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Corridor H

Started by CanesFan27, September 20, 2009, 03:01:17 PM

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NE2

Quote from: hbelkins on January 16, 2012, 05:01:07 PM
Quote from: NE2 on January 16, 2012, 08:06:48 AM
Only if you count Louisville as being in the Midwest. If you're going anywhere west of St. Louis, I-270 to I-70 is shorter (and probably has better grades).

Not really. I-70 makes that northward jaunt to Indianapolis, whereas I-64 is a straighter shot.
And I-79 winds through the mountains. According to Google Maps, from St. Louis to Washington, DC:
*I-70/270: 827 miles
*I-70/79/68/70/270: 835 miles
*I-70/US 33/D/I-79/68/70/270: 845 miles
*I-70/US 35/D/I-79/68/70/270: 847 miles
*I-64/79/H/I-66: 848 miles (using US 219-WV 93-Greenland Gap to fill the gap)
*I-70/US 33/D/I-79/H/I-66: 862 miles
*I-70/US 35/D/I-79/H/I-66: 864 miles
*I-70/D/I-79/68/70/270: 863 miles
*I-64/71/D/I-79/68/70/270: 869 miles
*I-64/79/68/70/270: 872 miles
*I-64/81/66: 879 miles

Personally, if I were making the drive, I'd probably go H one way and I-70 the other. And there are a fair number of decent alternates in the middle (such as cutting down to D on I-74 or US 33). Hell, I could probably choose a route based on where I'd be during rush hour.

But it's clear that Corridor H won't provide any significant advantage over the current routes.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".


Beltway

Quote from: NE2 on January 16, 2012, 06:09:32 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 16, 2012, 05:01:07 PM
Quote from: NE2 on January 16, 2012, 08:06:48 AM
Only if you count Louisville as being in the Midwest. If you're going anywhere west of St. Louis, I-270 to I-70 is shorter (and probably has better grades).

Not really. I-70 makes that northward jaunt to Indianapolis, whereas I-64 is a straighter shot.
And I-79 winds through the mountains. According to Google Maps, from St. Louis to Washington, DC:
*I-70/270: 827 miles
*I-70/79/68/70/270: 835 miles
*I-70/US 33/D/I-79/68/70/270: 845 miles
*I-70/US 35/D/I-79/68/70/270: 847 miles
*I-64/79/H/I-66: 848 miles (using US 219-WV 93-Greenland Gap to fill the gap)
*I-70/US 33/D/I-79/H/I-66: 862 miles
*I-70/US 35/D/I-79/H/I-66: 864 miles
*I-70/D/I-79/68/70/270: 863 miles
*I-64/71/D/I-79/68/70/270: 869 miles
*I-64/79/68/70/270: 872 miles
*I-64/81/66: 879 miles

Personally, if I were making the drive, I'd probably go H one way and I-70 the other. And there are a fair number of decent alternates in the middle (such as cutting down to D on I-74 or US 33). Hell, I could probably choose a route based on where I'd be during rush hour.

But it's clear that Corridor H won't provide any significant advantage over the current routes.

29 miles shorter than I-64/81/66, according to your figures.  That is significant.  Avoiding 110 miles of I-81 is rather significant as well.

With regard to I-70, as HB said (also very significant) --

Plus with I-70 you have to deal with:

1.) Indianapolis
2.) Columbus
3.) Wheeling
4.) The substandard portion between Washington and New Stanton
5.) Tolls on the Turnpike
6.) Breezewood

http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Alps

Quote from: Beltway on January 16, 2012, 08:43:36 PM
Quote from: NE2 on January 16, 2012, 06:09:32 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 16, 2012, 05:01:07 PM
Quote from: NE2 on January 16, 2012, 08:06:48 AM
Only if you count Louisville as being in the Midwest. If you're going anywhere west of St. Louis, I-270 to I-70 is shorter (and probably has better grades).

Not really. I-70 makes that northward jaunt to Indianapolis, whereas I-64 is a straighter shot.
And I-79 winds through the mountains. According to Google Maps, from St. Louis to Washington, DC:
*I-70/270: 827 miles
*I-70/79/68/70/270: 835 miles
*I-70/US 33/D/I-79/68/70/270: 845 miles
*I-70/US 35/D/I-79/68/70/270: 847 miles
*I-64/79/H/I-66: 848 miles (using US 219-WV 93-Greenland Gap to fill the gap)
*I-70/US 33/D/I-79/H/I-66: 862 miles
*I-70/US 35/D/I-79/H/I-66: 864 miles
*I-70/D/I-79/68/70/270: 863 miles
*I-64/71/D/I-79/68/70/270: 869 miles
*I-64/79/68/70/270: 872 miles
*I-64/81/66: 879 miles

Personally, if I were making the drive, I'd probably go H one way and I-70 the other. And there are a fair number of decent alternates in the middle (such as cutting down to D on I-74 or US 33). Hell, I could probably choose a route based on where I'd be during rush hour.

But it's clear that Corridor H won't provide any significant advantage over the current routes.

29 miles shorter than I-64/81/66, according to your figures.  That is significant.  Avoiding 110 miles of I-81 is rather significant as well.

With regard to I-70, as HB said (also very significant) --

Plus with I-70 you have to deal with:

1.) Indianapolis
2.) Columbus
3.) Wheeling
4.) The substandard portion between Washington and New Stanton
5.) Tolls on the Turnpike
6.) Breezewood


Then sacrifice a few miles and take I-68, knocking out #4-#6. I-470 knocks out #3. Indy and Columbus are all that's left. I've been through Indy during rush hour with no problem on either side of town. Time your trip right, I-70/68 is definitely the way to go.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: SP Cook on January 16, 2012, 08:44:31 AM
A completed Corridor H would be the prefered route from St. Louis to DC.  70 to Columbus, then Corridor D, then 78, then H, then 66.

I agree - but put the emphasis on completed above, including Corridor H from Wardensville, W.Va. to "suburban" Strasburg, Va.

QuoteAs to California, its a comeback to say that the figure is "only" one out of 50 Californians could actually be supported by the land, unreclaimed, rather than one out of 100?

California as we know it today, would not exist without the aqueducts, high-voltage transmission lines, railroads and Interstate highways.

QuoteAs to pot, I don't use the stuff.  I used to really not care, but the more potheads I am around, the more I think its a "chicken and egg" deal.  Is it that people that belive crazy crap also smoke pot, or that pot makes you believe crazy crap.  I am begining to think its the latter.

It's the politics of Prohibition, and it has been going on far longer than the real Prohibition.  The United States would be much better off putting an end to this expensive nonsense.  And it would probably bring some financial benefit to West Virginia in the form of increased tax revenue, as the current (illegal) cultivation of cannabis does not contribute much tax money to anyone.

QuoteAs to WV and expressways, our "corridor standard" is wonderful.  As our great governor once said "if you don't want to look at it, feel free to drive the old route, I'll see you next week when you get here.".  Really the mountainside cuts (which KY, TN, etc also do) are 0.001% of the surface, and if you take a walk in the woods a mile in any direction, you will find plenty of "natural" mountains to look at.

I've no problem with West Virginia's four-lane divided expressways, be they U.S. 48/Corridor H or W.Va. 9 (the two expressways in the Mountaineer State that I have driven substantial segments of).

Which Governor are you speaking of?
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

J N Winkler

Is the boldface really necessary?
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Beltway

Quote from: The Situation™ on January 16, 2012, 09:43:41 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 16, 2012, 08:43:36 PM
29 miles shorter than I-64/81/66, according to your figures.  That is significant.  Avoiding 110 miles of I-81 is rather significant as well.

With regard to I-70, as HB said (also very significant) --

Plus with I-70 you have to deal with:

1.) Indianapolis
2.) Columbus
3.) Wheeling
4.) The substandard portion between Washington and New Stanton
5.) Tolls on the Turnpike
6.) Breezewood


Then sacrifice a few miles and take I-68, knocking out #4-#6. I-470 knocks out #3. Indy and Columbus are all that's left. I've been through Indy during rush hour with no problem on either side of town. Time your trip right, I-70/68 is definitely the way to go.

I-68 is more than a "few" miles, it's more like 20.

Per Google Maps, D.C. to Indy --
I-70 W -- 584 mi
I-68 W and I-70 W -- 614 mi

Truckers report very slow speeds on the numerous steep grades on I-68.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Alps

Quote from: Beltway on January 16, 2012, 10:34:58 PM
Quote from: The Situation™ on January 16, 2012, 09:43:41 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 16, 2012, 08:43:36 PM
29 miles shorter than I-64/81/66, according to your figures.  That is significant.  Avoiding 110 miles of I-81 is rather significant as well.

With regard to I-70, as HB said (also very significant) --

Plus with I-70 you have to deal with:

1.) Indianapolis
2.) Columbus
3.) Wheeling
4.) The substandard portion between Washington and New Stanton
5.) Tolls on the Turnpike
6.) Breezewood


Then sacrifice a few miles and take I-68, knocking out #4-#6. I-470 knocks out #3. Indy and Columbus are all that's left. I've been through Indy during rush hour with no problem on either side of town. Time your trip right, I-70/68 is definitely the way to go.

I-68 is more than a "few" miles, it's more like 20.

Per Google Maps, D.C. to Indy --
I-70 W -- 584 mi
I-68 W and I-70 W -- 614 mi

Truckers report very slow speeds on the numerous steep grades on I-68.

*I-70/270: 827 miles
*I-70/79/68/70/270: 835 miles

I fail to understsand how your results vary by more than 0 miles. And I'm referring to cars. Trucks would not want to drive Corridor H any more than they would I-68.

EDIT: I-68 route becomes 592, compared to 584. Your 614 is at best mistaken, perhaps disingenuous, at worst politicking (=lying).

rickmastfan67

Quote from: The Situation™ on January 16, 2012, 11:39:02 PM
I fail to understsand how your results vary by more than 0 miles. And I'm referring to cars. Trucks would not want to drive Corridor H any more than they would I-68.

He might be using a different starting point in Indy or ending point in D.C. than you were.

NE2

#208
Quote from: Beltway on January 16, 2012, 10:34:58 PM
Per Google Maps, D.C. to Indy --
I-70 W -- 584 mi
I-68 W and I-70 W -- 614 mi
Careful! I don't know where you're getting 614 miles, but drag the line to I-68 and it's 592. A whopping 8 miles extra.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

Beltway

Quote from: The Situation™ on January 16, 2012, 11:39:02 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 16, 2012, 10:34:58 PM
Quote from: The Situation™ on January 16, 2012, 09:43:41 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 16, 2012, 08:43:36 PM
29 miles shorter than I-64/81/66, according to your figures.  That is significant.  Avoiding 110 miles of I-81 is rather significant as well.

With regard to I-70, as HB said (also very significant) --

Plus with I-70 you have to deal with:

1.) Indianapolis
2.) Columbus
3.) Wheeling
4.) The substandard portion between Washington and New Stanton
5.) Tolls on the Turnpike
6.) Breezewood


Then sacrifice a few miles and take I-68, knocking out #4-#6. I-470 knocks out #3. Indy and Columbus are all that's left. I've been through Indy during rush hour with no problem on either side of town. Time your trip right, I-70/68 is definitely the way to go.

I-68 is more than a "few" miles, it's more like 20.

Per Google Maps, D.C. to Indy --
I-70 W -- 584 mi
I-68 W and I-70 W -- 614 mi

Truckers report very slow speeds on the numerous steep grades on I-68.

*I-70/270: 827 miles
*I-70/79/68/70/270: 835 miles

I fail to understsand how your results vary by more than 0 miles. And I'm referring to cars. Trucks would not want to drive Corridor H any more than they would I-68.

EDIT: I-68 route becomes 592, compared to 584. Your 614 is at best mistaken, perhaps disingenuous, at worst politicking (=lying).

When you are losing an argument, you retaliate with personal abuse.

I got it from Google Maps.

I know what truckers say about I-68 ... you don't know that they think.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

NE2

pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

Beltway

Quote from: NE2 on January 17, 2012, 08:07:43 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 17, 2012, 07:19:53 AM
I got it from Google Maps.
You got it wrong. Google Maps says 592 miles, not 614.
http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=washington+dc&daddr=39.6982,-79.33052+to:indianapolis&hl=en&sll=39.359785,-78.684082&sspn=1.909058,4.216003&geocode=FQh-UQIdsoRo-ylb5PZa3sa3iTEqXYjUIkVSwg%3BFRi_XQIdKINF-ymP3Sk4rLPKiTGk9kNbdai6mQ%3BFcTRXgIdBlXd-ikDanmn_1BriDF86rlA9p2O1g&vpsrc=0&mra=dpe&mrsp=1&sz=9&via=1&t=m&z=9


I surmise that that depends on where Google Maps sets the exact point for "Washington, DC", etc. .... also, unless you zoom in and look at the whole route you might not realize that it didn't go exactly where you wanted it to.

I did this I-68/I-70 comparison on paper maps long before there was an on-line mapping tool. Per Rand McNally --

Between I-68/I-70 junction in MD and I-79/I-70 east junction in PA --
Via I-68 is 166 miles
Via I-70 is 152 miles

I-68 is 9.2% longer, which is significant.

Also, truckers report that I-68's grades make it significantly slower in average speed than on the PA Turnpike.  Time for them is money, and they would not necessarily prefer I-68 as an alternate to I-70, even with the tolls on the Turnpike.

I-68 is a beautiful highway, but it is not a panacea.

http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

NE2

Quote from: Beltway on January 17, 2012, 09:40:19 AM
Quote from: NE2 on January 17, 2012, 08:07:43 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 17, 2012, 07:19:53 AM
I got it from Google Maps.
You got it wrong. Google Maps says 592 miles, not 614.
http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=washington+dc&daddr=39.6982,-79.33052+to:indianapolis&hl=en&sll=39.359785,-78.684082&sspn=1.909058,4.216003&geocode=FQh-UQIdsoRo-ylb5PZa3sa3iTEqXYjUIkVSwg%3BFRi_XQIdKINF-ymP3Sk4rLPKiTGk9kNbdai6mQ%3BFcTRXgIdBlXd-ikDanmn_1BriDF86rlA9p2O1g&vpsrc=0&mra=dpe&mrsp=1&sz=9&via=1&t=m&z=9

I surmise that that depends on where Google Maps sets the exact point for "Washington, DC", etc. .... also, unless you zoom in and look at the whole route you might not realize that it didn't go exactly where you wanted it to.
??? You had the same figure as me for I-70 all the way (584 miles), so unless you dragged the DC marker 22 miles to the east, your 614-miles route wasn't I-70/68.

Quote from: Beltway on January 17, 2012, 09:40:19 AM
Between I-68/I-70 junction in MD and I-79/I-70 east junction in PA --
Via I-68 is 166 miles
Via I-70 is 152 miles

I-68 is 9.2% longer, which is significant.
That percentage is meaningless unless you're going from Hancock to Washington. If I'm going a block away, I can make the trip 200% longer by going around the block. But as part of a cross-country trip, those two extra blocks are nothing.

Quote from: Beltway on January 17, 2012, 09:40:19 AM
Also, truckers report that I-68's grades make it significantly slower in average speed than on the PA Turnpike.  Time for them is money, and they would not necessarily prefer I-68 as an alternate to I-70, even with the tolls on the Turnpike.

I-68 is a beautiful highway, but it is not a panacea.
But we're getting away from the big issue, which is that there's a reason truckers use I-70 over I-68: grades. Somehow I think that's going to be a problem on Corridor H too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6dbmN2YjOk#t=444s
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

hbelkins

Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 16, 2012, 09:50:06 PM
A completed Corridor H would be the prefered route from St. Louis to DC.  70 to Columbus, then Corridor D, then 78, then H, then 66.

Even if the section from Wardensville to Strasburg doesn't get finished anytime soon, that's only a 20-mile stretch of two-lane that is not a bad drive at all. I'd prefer it over I-68/I-70/I-270 or I-64/I-81.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: hbelkins on January 17, 2012, 10:11:55 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 16, 2012, 09:50:06 PM
A completed Corridor H would be the prefered route from St. Louis to DC.  70 to Columbus, then Corridor D, then 78, then H, then 66.

Even if the section from Wardensville to Strasburg doesn't get finished anytime soon, that's only a 20-mile stretch of two-lane that is not a bad drive at all. I'd prefer it over I-68/I-70/I-270 or I-64/I-81.

In fairness, S.P. Cook wrote the words you attributed to me.

Regarding scenery, I think (a completed) Corridor H (combined with I-66 in Virginia) and I-79/I-68/I-70 are reasonably nice routes, though an uncompleted segment between Wardensville and Strasburg gives me (some) pause.

According to VDOT, Va. 55/U.S. 48 at the Virginia/West Virginia line only carried about 2,300 vehicles a day in 2010 - between the state line and I-81 it varies from 2,300 to 5,700 at I-81.  If Corridor H in West Virginia is a success and "induces" greater volumes of traffic (I-68 at Sidling Hill carries just over 20,000 per day), I would hope that Virginia would agree to improve its (short) section of H at some point. 
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Beltway

Quote from: hbelkins on January 17, 2012, 10:11:55 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 16, 2012, 09:50:06 PM
A completed Corridor H would be the prefered route from St. Louis to DC.  70 to Columbus, then Corridor D, then 78, then H, then 66.

Even if the section from Wardensville to Strasburg doesn't get finished anytime soon, that's only a 20-mile stretch of two-lane that is not a bad drive at all. I'd prefer it over I-68/I-70/I-270 or I-64/I-81.

There are long-distance benefits such as the route from St. Louis to DC, but as with most highways there are multiple route justifications.

Corridor H and I-66 corridor have multiple interregional roles.  The corridor itself would connect D.C., Northern VA, Northeastern WV, and Central WV, with a modern highway with 4 or more lanes.  In conjunction with other highways such as I-81, I-79, I-64 and Corridor G, it connects panhandle WV with Northeastern WV, Northeastern WV with western and southern WV, and D.C. and Northern VA with Northeastern WV with western and southern WV.

In sum, Corridor H will serve a collection of roles, that would be better handled with a modern 4-lane highway, than any form of 2-lane highway (2-lane "super 2" highways tend to have high rates of head-on collisions).
-- local access
-- interregional connections
-- national connections

http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

cpzilliacus

Quote from: J N Winkler on January 16, 2012, 10:06:40 PM
Is the boldface really necessary?

When speaking in writing, which usually means without face-to-face contact, I do not think it does any harm.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Alps

Quote from: Beltway on January 17, 2012, 07:19:53 AM
Quote from: The Situation™ on January 16, 2012, 11:39:02 PM
*I-70/270: 827 miles
*I-70/79/68/70/270: 835 miles

I fail to understsand how your results vary by more than 0 miles. And I'm referring to cars. Trucks would not want to drive Corridor H any more than they would I-68.

EDIT: I-68 route becomes 592, compared to 584. Your 614 is at best mistaken, perhaps disingenuous, at worst politicking (=lying).

When you are losing an argument, you retaliate with personal abuse.

I got it from Google Maps.

I know what truckers say about I-68 ... you don't know that they think.

Actually, I'm winning the argument, and there's no abuse. When you lose the argument, you make it personal so that you can appeal to emotions. I won't paint all conservatives that way, but it's a tactic used more by them than by liberals. (That's a discussion not for a roads board.) Show us your original link that gave 614 instead of 592 and prove your point.

J N Winkler

Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 17, 2012, 12:21:25 PMWhen speaking in writing, which usually means without face-to-face contact, I do not think it does any harm.

Actually, it does.  It is distracting and adds little to your argument since in writing, unlike speech, members of your audience can re-read what you have written to be sure they understand what you are trying to communicate.  Also, if you use boldface more often in threads where large numbers of other posters disagree with your point of view, you invite them to construe it as a poker tell.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

qguy

Quote from: The Situation™ on January 17, 2012, 06:15:56 PM
When you lose the argument, you make it personal so that you can appeal to emotions. I won't paint all conservatives that way, but it's a tactic used more by them than by liberals. (That's a discussion not for a roads board.)

You're kidding, right?

You are right that this isn't the place. So please don't pick it up and argue it with me; I'm not interested in picking a fight. Just realize that there a lot of us on the other side of the political spectrum that are of the well-considered opinion (arrived at by both observation and personal experience) that it's just the opposite.

J N Winkler

I did my own Indianapolis-to-DC route comparison (traffic circle in downtown Indianapolis to Zero Milestone in DC, to be precise), and came up with all of the distance values that have been referenced so far in this thread, plus 620 miles for a Corridor H variant routing.  The best Corridor H routing I have been able to find (passing through Parkersburg, Buckhannon, Elkins, Petersburg, and Moorefield, all of which I have seen referenced in various Corridor H construction plans I have found here and there) is 600 miles, which compares unfavorably with 584 miles by the existing shortest freeway route (I-70/I-270, including the Pennsylvania Turnpike through Somerset County).  This 600-mile routing runs along some state highways (e.g., SR 47) in West Virginia which look very tortuous.

I think some of the apparent discrepancies reported upthread (different mileages for the same general routing) are the result of loops where a routing crosses itself.  Moorefield seems to be particularly bad for this, probably because of the half-finished bit of Corridor H just to the east of town.

In terms of travel time for passenger cars, I-70/I-68 (592 miles) is the best at 10 hours 22 minutes.  I don't know if Google takes into account the delays to passenger cars caused by slow trucks.  The Pennsylvania Turnpike routing (584 miles) is third best at 10 hours 42 minutes.  (Second best is actually a variant which goes off-freeway Lancaster-Parkersburg-Morgantown:  603 miles, 10 hours 39 minutes.)  At this point I think it is a mug's game to try to estimate the mileage and driving time associated with a finished Corridor H routing because the driving time will almost certainly drop considerably, although the distance will probably not drop enough to eliminate the mileage advantage of the Pennsylvania Turnpike routing.  The 600-mile routing that currently exists has a reported travel time of 11 hours 24 minutes.

In regard to the other arguments offered for not building Corridor H, I think they need to be developed more.  The aesthetic impact of large rock cuts is real, but unless the viewshed alteration has deleterious effects (e.g., on a wilderness recreation industry) which can be quantified in dollars and cents, the rock cuts are too easy to write off as the price of progress.  I think the likelihood that Corridor H will have punishing grades is a more serious objection.  Trucks need grades as close to 3% as possible in order to make good time in hilly terrain; this is why they stick to the Pennsylvania Turnpike through Somerset County even though that is an absolutely miserable routing, with severe winter weather and fog in the summer.

I personally don't think it is unreasonable to criticize West Virginia, and for that matter Kentucky, Virginia, and the other Appalachian states, for relying too heavily on long grades and high rock cuts to traverse mountainous terrain in lieu of valley viaducts and tunnels.  It has long been my intuition that we, as a country, have priced ourselves out of mountain tunnels by requiring safety measures which are normally dispensed with in southern European countries where vastly greater numbers of freeway tunnels through mountains have operated for years with no safety problems.  However, in fairness to the Appalachian states, many of the safety features which make tunnels uneconomic (such as 24-hour monitoring and bans on dangerous cargoes) are mandated by FHWA through the federal-aid program.  It is also easier to make an economic case for extensive provision of structures to maintain low ruling grades through mountains when the proportion of freight that goes by road is much higher than it is in the US.  Road freight has a modal share of about 30% by mass in the US, while in many European countries this value is closer to 90%.

(I don't really have a dog in this fight.  Because I will almost certainly never have a chance to use it in the next 20 years or so, Corridor H will not benefit me personally, and I live largely out of reach of the indirect effects of it.  I have a personal interest in Corridor H only to the extent that I am able to obtain copies of the construction plans for the various parts of it.  Since WVDOT puts letting plans on Bid Express instead of making them available for the public to download, I can't say I'd be very sad if the entire WVDOT highway construction budget was zeroed out.)
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Beltway

Quote from: qguy on January 17, 2012, 07:10:11 PM
Quote from: The Situation™ on January 17, 2012, 06:15:56 PM
When you lose the argument, you make it personal so that you can appeal to emotions. I won't paint all conservatives that way, but it's a tactic used more by them than by liberals. (That's a discussion not for a roads board.)

You're kidding, right?

You are right that this isn't the place. So please don't pick it up and argue it with me; I'm not interested in picking a fight. Just realize that there a lot of us on the other side of the political spectrum that are of the well-considered opinion (arrived at by both observation and personal experience) that it's just the opposite.

Given that I don't discuss my politics here, I don't understand how "The Situation" can state anything about them.
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hbelkins

Quote from: J N Winkler on January 17, 2012, 08:40:32 PM
I did my own Indianapolis-to-DC route comparison (traffic circle in downtown Indianapolis to Zero Milestone in DC, to be precise), and came up with all of the distance values that have been referenced so far in this thread, plus 620 miles for a Corridor H variant routing.  The best Corridor H routing I have been able to find (passing through Parkersburg, Buckhannon, Elkins, Petersburg, and Moorefield, all of which I have seen referenced in various Corridor H construction plans I have found here and there) is 600 miles, which compares unfavorably with 584 miles by the existing shortest freeway route (I-70/I-270, including the Pennsylvania Turnpike through Somerset County).  This 600-mile routing runs along some state highways (e.g., SR 47) in West Virginia which look very tortuous.

Indianapolis to DC using Corridor H makes no sense. Some variation of I-70 and I-76, or I-70 and I-68, is the most logical route from Indy.

Run St. Louis to DC via I-70 and via I-64/I-79/Corridor H for a better comparison.

The Corridor H routing now won't go anywhere near Petersburg, since it is complete from Knobley Road (northwest of Petersburg and west of Moorefield) to the north of Moorefield and to Wardensville. You'd use US 33 to Elkins, US 219 to Thomas, WV 93 to Bismarck, and then either WV 42 and Knobley Road or WV 93, Scherr Road, Greenland Gap Road and Knobley Road to hit the completed Corridor H.

Quote from: The Situation™ on January 17, 2012, 06:15:56 PMWhen you lose the argument, you make it personal so that you can appeal to emotions. I won't paint all conservatives that way, but it's a tactic used more by them than by liberals. (That's a discussion not for a roads board.)

Naturally, I would disagree. It's been my experience that conservatives tend to use facts and logic more than emotions.


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agentsteel53

Quote from: hbelkins on January 17, 2012, 09:17:42 PM

Naturally, I would disagree. It's been my experience that conservatives tend to use facts and logic more than emotions.

depends on which kind of conservative: low-tax proponent, or religious fundamentalist?  (how those two camps ended up under the same party's flag in the US is an extraordinary cockup of historical coincidence.)
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Alps

Well there's been precious little facts or logic by ANYONE in this thread, regardless. (I have dedicated myself to being as trollish as possible because of all the inanity being bantered about.)



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