How to find out if a traffic control device is legit?

[empirestate]

How does one find out whether an oddly-located sign or signal on a public roadway was installed according to the appropriate laws and regulations?

For example, I know of a Stop sign that's located in the middle of a block: no intersection, crosswalk or anything else at that location other than a few private driveways. Presumably, some fairly specific studies would need to have been done to allow a sign at that location–how would I obtain those studies and their findings that justify installation of the sign, if they exist?


iPhone

[kphoger]

Sometimes, things like a mid-block stop sign get installed at the specific direction of a mayor because that location is of personal interest.

[Brandon]

Sometimes, things like a mid-block stop sign get installed at the specific direction of a mayor because that location is of personal interest.

However, if there is no engineering study, and no warrants for the stop sign, it may be legally challengeable and therefore subject to removal.

[empirestate]

Sometimes, things like a mid-block stop sign get installed at the specific direction of a mayor because that location is of personal interest.

However, if there is no engineering study, and no warrants for the stop sign, it may be legally challengeable and therefore subject to removal.

Well, exactly. So how does one locate the study? Where must these things be submitted, to the state? FHWA? or just a file cabinet at town hall?


iPhone

[Brandon]

Sometimes, things like a mid-block stop sign get installed at the specific direction of a mayor because that location is of personal interest.

However, if there is no engineering study, and no warrants for the stop sign, it may be legally challengeable and therefore subject to removal.

Well, exactly. So how does one locate the study? Where must these things be submitted, to the state? FHWA? or just a file cabinet at town hall?

FOIA the municipality, county, state agency in question (be it a municipal street, county highway, or state highway).

[Joe The Dragon]

How does one find out whether an oddly-located sign or signal on a public roadway was installed according to the appropriate laws and regulations?

For example, I know of a Stop sign that's located in the middle of a block: no intersection, crosswalk or anything else at that location other than a few private driveways. Presumably, some fairly specific studies would need to have been done to allow a sign at that location–how would I obtain those studies and their findings that justify installation of the sign, if they exist?


iPhone

most stop signs and speed limits in parking lots

[empirestate]

How does one find out whether an oddly-located sign or signal on a public roadway was installed according to the appropriate laws and regulations?

For example, I know of a Stop sign that's located in the middle of a block: no intersection, crosswalk or anything else at that location other than a few private driveways. Presumably, some fairly specific studies would need to have been done to allow a sign at that location–how would I obtain those studies and their findings that justify installation of the sign, if they exist?


iPhone

most stop signs and speed limits in parking lots

...yes?


iPhone

[Scott5114]

How does one find out whether an oddly-located sign or signal on a public roadway was installed according to the appropriate laws and regulations?

For example, I know of a Stop sign that's located in the middle of a block: no intersection, crosswalk or anything else at that location other than a few private driveways. Presumably, some fairly specific studies would need to have been done to allow a sign at that location–how would I obtain those studies and their findings that justify installation of the sign, if they exist?


iPhone

most stop signs and speed limits in parking lots

...yes?

...are things that dragons like Joe here can just melt with their firebreath, so they don't have to go through the process of legally challenging them.

Come on, man, it's not fair to make Joe type all that out for you when it's that obvious. It's really difficult using a keyboard with those talons.

[US 89]

How does one find out whether an oddly-located sign or signal on a public roadway was installed according to the appropriate laws and regulations?

For example, I know of a Stop sign that's located in the middle of a block: no intersection, crosswalk or anything else at that location other than a few private driveways. Presumably, some fairly specific studies would need to have been done to allow a sign at that location–how would I obtain those studies and their findings that justify installation of the sign, if they exist?


iPhone

most stop signs and speed limits in parking lots

...yes?

...are things that dragons like Joe here can just melt with their firebreath, so they don't have to go through the process of legally challenging them.

Come on, man, it's not fair to make Joe type all that out for you when it's that obvious. It's really difficult using a keyboard with those talons.

I literally laughed out loud 

[Mccojm]

How does one find out whether an oddly-located sign or signal on a public roadway was installed according to the appropriate laws and regulations?

For example, I know of a Stop sign that's located in the middle of a block: no intersection, crosswalk or anything else at that location other than a few private driveways. Presumably, some fairly specific studies would need to have been done to allow a sign at that location–how would I obtain those studies and their findings that justify installation of the sign, if they exist?


iPhone

speaking from my little stint in traffic and safety here with NYSDOT,  I just learned that every sign on NYSDOT maintained roads is entered into state law.  If the sign is not in the state law, it can be questioned in lawsuits and violations thrown out.  In the cases that I was told about, if the sign is not written into law then it usually gets removed through work order to maintenance or contractor for large signs. If any sign was placed and is in the law then a study was usually done to warrant it or of course a politician demanded it because rules dont apply.  I would do as already mentioned, inquire the local municipality who controls this roadway and file a FOIL request on that sign.

[J N Winkler]

As others have pointed out, regulatory signs placed on public roadways need to be backed by paper.  In Wichita, speed limits are written into the city ordinances.

What I don't know is whether a mismatch between paper and the field always gives you a get-out-of-jail-free card.  In Britain it does, but in the US I think it is at least conceptually possible for a state to establish a presumption that a sign must be obeyed even if it is installed without written authority or some aspect of its placement or design violates the traffic manual applicable to the jurisdiction.

[empirestate]

As others have pointed out, regulatory signs placed on public roadways need to be backed by paper.  In Wichita, speed limits are written into the city ordinances.

Right, but my question is, how does one locate that paper? A couple people mentioned FOI requests; is that really the simplest option? Or are these things routinely catalogued somehow? (And does the answer, as I easily suspect, depend mostly on the specific municipality or government in question?)

From a practical viewpoint, if I were to contact the municipality, who would I ask for and what information would I request?



iPhone

[Scott5114]

Before filing a FOIA request, it's probably better to just call up the traffic division of the municipality and ask informally about the sign. In many cases, you can get the documents you need by just asking, a lot easier than you could filing a FOIA request. Only if you experience resistance, runaround, or don'tgiveashitism should you use the FOIA. FOIA requests are a lot more work for you and the government because they have to document that they received your request, how they handled it, etc. This can result in you getting billed for their time.

This being 2017, you can also email or contact the city through their Facebook page and be directed to the appropriate person. Email has the benefit of being in writing, so if the agency fails to comply with FOIA or other open-records laws, or acknowledges that the sign was posted against policy, you have written documentation of that occurring that you could use to legally challenge the agency.

I've never dealt with a municipal streets division, but I've contacted four state-level road organizations through email. KTA and MoDOT actively helped get me the information I needed (MoDOT went so far as to have their historian in Jefferson City call me on the phone), KDOT did not acknowledge my email but quietly issued a change order for the issue I raised to them, and OkDOT blatantly ignored me.

[kphoger]

In Wheaton (IL) back in 2005 or so, I was able to look through the city code at the public library.  Plus, you might be able to find an online version.  For example, here is a link to the Wichita speed limits.

[J N Winkler]

Bel Aire, Kansas also has stop and yield sign locations written into its municipal code:

Section of compiled code dealing with speed limits, stop signs, yield signs, etc.

Scott5411 and Kphoger have good advice--the starting point is some online and, if necessary, in-person library research to establish what is in the municipal code and how the installation comports with MUTCD requirements.  Then, if the situation is not inherently adversarial (e.g., you are not looking to have a ticket overturned for running this particular stop sign), you can try an informal request and see what comes back.

The specific case mentioned in the OP might be tricky because the stop sign in question is not at a crosswalk or intersection approach and might have been erected for speed control, which the MUTCD explicitly forbids, though as a guidance rather than a standard statement (the same level of prohibition that is applied to, e.g., mixing city names and street names on freeway guide signs).  If I understand the MUTCD stop sign provisions correctly, the decision to place a stop sign is based on engineering judgment (a type of informed intuition for which the MUTCD does not lay down documentation requirements), but a decision to place the stop sign on the higher-volume roadway should (not must) be justified by an engineering study.