOT was ultimately the only state DOT left with any substantial stocks of brand-new button copy.  I am not aware that they transferred it to any other states, although some Ohio DOT districts likely put up button copy signs to exhaust existing stocks while others changed immediately to reflective sheeting for foreground elements as well as the background.  Unlike Arizona DOT and many other state DOTs, Ohio DOT designs and programs sign replacements at the district level and district traffic engineers have considerable latitude in what they specify and how they draw up the plans provided there is a reasonable degree of conformity with the Ohio MUTCD, the Ohio DOT Sign Design Manual, and other standards laid down by HQ Traffic Engineering in Columbus.

The first state DOT to roll out Clearview systematically was TxDOT in mid-2002.  In early autumn that year TxDOT, which was then engaged in a major statewide guide sign sheeting upgrade (i.e., "kill all the button copy"), began publishing construction plans for freeway guide sign replacements which showed the signs (pattern-accurate) with Series E Modified but had notations on each sheet saying, in effect, "Use Expressway Clearview instead."  The first construction contract with pattern-accurate sign designs calling for Clearview was an El Paso District job advertised in June or July 2003.  In October 2003 TxDOT promulgated new traffic design standards calling for Clearview for all guide signing statewide.  At that time all of the TxDOT districts were given licenses for Clearview fonts and the majority opted to use them with SignCAD, which for a while was the only major sign design package with robust support for Clearview.  From early 2004, construction plans for TxDOT guide sign replacements showed Clearview more or less exclusively.

FHWA's interim approval for Clearview was not issued until September 2004.  Prior to that time PennDOT had applied at least once (I think twice) for permission to use Clearview, and FHWA initially responded with a refusal.  The relevant correspondence was posted on the ATSSA website at the time, and may still be available there.  My understanding is that at the time it applied, PennDOT had a number of Clearview signs around the state (as, for that matter, TxDOT also did in Texas, notably at the High Five), but these installations were considered experimental and PennDOT districts did not start rolling out Clearview systematically until FHWA approval was in hand.

PennDOT sponsored some of the initial research into Clearview at the PTRC at Penn State, but the primary impetus for federal approval of Clearview was the conclusion of H. Gene Hawkins' study into the comparative legibility of Clearview and Series E Modified at the TTI at Texas A&M.  I also understand that the Clearview typefaces did not settle into their final form until around the time this study was carried out.  Earlier versions of Clearview had thinner stroke widths and attracted criticism from the general public (not just roadgeeks).  The published literature is actually unclear as to whether the test results reported correspond to the Clearview versions currently used on signs.

I believe Michigan DOT didn't start using Clearview until FHWA approval was in hand.  This is hard to check against Michigan DOT construction plans, however, since they were not published online until early 2005.  Most other Clearview-using states, including Illinois and Arizona, did not begin their changeovers until later.

[PurdueBill]

I don't think Indiana has had any new button copy signs since at least 2000, and for a time of reference I have usually used the reconstruction of I-465 on the east side, which was finished in the first half of the 2000s. All signage along that way was replaced with reflective signage in Highway Gothic font (though the cardinal directions were all in the same size of lettering, unlike newer signs with the first letter being larger.)

As an aside, I do recall back in 2002 when the designation of the 465 "spur"/"dogleg" (original 465 before the stretch completing the loop from exits 20-25, whatever you want to call it) was changed to 865 that I was thrilled to see that a distance sign several miles north of there on the SB side of 65 was modified with a button-copy numeral 8 to read "I-865" and the distance, and that they found button-copy lettering to insert "TO" on the existing overhead signs for the exit when they changed from "465 East / 52 East" on two lines to "865 East TO 465 East" with the TO inserted.  It was nice attention to detail on INDOT's part.  Those signs only came down last year with the widening from 865 to Lebanon.

Projects like I-65 north of downtown Indy in the late 90s/early 00s included new reflective signs and the loss of button copy.  Before the rebuild of 465 on the west side, they only replaced certain signs like those related to the airport (new sign for 70 WB to include IND airport, old button copy sign still in place for 70 EB to downtown).  Now they are all new.

As far as the cardinal direction words and stuff, INDOT went through a funky phase in the past decade with some signs with too-large directions and too-small control cities.  Checking out the signs on intersecting roads for I-65/US 52 and just I-65 north of Indy shows a wide range of normal-looking and bonkers signs.  The most recent ones aren't bad.  Some of the ones that were one-offs for single-interchange projects are butt-ugly or distracting....makes you wish they kept the button copy!

Fortunately (imo) INDOT has resisted Clearview and the only Clearview to be seen in the state so far is a couple signs on the Toll Road and some orange signs about speeding in construction zones, which a contractor probably made (as there are specimens of those in Clearview, FHWA, Helvetica.....).  Yes, more Clearview in negative contrast.  How do they get away with that?

[PurdueBill]

While on button copy, Ohio, and so on, I thought of this one on US 30 WB just east of I-75.  It dates to the 1999 opening of that stretch of expressway.  It's a favorite of mine.  Button copy in the letters, numerals, arrows, I-shield outline, border....

[agentsteel53]

too bad the Ohio shield is not button copy.  I don't think they ever bothered to make that outline. 

[vtk]

On Clearview + Button Copy, there are a few signs around Columbus that are full-reflective-sheeting except for the button-copy exit tabs, and I think one or two might be Clearview (in the main sign panel, not the button-copy exit tab).

[ctsignguy]

No, Ohio never did button copy outlines for State route shields.  And the last example of a Ohio US Shield button-copy outline that i know of, came down recently with the massive reconstruction of the I-71/I-670 interchanges

[AsphaltPlanet]

I have always been a little bit partial to Connecticut's fully reflectorized button copy signage:

[Scott5114]

Reflectorized button copy misses the point. Having a dark background allows for the button elements to come out more clearly.

[Ian]

I have always been a little bit partial to Connecticut's fully reflectorized button copy signage:

Same here. Sure they were a pain to read at night, but it was something different. I for one will miss them once they're all gone.

[Takumi]

I really like this font. This is just off I-95 southbound, VA Exit 33. Also nearby are two state-name I-95 shields.

[Quillz]

Looks like Series C to me. Although I've seen a lot of circular shields that use Series B instead.

[relaxok]

why isn't this thread in Traffic Control?  I keep getting confused looking for it there along with the Worst Of.

Edit: that's better