I saw a thread a few years old on this so I figured I'd start a fresh one. Apologies if there is a more recent one.
Anyway, as a former VA resident, I'm curious to know if there's any recent news or proposals for a new Potomac crossing between 495 and Leesburg?
I don't think there's any recent news about that, I suspect such a bridge would still be opposed by the local community.
Quote from: ran4sh on August 04, 2021, 01:09:34 AM
I don't think there's any recent news about that, I suspect such a bridge would still be opposed by the local community.
a collection of Montgomery County, Maryland NIMBYS, civic activist obstructionists, environmentalist obstructionists, anti-highway/pro congestion obstructionists and promoters of the Montgomery County Agricultural Reserve.
FTFY.
There is conventional wisdom that everyone in Montgomery County is opposed to such a project and that everyone is in favor of public transit - and say that the County Council has made transit "a priority." Most residents of Montgomery County do not make transit a priority and do not use public transit to get to and from work (according to Census Bureau ACS) - and they never have.
The groups and persons mentioned above loudly proclaim opposition to new river crossings whenever they get a chance, but it has never been before the voters of Montgomery County. Everyone was supposed to have been in favor of not building MD-200 (ICC) and removing it from planning maps, but that was built anyway over those same always loud and always angry groups raising objections - at the end when an ICC FEIS was approved, all of their objections had been addressed in a very long document, but they filed a federal lawsuit anyway, which was dismissed after about a year.
EDIT: It is also important to note that there once plans for an Outer Beltway crossing of the Potomac River between the I-495 American Legion Bridge and White's Ferry - the location shifted around several times, and most recently was proposed for Blockhouse Point (location (https://www.google.com/maps/place/39%C2%B003'34.7%22N+77%C2%B018'58.3%22W/@39.0596441,-77.3512209,13z/data=!4m13!1m6!3m5!1s0x0:0x43bf6fc344585ed9!2sBlockhouse+Point+Conservation+Park+%26+Trails!8m2!3d39.062672!4d-77.3065892!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d39.0596396!4d-77.3162022)). That was cancelled in the 1970's when hysteria over "growth" was at its peak in Montgomery County under the leadership of the late Idamae Garrott, a longtime Montgomery County politician, who never met a highway project she did not wish to cancel (she was also anti-all-new-development). The current Montgomery County Executive, Marc Elrich, is a direct political heir to Idamae Garrott.
It is important to note further that, even if there wasn't the opposition on the Maryland side, there is no clear right-of-way anymore on the Virginia side of the river (and hasn't been for a couple decades) to connect to either 28 or Fairfax County Pkwy, and plowing through the neighborhoods and developments to make such connections would most likely create NIMBY opposition on the Virginia side as well.
All recent proposals I can think of right now are all in fictional highways :sombrero:
Quote from: froggie on August 04, 2021, 01:57:27 PM
It is important to note further that, even if there wasn't the opposition on the Maryland side, there is no clear right-of-way anymore on the Virginia side of the river (and hasn't been for a couple decades) to connect to either 28 or Fairfax County Pkwy, and plowing through the neighborhoods and developments to make such connections would most likely create NIMBY opposition on the Virginia side as well.
I can think of ONE location where people on the Virginia side might not mind it so much as a general matter, although I'm not sure how the road would be configured to reach that location without causing NIMBY issues–but, to be clear, the NIMBY issues would not be with the location itself. The location? Ramming the road through Trump National Golf Club. It'd probably involve extending Lowes Island Boulevard to connect to a bridge.
Quote from: froggie on August 04, 2021, 01:57:27 PM
It is important to note further that, even if there wasn't the opposition on the Maryland side, there is no clear right-of-way anymore on the Virginia side of the river (and hasn't been for a couple decades) to connect to either 28 or Fairfax County Pkwy, and plowing through the neighborhoods and developments to make such connections would most likely create NIMBY opposition on the Virginia side as well.
Looks like there is some ROW here if you extend 28 slightly to the NW, but it would have to straddle Broad Run creek:
Dropped pin
https://goo.gl/maps/q5DFRKPZ4QuFBVy28
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 04, 2021, 02:04:57 PM
Quote from: froggie on August 04, 2021, 01:57:27 PM
It is important to note further that, even if there wasn't the opposition on the Maryland side, there is no clear right-of-way anymore on the Virginia side of the river (and hasn't been for a couple decades) to connect to either 28 or Fairfax County Pkwy, and plowing through the neighborhoods and developments to make such connections would most likely create NIMBY opposition on the Virginia side as well.
I can think of ONE location where people on the Virginia side might not mind it so much as a general matter, although I'm not sure how the road would be configured to reach that location without causing NIMBY issues–but, to be clear, the NIMBY issues would not be with the location itself. The location? Ramming the road through Trump National Golf Club. It'd probably involve extending Lowes Island Boulevard to connect to a bridge.
And then, it would connect nicely to MD 112 / MD 190 on the Maryland side...
Washington Post Letter to the Editor: Make the Intercounty Connector an outer belt (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/letters-to-the-editor/make-the-intercounty-connector-an-outer-belt/2021/08/05/3edd2eee-f3b3-11eb-a636-18cac59a98dc_story.html)
QuoteRegarding the July 30 editorial "Traffic Armageddon averted?" :
QuoteMore lanes on the Cabin John Bridge would be nice, but the Beltway is overloaded everywhere, for all 360 degrees around the circle. Toll lanes are a temporary solution.
QuoteWe need a Potomac River crossing farther out – a sort of "outer belt." The Intercounty Connector in Maryland feebly terminates as the "Sam Eig Highway" for a short distance west of Interstate 270. The Intercounty Connector should be extended west, crossing the Potomac and joining Virginia Route 28. That would be the way to avoid Armageddon later on.
Quote from: Evan_Th on August 04, 2021, 04:01:20 PM
And then, it would connect nicely to MD 112 / MD 190 on the Maryland side...
MD-112 and MD-190 could not ever handle the volume of traffic that would cross such a bridge, even as a tolled crossing. They are both two lane undivided rural roads.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 06, 2021, 03:20:51 AM
Washington Post Letter to the Editor: Make the Intercounty Connector an outer belt (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/letters-to-the-editor/make-the-intercounty-connector-an-outer-belt/2021/08/05/3edd2eee-f3b3-11eb-a636-18cac59a98dc_story.html)
QuoteRegarding the July 30 editorial “Traffic Armageddon averted?”:
QuoteMore lanes on the Cabin John Bridge would be nice, but the Beltway is overloaded everywhere, for all 360 degrees around the circle. Toll lanes are a temporary solution.
QuoteWe need a Potomac River crossing farther out — a sort of “outer belt.” The Intercounty Connector in Maryland feebly terminates as the “Sam Eig Highway” for a short distance west of Interstate 270. The Intercounty Connector should be extended west, crossing the Potomac and joining Virginia Route 28. That would be the way to avoid Armageddon later on.
If a new number is needed for that outer belt, I suggest I-370, or even better, I-366 :bigass:
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 06, 2021, 03:22:47 AM
Quote from: Evan_Th on August 04, 2021, 04:01:20 PM
And then, it would connect nicely to MD 112 / MD 190 on the Maryland side...
MD-112 and MD-190 could not ever handle the volume of traffic that would cross such a bridge, even as a tolled crossing. They are both two lane undivided rural roads.
I assume they meant with one of those routes being upgraded.
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 06, 2021, 11:38:19 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 06, 2021, 03:20:51 AM
Washington Post Letter to the Editor: Make the Intercounty Connector an outer belt (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/letters-to-the-editor/make-the-intercounty-connector-an-outer-belt/2021/08/05/3edd2eee-f3b3-11eb-a636-18cac59a98dc_story.html)
QuoteRegarding the July 30 editorial "Traffic Armageddon averted?" :
QuoteMore lanes on the Cabin John Bridge would be nice, but the Beltway is overloaded everywhere, for all 360 degrees around the circle. Toll lanes are a temporary solution.
QuoteWe need a Potomac River crossing farther out – a sort of "outer belt." The Intercounty Connector in Maryland feebly terminates as the "Sam Eig Highway" for a short distance west of Interstate 270. The Intercounty Connector should be extended west, crossing the Potomac and joining Virginia Route 28. That would be the way to avoid Armageddon later on.
If a new number is needed for that outer belt, I suggest I-370, or even better, I-366 :bigass:
i know you're joking, but SR 28 in VA isn't up to Interstate standards. particularly, between SR 267 and 7, exits are packed far too closely together, leading to tons of weaving. (source: was my daily commute pre-pandemic)
^ That may be an operational issue, but that doesn't disqualify it from interstate standards.
Quote from: odditude on August 09, 2021, 06:36:54 PM
i know you're joking, but SR 28 in VA isn't up to Interstate standards. particularly, between SR 267 and 7, exits are packed far too closely together, leading to tons of weaving. (source: was my daily commute pre-pandemic)
https://www.virginiadot.org/projects/northernvirginia/rt_28_dtr_greenway_study.asp
https://www.virginiadot.org/projects/resources/NorthernVirginia/Rt28DTRGreenway/Preferred_Alternative.pdf
This project, assuming it gets funded at some point, could help address the worst of those issues. My hunch is that Virginia will try and get it packaged into an eventual VA-28 PP3 HO/T lanes deal similarly to how the VA-28 interchange overall was funded as part of the I-66 HO/T lanes deal.
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 09, 2021, 06:58:48 PM
^ That may be an operational issue, but that doesn't disqualify it from interstate standards.
Yes, ramp spacing would be a disqualification.
Quote from: froggie on August 10, 2021, 11:07:00 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 09, 2021, 06:58:48 PM
^ That may be an operational issue, but that doesn't disqualify it from interstate standards.
Yes, ramp spacing would be a disqualification.
I highly doubt the FHWA or AASHTO would decline such a designation solely on the basis a couple interchanges are only 3/4 mile apart, if all other features of the roadway meet interstate standards.
Sure, design exceptions could be pursued. But we were talking about Interstate standards. And that short of ramp spacing (especially between the DTR and Ox Rd) does not meet such.
The widening of the American legion bridge will stave off the need for now, but I think an outer beltway is just an inevitability.
Would building a deep-bored tunnel across the Potomac work? I know it would be expensive, but I don't see them building any new above-ground crossings over the Potomac.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 24, 2021, 10:12:09 PM
Would building a deep-bored tunnel across the Potomac work? I know it would be expensive, but I don't see them building any new above-ground crossings over the Potomac.
Tunneling under the Potomac wouldn't solve the problem, unless
maybe if it came with very long (about a dozen miles) and expensive tunnels for the approach roads (say, between VA 7 and I-270), to avoid residents anywhere near the river who don't want a freeway impacting their neighborhoods.
Quote from: kernals12 on August 24, 2021, 07:43:16 PM
The widening of the American legion bridge will stave off the need for now, but I think an outer beltway is just an inevitability.
So long as Montgomery County holds the most clout, it's probably a neverability.
Quote from: famartin on August 25, 2021, 12:08:25 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on August 24, 2021, 07:43:16 PM
The widening of the American legion bridge will stave off the need for now, but I think an outer beltway is just an inevitability.
So long as Montgomery County holds the most clout, it's probably a neverability.
The state's forced their hand on the ICC and now the 270 toll lanes, clearly if they really wanted a Northeast Potomac crossing, they could win a fight with the county.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 24, 2021, 10:12:09 PM
Would building a deep-bored tunnel across the Potomac work? I know it would be expensive, but I don't see them building any new above-ground crossings over the Potomac.
There is no point in tunneling under a stretch of river that has absolutely zero ships navigating it.
Quote from: kernals12 on August 25, 2021, 12:14:24 AM
Quote from: famartin on August 25, 2021, 12:08:25 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on August 24, 2021, 07:43:16 PM
The widening of the American legion bridge will stave off the need for now, but I think an outer beltway is just an inevitability.
So long as Montgomery County holds the most clout, it's probably a neverability.
The state's forced their hand on the ICC and now the 270 toll lanes, clearly if they really wanted a Northeast Potomac crossing, they could win a fight with the county.
They could, but at what cost? MoCo in particular would litigate it into oblivion (in an area with very deep pockets). But even if that were overcome, both sides of the Potomac have VERY EXPENSIVE real-estate that would need to be acquired in order to build an outer beltway. This is quite possibly a case where ROW costs exceed construction costs.
Quote from: oscar on August 24, 2021, 11:36:15 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 24, 2021, 10:12:09 PM
Would building a deep-bored tunnel across the Potomac work? I know it would be expensive, but I don't see them building any new above-ground crossings over the Potomac.
Tunneling under the Potomac wouldn't solve the problem, unless maybe if it came with very long (about a dozen miles) and expensive tunnels for the approach roads (say, between VA 7 and I-270), to avoid residents anywhere near the river who don't want a freeway impacting their neighborhoods.
I seem to recall that was one of the reasons a Woodrow Wilson Tunnel did not advance as a proposal for replacing the old Wilson Bridge–the tunnel would have had to have been far too long on both sides of the river in order to allow for a sufficiently gentle grade to keep traffic moving at a reasonable speed (primarily due to truck traffic), and the problem would have been exacerbated on the Maryland side due to the slope immediately east of the river. The same issue was cited as one of a number of reasons for rejecting a high-level bridge that would have eliminated the need for a drawbridge–I read somewhere that the uphill grade for a high-level bridge would have had to have started near the Telegraph Road interchange in Virginia and would have exponentially increased the cost of the bridge (not to mention the visual impact to the historic areas in Old Town).
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 25, 2021, 09:58:03 AM
Quote from: oscar on August 24, 2021, 11:36:15 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 24, 2021, 10:12:09 PM
Would building a deep-bored tunnel across the Potomac work? I know it would be expensive, but I don't see them building any new above-ground crossings over the Potomac.
Tunneling under the Potomac wouldn't solve the problem, unless maybe if it came with very long (about a dozen miles) and expensive tunnels for the approach roads (say, between VA 7 and I-270), to avoid residents anywhere near the river who don't want a freeway impacting their neighborhoods.
I seem to recall that was one of the reasons a Woodrow Wilson Tunnel did not advance as a proposal for replacing the old Wilson Bridge–the tunnel would have had to have been far too long on both sides of the river in order to allow for a sufficiently gentle grade to keep traffic moving at a reasonable speed (primarily due to truck traffic), and the problem would have been exacerbated on the Maryland side due to the slope immediately east of the river. The same issue was cited as one of a number of reasons for rejecting a high-level bridge that would have eliminated the need for a drawbridge–I read somewhere that the uphill grade for a high-level bridge would have had to have started near the Telegraph Road interchange in Virginia and would have exponentially increased the cost of the bridge (not to mention the visual impact to the historic areas in Old Town).
The other issue with a high bridge over the Potomac River between Alexandria and Oxon Hill beyond the long "uphill" climb on the Virginia approach was that such structure would have really been a hulking presence over Old Town Alexandria, since the navigation channel is near the Alexandria shore.
As a comparison, consider that the WPL (Chesapeake Bay) Bridge has 186 feet (57 meters) of clearance over mean sea level between the suspension towers, and that most of the buildings in Old Town are maybe four stories tall (this is not Condo Canyon), though the Coast Guard requires 135 feet (about 41 m) on the Potomac River, so a high bridge would not be quite as high as the WPL.
But by building a draw span, that made the height requirement much, much lower. I am sure that the FAA was quite happy with a lower span too, given the amount or traffic into DCA most days.