This might take a bit of explaining. Where are some places where you appear to cross a political boundary like a state line, and a river (or other geographical feature) at the same time, but the two are not coincident?
For example, where I-90 crosses the Washington—Idaho state line (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6970999,-117.0404679,3a,59.8y,256.6h,92.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sz6sIFY1KDXlH7SOAcgGG7Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), it would appear to the lay observer that the Spokane River defines the state line. After all, you cross the river, and the first sign after leaving the bridge is "Welcome to Idaho" or "Welcome to Washington". But the Spokane River is not the state line; it's a man-made north-south line here that just happens to intersect with I-90 at the same place it crosses the Spokane River.
Another example with a county line: the I-40 Canadian—Oklahoma county line (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4601859,-97.6716459,3a,51.2y,87.18h,91.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s65R1PG67v2wM4584pScHKw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) in Oklahoma City. With the way it's signed, you may just think Oklahoma is being awkward with its sign placement, and the North Canadian River is the boundary. But no, the county line is really a north—south line at about where the sign is, and then you cross the river a few hundred feet into Oklahoma County.
The St. Louis/Lake County line on MN 61 northeast of Duluth would appear to most motorists to be the Knife River, but it's not.
https://goo.gl/maps/1iJABD6egWQ98pTN7
It appears that I-405, when going from Los Angeles to Orange Counties, crosses the county line at the San Gabriel River bridge, whereas the actual county line is several hundred yards east just west of the I-605 interchange. That particular county line only coincidentally follows any landmark or facility; it seems to have been laid out either by where a survey transit was positioned 100 years ago -- or to accomplish some specific political goal. It criss-crosses both the San Gabriel River and its tributary, the Los Cerritos Creek waterway, long converted to a concrete flood-control channel. Its randomness has caused interagency issues for those towns on either side of the line that contract with the relevant county's sheriff's office for law enforcement -- since sometimes one residental block is split between counties -- one house in L.A. county, while the one next to it is in OC.
My mother always insisted the (old) US 15 bridge over the Cowanesque River at Lawrenceville PA was exactly on the New York—Pennsylvania line (it's actually about 600 feet north in New York). The river under the bridges on new US 15/future I-99 is about 1200 feet from the state line, but in Pennsylvania.
You would think that the Ohio River is the state boundary for Indiana/Kentucky? Well, not really when you head south of Evansville on US 41 after the I-69 interchange, and it's about a 1.5 miles south of the state line to cross the Ohio River.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.9302273,-87.5739325,13z
Even though KYTC primarily maintains both bridges, INDOT has secondary control over those bridges.
It's generally understood that the Mississippi river is the western boundary of Illinois but Kaskaskia, IL is west of the river due to a flood and subsequent change in the river channel. Plus, there is no bridge at Kaskaskia so it's the only city in IL that you have to access through MO.
Arlington Memorial Bridge in Washington DC would be an outstanding example of this, and I'd wager the vast majority of local residents, even those who use the bridge every day, think they're crossing from DC into Virginia, or vice versa, when they're on the bridge. They're not–the islands in the river are in the District of Columbia (or Maryland, depending on where the islands are), and the southern/western end of that bridge is on Columbia Island.
It doesn't help that there are no signs marking where the line actually is.
I'm assuming places like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0456946,-90.2651812,13.17z/data=!5m1!1e1) are
not what's being looked for? Or, at least, it wouldn't be relevant unless there was a road crossing there.
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 21, 2020, 03:31:59 AM
My mother always insisted the (old) US 15 bridge over the Cowanesque River at Lawrenceville PA was exactly on the New York—Pennsylvania line (it's actually about 600 feet north in New York). The river under the bridges on new US 15/future I-99 is about 1200 feet from the state line, but in Pennsylvania.
That's a good one. I can never quite seem to place exactly where the state line is, but that bridge has always been a good enough approximation, even though I know (obviously) that the NY/PA line is the 42nd parallel, not the Cowanesque* River.
*Actually marked as a branch of the Tioga River on Google Maps.
The towering bridges carrying the Mon-Fayette Expressway over Rubles Run (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7190071,-79.8207139,889m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en), with the WV-PA border actually running approximately east-west just north of the bridge.
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on September 21, 2020, 04:08:24 AM
You would think that the Ohio River is the state boundary for Indiana/Kentucky? Well, not really when you head south of Evansville on US 41 after the I-69 interchange, and it's about a 1.5 miles south of the state line to cross the Ohio River.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.9302273,-87.5739325,13z
Even though KYTC primarily maintains both bridges, INDOT has secondary control over those bridges.
There are a few instances on both the KY and IL borders where the state border is on what presumably was the routing of the river in 1800 but has since changed.
I-85 crosses from Brunswick County into Mecklenburg County (VA, not NC) just southwest of its crossing of the Meherrin River.
Most of the Delaware Memorial Bridge is in Delaware as the state boundary runs along the east bank of the Delaware River. Since both Delaware and New Jersey place welcome signs on their respective shores, an unassuming motorist might think the state line crosses the bridges at mid-span. Only small (and unhelpful) blue signs are found at the actual state line, along with "0" mile markers from NJ.
Quote from: Old Dominionite on September 21, 2020, 12:03:01 PM
Most of the Delaware Memorial Bridge is in Delaware as the state boundary runs along the east bank of the Delaware River. Since both Delaware and New Jersey place welcome signs on their respective shores, an unassuming motorist might think the state line crosses the bridges at mid-span. Only small (and unhelpful) blue signs are found at the actual state line, along with "0" mile markers from NJ.
And, because the border is based on the historic river bank, there are some areas on the NJ side of the river that are actually part of Delaware.
Quote from: Old Dominionite on September 21, 2020, 12:03:01 PM
Most of the Delaware Memorial Bridge is in Delaware as the state boundary runs along the east bank of the Delaware River. Since both Delaware and New Jersey place welcome signs on their respective shores, an unassuming motorist might think the state line crosses the bridges at mid-span. Only small (and unhelpful) blue signs are found at the actual state line, along with "0" mile markers from NJ.
Headed westbound (southbound) there is a line painted on the roadway with the words Delaware and new Jersey painted as well. I don't know if the same exists in the other direction.
Quote from: webny99 on September 21, 2020, 08:14:16 AM
I'm assuming places like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0456946,-90.2651812,13.17z/data=!5m1!1e1) are not what's being looked for? Or, at least, it wouldn't be relevant unless there was a road crossing there.
Correct. There should be a road, and ideally, some reason like signage to think the two are related (other than a misconception in the traveler's head).
Does this (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2110684,-99.0842405,16.21z) count?
Where US 70/183 crosses the Red River, the OK/TX border looks like it is at the Red River, but in reality the border is about 400 feet to the north.
Quote from: CoreySamson on September 21, 2020, 02:15:42 PM
Does this (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2110684,-99.0842405,16.21z) count?
Where US 70/183 crosses the Red River, the OK/TX border looks like it is at the Red River, but in reality the border is about 400 feet to the north.
No, because there the border is based on where the river was at one time. It's generally true to say "the OK/TX border is the Red River" there.
Likewise, situations where the border follows a riverbank rather than the center of the channel are not what I'm looking for, since the river still defines the boundary.
There's a large sandy wash right next to the AZ/NM border on the Duncan-Virden Hwy (aka NM-92/Virden Rd):
https://goo.gl/maps/BDzD5oK1AxTD9JyM8
https://goo.gl/maps/x4vsn15wRta97kc19
New Mexico did a little bit of extra paving inside Arizona, up to Lunt Lane about 50 feet west of the state line. Google thinks it's still a NM route at that point.
On US 70 at the NM state line, the road transitions from the bottom of the valley to the top of a plateau:
https://goo.gl/maps/rNMHKEm7zkxw4tnv9
In both instances it's easy to assume the border is based on some geographical features and not an arbitrary line, though certainly not as dramatic as the Idaho/Washington example.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 21, 2020, 07:38:23 AM
Arlington Memorial Bridge in Washington DC would be an outstanding example of this, and I'd wager the vast majority of local residents, even those who use the bridge every day, think they're crossing from DC into Virginia, or vice versa, when they're on the bridge. They're not–the islands in the river are in the District of Columbia (or Maryland, depending on where the islands are), and the southern/western end of that bridge is on Columbia Island.
It doesn't help that there are no signs marking where the line actually is.
NPS apparently
hates to sign political boundaries. Your example is a good one. There are no signs at all marking the D.C./Virginia border on the George Washington Memorial Parkway, nor on Washington Boulevard, S.W. nor on Memorial Avenue, S.W.
For some reason the Maryland/D.C. border is signed on Clara Barton Parkway, N.W. (example headed into Maryland here (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9367111,-77.1165639,3a,15y,346.87h,89.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLd-yFru3Mz_spMiIwBfygQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)).
Another example is on U.S. 50 on the east side of the District of Columbia. The border is at the east end of the bridge that carries U.S. 50 (New York Avenue, N.E.) over the Anacostia River, but the border just happens to cross the river near the DDOT-maintained bridge (map here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/38%C2%B055'04.9%22N+76%C2%B056'31.2%22W/@38.9180262,-76.9441997,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x89b7b6fde5564acb:0x938ed2555571b31d!2sColumbia+Island!3b1!8m2!3d38.8821634!4d-77.0557268!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d38.9180218!4d-76.9420113)).
Because the Maryland approach to the bridge is National Park Service maintenance, there's no sign that mentions the D.C./Maryland border at all. The sign put up by D.C. is well beyond the bridge on the westbound side here (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9191431,-76.949297,3a,15y,325.81h,95.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5rvTNQdha0u85Ox1AXRS6w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) near the Costco store, and the one installed by Maryland is well after U.S. 50 becomes a state-maintained road here (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.917382,-76.9265282,3a,75y,148.22h,89.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQi7Efc2BNF9KzJj7p-6jxA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). There is no sign at all on the Baltimore-Washington Parkway ("secret" MD-295).
On another NPS Parkway, the Blue Ridge Parkway, when I first drove it many years ago, there was no sign informing parkway users that they had crossed a state boundary. According to GSV there has been one since at least 2008 (when GSV last drove the parkway), headed north from N.C. to Va. here (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.5620523,-80.9126425,3a,51.1y,344.23h,90.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUvVdYqLHykZ_3kh1sX3B-w!2e0!7i3328!8i1664) and south from the Commonwealth into North Carolina here (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.5621402,-80.9125902,3a,75y,237.33h,78.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s01Che_NT3k8_aM5TkxgWLA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664).
IMO the style of these signs are appropriate for a national park, and would work well at the locations discussed above.
Wow, I was thinking of making this very topic, but I didn't think there would be any other examples besides the Spokane River one. North of that example at US 2 by Newport, Washington, the rough scale of the Washington State Highway Map made it look like there was a bridge crossing the straight north/south border. Not until I had Google Maps did I find that the bridge is entirely in Idaho (https://www.google.com/maps/@48.185841,-117.0405495,15z), and Idaho State Highway 41 starts west of the bridge, running down the state border.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 21, 2020, 09:36:49 PM
NPS apparently hates to sign political boundaries.
I'm not seeing it on GSV's 2018 imagery, but I'm fairly certain the Montana-Wyoming border was signed on
US 20 the West Entrance Road when I drove through Yellowstone this past summer. I can't think of any other signed state boundaries on NPS roads I've been on.
As far as the thread goes, the closest thing I can think of in Utah is the Millard/Sevier County boundary and a few others like it. Like a lot of other county boundaries in the mountainous western US, it follows a drainage divide - but instead of being defined on the divide exactly, it is defined along section lines that roughly approximate the divide. I-70 and US 50 both cross the county line within a half-mile of the point where they cross the ridgeline.
Quote from: webny99 on September 21, 2020, 08:14:16 AM
I'm assuming places like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0456946,-90.2651812,13.17z/data=!5m1!1e1) are not what's being looked for? Or, at least, it wouldn't be relevant unless there was a road crossing there.
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 21, 2020, 03:31:59 AM
My mother always insisted the (old) US 15 bridge over the Cowanesque River at Lawrenceville PA was exactly on the New York—Pennsylvania line (it's actually about 600 feet north in New York). The river under the bridges on new US 15/future I-99 is about 1200 feet from the state line, but in Pennsylvania.
That's a good one. I can never quite seem to place exactly where the state line is, but that bridge has always been a good enough approximation, even though I know (obviously) that the NY/PA line is the 42nd parallel, not the Cowanesque* River.
*Actually marked as a branch of the Tioga River on Google Maps.
I'll bet even Google doesn't know where the state line is. Google maps shows the state line running down the center of State St/Mill St (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9998062,-77.1269128,531m/data=!3m1!1e3), but I think it makes more sense if it runs behind the houses on the north side of the street. That's where the pavement changes (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9998582,-77.1269664,3a,75.9y,211.14h,71.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snFbIx2MQ-evi7bOC-fi6gA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), and it would line up better with sections to the east and west.
https://goo.gl/maps/dRP1mpB2tiiq8cRbA
This one isn't due to a river that moved. Never found out why that bit of Hampton is on the other side of the inlet of the Hampton River.
The river isn't EXACTLY in the same position as the state border, but I'm sure a lot of people who cross the border from Minnesota to South Dakota on US12 will think that the bridge is the state border. The welcome sign isn't until past the bridge, even though the bridge is squarely in SD. https://goo.gl/maps/LvC3cJCxtMR3H15w6
what I think is funny is when rivers are boundaries but then the river course changes
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 22, 2020, 04:35:58 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 21, 2020, 08:14:16 AM
I'm assuming places like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0456946,-90.2651812,13.17z/data=!5m1!1e1) are not what's being looked for? Or, at least, it wouldn't be relevant unless there was a road crossing there.
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 21, 2020, 03:31:59 AM
My mother always insisted the (old) US 15 bridge over the Cowanesque River at Lawrenceville PA was exactly on the New York—Pennsylvania line (it's actually about 600 feet north in New York). The river under the bridges on new US 15/future I-99 is about 1200 feet from the state line, but in Pennsylvania.
That's a good one. I can never quite seem to place exactly where the state line is, but that bridge has always been a good enough approximation, even though I know (obviously) that the NY/PA line is the 42nd parallel, not the Cowanesque* River.
*Actually marked as a branch of the Tioga River on Google Maps.
I'll bet even Google doesn't know where the state line is. Google maps shows the state line running down the center of State St/Mill St (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9998062,-77.1269128,531m/data=!3m1!1e3), but I think it makes more sense if it runs behind the houses on the north side of the street. That's where the pavement changes (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9998582,-77.1269664,3a,75.9y,211.14h,71.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snFbIx2MQ-evi7bOC-fi6gA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), and it would line up better with sections to the east and west.
Are you basing the state line based on knowledge, or based on pavement?
NC/VA 186 at the Meherrin River bridge is an example of this. State line signs are at either end of the bridge, even though the bridge is wholly within Virginia with approximately 150ft of road on the southwest side of the bridge still in Virginia.
Quote from: US 89 on September 22, 2020, 12:46:42 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 21, 2020, 09:36:49 PM
NPS apparently hates to sign political boundaries.
I'm not seeing it on GSV's 2018 imagery, but I'm fairly certain the Montana-Wyoming border was signed on US 20 when I drove through Yellowstone this past summer. I can't think of any other signed state boundaries on NPS roads I've been on.
I don't know what the deal with NPS and state lines is about. They should be posted, if for no other reason than to let NPS law enforcement know what state they are in - if they give someone a traffic summons, a federal court that would hear a challenge to the ticket depends on what state (or other jurisdiction, like D.C. or Puerto Rico and so on) depends on the state and maybe county where it was issued. Putting the wrong state on such a document probably makes it invalid. Now I know that the New Jersey Turnpike does not sign counties or municipalities, but the NJSP issues every trooper on the turnpike some sort of lookup table which shows municipalities by mile marker.
Quote from: US 89 on September 22, 2020, 12:46:42 AM
As far as the thread goes, the closest thing I can think of in Utah is the Millard/Sevier County boundary and a few others like it. Like a lot of other county boundaries in the mountainous western US, it follows a drainage divide - but instead of being defined on the divide exactly, it is defined along section lines that roughly approximate the divide. I-70 and US 50 both cross the county line within a half-mile of the point where they cross the ridgeline.
Not just in the West either. There are a lot of county boundaries (some state lines too) that follow the ridgelines in the East as well. The Blue Ridge serves as a county boundary all the way across Virginia except at the northernmost part approaching the Potomac River, where it is a state boundary between Loudoun County, Virginia and Jefferson County, West Virginia. North of the border into Maryland, it is again a county boundary between Washington County, Maryland and Frederick County, Maryland.
I believe there are two examples of this when US 98 and US 301 cross the Withlacoochee River.
Northwest-bound US 98 crosses a bridge over the Withlachoochee River north of Trilby in Pasco County, but doesn't cross the Pasco-Hernando County Line until just south of the Riverdale development. Southbound US 301 crosses a bridge over the river far south of Ridge Manor in Hernando County, but doesn't cross the Hernando-Pasco county line until just before this abandoned house (https://www.google.com/maps/@28.4780661,-82.1783711,3a,60y,275.82h,86.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssTV5DjXkagzcCMpcSo8jtg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) on the west side of the road.
Also, since this is my 2626th post, I think I'll celebrate in my usual way.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Florida_26.svg/240px-Florida_26.svg.png)
Honorable mention would be this strange situation. I know it has been said that it doesn't count when a river's course isn't the same as it was when the state line was drawn, but this is extreme. The Rio Grande used to separate New Mexico from Texas, and it still does for a small amount, but the river was channelized and shifted (by man, not erosion) many miles to the east, leaving a meandering state line between the two states that looks like a river. It so weird because it's the only case I can think of where the old river was "abandoned" to the extent that it was filled in so there is almost no evidence of there being a river where the state line actually is. Because of this, there are lots of structures that are in both states. At one point the state line bisects a bridge over the new river. Unfortunately, the state line isn't signed because it is a local road, but if it were, it would appear that the Rio Grande was the Texas/New Mexico State Line.
https://www.google.com/maps/@31.8459579,-106.604433,3a,17.5y,287.36h,87.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shdfVuPInWJDONuyS1d-I4Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@31.8459579,-106.604433,3a,17.5y,287.36h,87.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shdfVuPInWJDONuyS1d-I4Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
At another point, the meandering state line follows a drainage ditch, so that people crossing it think the ditch is the boundary.
https://www.google.com/maps/@31.8548754,-106.6237875,3a,16y,245.25h,88.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1MbercnYDsG9IBUMxmz9ZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@31.8548754,-106.6237875,3a,16y,245.25h,88.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1MbercnYDsG9IBUMxmz9ZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Another honorable mention is the backward affect: boundaries that on a map appear to be a river or creek, but in reality are just a squiggly line. The northern boundary of Travis County, Texas between it and Williamson county meanders for miles, and appears to follow a river/creek, but there was never a river/creek here and may just be a product of choppy abstract lines.
Quote from: US 89 on September 22, 2020, 12:46:42 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 21, 2020, 09:36:49 PM
NPS apparently hates to sign political boundaries.
I'm not seeing it on GSV's 2018 imagery, but I'm fairly certain the Montana-Wyoming border was signed on US 20 the West Entrance Road when I drove through Yellowstone this past summer. I can't think of any other signed state boundaries on NPS roads I've been on.
It is signed on the North Entrance Road: https://goo.gl/maps/fQ7cqqEWUf6VFG1s5
I am going to add a YEAH, BUT
While some of these examples are indeed anomalies that just happen, still others have to do with the boundary being the route of the river at a past date. There places along the lower Mississippi where the boundary is nearly 10 miles from the current river channel to the state line. I cannot think of any that have roads through the oxbow peninsulas, but if there were, it would be really confusing. Technically the US-82 bridge at Greenville both landings are in Arkansas. The approach on the Mississippi side is partly in Arkansas, but the state line falls before east bank levee.
The Arkansas / Texas border at Index on US-71 is one of these. The highway signs don't help it any.
The Northbound Bridge leaves Miller County Arkansas and arrives in Little River County Arkansas.
The Southbound Bridge Leaves Little River County Arkansas and arrives in Bowie County TX.
Then again, All the Texas Bridges on the Red River TECHNICALLY leave and arrive in the other state because Technically the other state controls to the high water mark.
Quote from: bwana39 on September 25, 2020, 11:59:45 AM
I am going to add a YEAH, BUT
While some of these examples are indeed anomalies that just happen, still others have to do with the boundary being the route of the river at a past date. There places along the lower Mississippi where the boundary is nearly 10 miles from the current river channel to the state line. I cannot think of any that have roads through the oxbow peninsulas, but if there were, it would be really confusing. Technically the US-82 bridge at Greenville both landings are in Arkansas. The approach on the Mississippi side is partly in Arkansas, but the state line falls before east bank levee.
The Arkansas / Texas border at Index on US-71 is one of these. The highway signs don't help it any.
The Northbound Bridge leaves Miller County Arkansas and arrives in Little River County Arkansas.
The Southbound Bridge Leaves Little River County Arkansas and arrives in Bowie County TX.
Then again, All the Texas Bridges on the Red River TECHNICALLY leave and arrive in the other state because Technically the other state controls to the high water mark.
Speaking of the Red River, not really on the subject of the thread, but bothers me. Southbound I-35 crossing the Red River is signed in Oklahoma and Texas, so you see a sign for the Red River after you have crossed it. It feels like a "you did it? I can do it too!"
https://goo.gl/maps/6Po23sMPUtRZSa8v5 (https://goo.gl/maps/6Po23sMPUtRZSa8v5)
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on September 24, 2020, 09:58:08 PM
Quote from: US 89 on September 22, 2020, 12:46:42 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 21, 2020, 09:36:49 PM
NPS apparently hates to sign political boundaries.
I'm not seeing it on GSV's 2018 imagery, but I'm fairly certain the Montana-Wyoming border was signed on US 20 the West Entrance Road when I drove through Yellowstone this past summer. I can't think of any other signed state boundaries on NPS roads I've been on.
It is signed on the North Entrance Road: https://goo.gl/maps/fQ7cqqEWUf6VFG1s5
I am 90% sure that was not there this summer. I was even looking for a sign and never saw that.
Quote from: bwana39 on September 25, 2020, 11:59:45 AM
I am going to add a YEAH, BUT
While some of these examples are indeed anomalies that just happen, still others have to do with the boundary being the route of the river at a past date.
If the boundary was ever the route of the river at a past date, it doesn't qualify for this thread.
This thread is for when you cross a river and a boundary at the same time but the river is not, and has never been the boundary.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 22, 2020, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 22, 2020, 04:35:58 AM
I'll bet even Google doesn't know where the state line is. Google maps shows the state line running down the center of State St/Mill St (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9998062,-77.1269128,531m/data=!3m1!1e3), but I think it makes more sense if it runs behind the houses on the north side of the street. That's where the pavement changes (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9998582,-77.1269664,3a,75.9y,211.14h,71.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snFbIx2MQ-evi7bOC-fi6gA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), and it would line up better with sections to the east and west.
Are you basing the state line based on knowledge, or based on pavement?
I'm not sure, but it seems very reasonable that the houses along said street are entirely in PA, rather than the state line running down the middle of the street. If you look closely, it looks like Google has angled the state line slightly, starting about here (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9994257,-77.1162047,252m/data=!3m1!1e3), to force it onto the street, while the more properly aligned location would seem to be behind the houses on the north side.
Quote from: webny99 on September 25, 2020, 09:53:43 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 22, 2020, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 22, 2020, 04:35:58 AM
I'll bet even Google doesn't know where the state line is. Google maps shows the state line running down the center of State St/Mill St (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9998062,-77.1269128,531m/data=!3m1!1e3), but I think it makes more sense if it runs behind the houses on the north side of the street. That's where the pavement changes (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9998582,-77.1269664,3a,75.9y,211.14h,71.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snFbIx2MQ-evi7bOC-fi6gA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), and it would line up better with sections to the east and west.
Are you basing the state line based on knowledge, or based on pavement?
I'm not sure, but it seems very reasonable that the houses along said street are entirely in PA, rather than the state line running down the middle of the street. If you look closely, it looks like Google has angled the state line slightly, starting about here (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9994257,-77.1162047,252m/data=!3m1!1e3), to force it onto the street, while the more properly aligned location would seem to be behind the houses on the north side.
That, plus the sidewalks (which I assume are a
village borough project) extend north of that street.
The USGS topo maps (https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/topoview/viewer/#15/41.9969/-77.1250) (Tioga and Jackson Summit quads) just add to the confusion. The 1954 maps show the state line as definitely north of that line of houses. The 2019 maps show a mid-street state line – more from shifting the street than the state line – but does not show individual buildings. Comparing the two, it just seems to me that the 1954 version was more carefully done, and that Google might be relying on the current version.
There is one I know of in Beloit, WI. ILL 2's end sign and a North Wis 213 sign are right at the beginning of the bridge over Turtle Creek.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4947733,-89.0367973,3a,20.3y,41.86h,90.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDpNMliuez4hmYAbqVlALsg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
The bridge is actually about 200 feet well inside Illinois.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4949809,-89.0362286,17z?hl=en
The pavement change is the line on Route 2/Wis 213.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4959912,-89.0366219,3a,75y,3.81h,82.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLChnsZeAqHG_vj70N-84yA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
As you can see, the reverse view has the South Beloit sign and the back of the Beloit sign at the pavement change.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4961715,-89.0366022,3a,51.5y,168.5h,83.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0fYO6_o-Hn6D_mkViHhcug!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
Another thing to notice a bit east of Route 2/213 is the crossing of US 51 between the 2 states. Notice that the first building on the Wisconsin side is a fireworks place since they are illegal in Illinois.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4961383,-89.0198452,3a,75y,84.15h,75.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRMZWXa7EVAlulTJcLyHIdg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
Another example involving the Red River- US71/59 north of Texarkana, but only going southbound. I'm not 100% sure if this would even count, because US71 crosses in to Texas only about 50 feet to the east of where the Red River, or its former course, stops deciding the border.
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 26, 2020, 03:10:38 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 25, 2020, 09:53:43 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 22, 2020, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 22, 2020, 04:35:58 AM
I’ll bet even Google doesn’t know where the state line is. Google maps shows the state line running down the center of State St/Mill St (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9998062,-77.1269128,531m/data=!3m1!1e3), but I think it makes more sense if it runs behind the houses on the north side of the street. That’s where the pavement changes (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9998582,-77.1269664,3a,75.9y,211.14h,71.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snFbIx2MQ-evi7bOC-fi6gA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), and it would line up better with sections to the east and west.
Are you basing the state line based on knowledge, or based on pavement?
I'm not sure, but it seems very reasonable that the houses along said street are entirely in PA, rather than the state line running down the middle of the street. If you look closely, it looks like Google has angled the state line slightly, starting about here (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9994257,-77.1162047,252m/data=!3m1!1e3), to force it onto the street, while the more properly aligned location would seem to be behind the houses on the north side.
That, plus the sidewalks (which I assume are a village borough project) extend north of that street.
The USGS topo maps (https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/topoview/viewer/#15/41.9969/-77.1250) (Tioga and Jackson Summit quads) just add to the confusion. The 1954 maps show the state line as definitely north of that line of houses. The 2019 maps show a mid-street state line — more from shifting the street than the state line — but does not show individual buildings. Comparing the two, it just seems to me that the 1954 version was more carefully done, and that Google might be relying on the current version.
Curiouser and curiouser.
According to this (https://tiogagis.tiogacountypa.us/portal2017/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=a53ceb32efdb4b69806dcdaff4f0c9df), the municipal boundary is the orange line, but the state boundary is the green line. This would put part of the municipality outside the state, which I'm pretty sure can't be done. If I had to guess, I'd say it's the state line that's wrong, but that's just a hunch.
(https://i.imgur.com/1YkhhHs.png)
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 26, 2020, 11:23:37 PM
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 26, 2020, 03:10:38 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 25, 2020, 09:53:43 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 22, 2020, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 22, 2020, 04:35:58 AM
I'll bet even Google doesn't know where the state line is. Google maps shows the state line running down the center of State St/Mill St (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9998062,-77.1269128,531m/data=!3m1!1e3), but I think it makes more sense if it runs behind the houses on the north side of the street. That's where the pavement changes (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9998582,-77.1269664,3a,75.9y,211.14h,71.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snFbIx2MQ-evi7bOC-fi6gA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), and it would line up better with sections to the east and west.
Are you basing the state line based on knowledge, or based on pavement?
I'm not sure, but it seems very reasonable that the houses along said street are entirely in PA, rather than the state line running down the middle of the street. If you look closely, it looks like Google has angled the state line slightly, starting about here (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9994257,-77.1162047,252m/data=!3m1!1e3), to force it onto the street, while the more properly aligned location would seem to be behind the houses on the north side.
That, plus the sidewalks (which I assume are a village borough project) extend north of that street.
The USGS topo maps (https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/topoview/viewer/#15/41.9969/-77.1250) (Tioga and Jackson Summit quads) just add to the confusion. The 1954 maps show the state line as definitely north of that line of houses. The 2019 maps show a mid-street state line – more from shifting the street than the state line – but does not show individual buildings. Comparing the two, it just seems to me that the 1954 version was more carefully done, and that Google might be relying on the current version.
Curiouser and curiouser.
According to this (https://tiogagis.tiogacountypa.us/portal2017/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=a53ceb32efdb4b69806dcdaff4f0c9df), the municipal boundary is the orange line, but the state boundary is the green line. This would put part of the municipality outside the state, which I'm pretty sure can't be done. If I had to guess, I'd say it's the state line that's wrong, but that's just a hunch.
(https://i.imgur.com/1YkhhHs.png)
In the 2010 U.S. Census data, the sliver of land north of State St. is assigned to Lawrenceville, Pennsylvania census block 3014. The census data shows this census block having 23 houses and 59 people. This implies that all of the people living along that stretch were counted as Pennsylvania residents.
(https://imgur.com/vSMgd5p.png)
In case you're curious about where the Census Bureau gets its boundary data:
https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/bas/about.html
I'm sure there are a lot of drivers crossing the Kansas River bridges on 670 and 70 who believe they are crossing a state line at the river.
Quote from: jaehak on September 27, 2020, 01:05:59 PM
I’m sure there are a lot of drivers crossing the Kansas River bridges on 670 and 70 who believe they are crossing a state line at the river.
Speaking of which, how is the I-70 construction going there? Your post piqued my curiosity, but I really haven't been able to find anything recent.
Resurrecting this thread with another as-yet-unmentioned example:
US 98 at the Escatawpa River, where it happens to cross the MS/AL line at the same time.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 21, 2020, 07:38:23 AM
Arlington Memorial Bridge in Washington DC would be an outstanding example of this, and I'd wager the vast majority of local residents, even those who use the bridge every day, think they're crossing from DC into Virginia, or vice versa, when they're on the bridge. They're not–the islands in the river are in the District of Columbia (or Maryland, depending on where the islands are), and the southern/western end of that bridge is on Columbia Island.
It doesn't help that there are no signs marking where the line actually is.
iirc, the border is basically as soon as you get your feet wet in the potomac.
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 04, 2020, 09:12:10 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 21, 2020, 07:38:23 AM
Arlington Memorial Bridge in Washington DC would be an outstanding example of this, and I'd wager the vast majority of local residents, even those who use the bridge every day, think they're crossing from DC into Virginia, or vice versa, when they're on the bridge. They're not–the islands in the river are in the District of Columbia (or Maryland, depending on where the islands are), and the southern/western end of that bridge is on Columbia Island.
It doesn't help that there are no signs marking where the line actually is.
iirc, the border is basically as soon as you get your feet wet in the potomac.
The island is in DC, not VA; the border follows a much more minor river at this particular point. I've walked from Arlington National Cemetery to the Lincoln Memorial and beyond, so I've walked from VA to DC – but I crossed the border before I crossed the Potomac, not at the same time.
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 04, 2020, 09:12:10 AM
iirc, the border is basically as soon as you get your feet wet in the potomac.
Technically, not wrong. The official border is the mean low water mark on the Virginia side of the Potomac. But what many people don't realize is what's been mentioned both in this thread and others: there's a second channel of the Potomac (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8805021,-77.0585844,15.33z) west of GW Pkwy in the vicinity of Memorial Bridge.
Quote from: froggie on November 04, 2020, 10:22:08 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 04, 2020, 09:12:10 AM
iirc, the border is basically as soon as you get your feet wet in the potomac.
Technically, not wrong. The official border is the mean low water mark on the Virginia side of the Potomac. But what many people don't realize is what's been mentioned both in this thread and others: there's a second channel of the Potomac (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8805021,-77.0585844,15.33z) west of GW Pkwy in the vicinity of Memorial Bridge.
learned something new today, thanks for that. always a good thing. it's been a long time since i've been in that area...
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9014879,-103.002353,3a,75y,265.43h,95.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIQVYk6vh1dQGW31oK3iXqA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664 (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9014879,-103.002353,3a,75y,265.43h,95.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIQVYk6vh1dQGW31oK3iXqA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664)
New Mexico State Highway 456 crosses into Oklahoma at a bridge over a creek. The state line is a parallel and not the creek.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on December 15, 2020, 01:34:29 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9014879,-103.002353,3a,75y,265.43h,95.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIQVYk6vh1dQGW31oK3iXqA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664 (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9014879,-103.002353,3a,75y,265.43h,95.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIQVYk6vh1dQGW31oK3iXqA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664)
New Mexico State Highway 456 crosses into Oklahoma at a bridge over a creek. The state line is a parallel meridian and not the creek.
FTFY. The 103rd meridian west from Greenwich, to be exact - one of the few state boundary meridians from Greenwich (most are from Washington).
This entire thread reminds me of a somewhat funny story from when I was a kid. We were driving back to Green Bay from my uncle's home near Peoria. My dad hated the Illinois Tollways and couldn't resist complaining about paying for roads to the booth attendants every time we didn't have exact change. When we stopped to pay at the South Beloit Toll Plaza on the Northwest Tollway, my dad said he'd be glad to be back in Wisconsin. The woman at the toll booth said, "No sir. There's four miles of Illinois freeway before you get to Wisconsin." My dad didn't say anything back (I'm sure his eyes rolled back as far as he could roll them), but after we drove off we all busted out laughing.
It's not really a fake river boundary because for a very short segment (maybe a mile) the state boundary actually happens to follow a river, but the US 64 bridge at Fort Smith crosses over from Arkansas into Oklahoma at that location.
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 04, 2020, 09:12:10 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 21, 2020, 07:38:23 AM
Arlington Memorial Bridge in Washington DC would be an outstanding example of this, and I'd wager the vast majority of local residents, even those who use the bridge every day, think they're crossing from DC into Virginia, or vice versa, when they're on the bridge. They're not–the islands in the river are in the District of Columbia (or Maryland, depending on where the islands are), and the southern/western end of that bridge is on Columbia Island.
It doesn't help that there are no signs marking where the line actually is.
iirc, the border is basically as soon as you get your feet wet in the potomac.
The border at the Key Bridge from Rosslyn-Georgetown is better marked. There's a "Welcome to Washington DC" sign at the start of the Key Bridge, which is factually speaking where the line is (or at least close enough). You can see it here: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8998869,-77.0706958,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_RBSgT1gQ-0A195bfllLJA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
No mention thus far of Carter Lake, Iowa.
If you've driven from the Omaha airport into downtown Omaha, you've probably driven through Carter Lake.
Quote from: froggie on November 04, 2020, 10:22:08 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 04, 2020, 09:12:10 AM
iirc, the border is basically as soon as you get your feet wet in the potomac.
Technically, not wrong. The official border is the mean low water mark on the Virginia side of the Potomac. But what many people don't realize is what's been mentioned both in this thread and others: there's a second channel of the Potomac (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8805021,-77.0585844,15.33z) west of GW Pkwy in the vicinity of Memorial Bridge.
I hadn't looked at this thread in a while, so this post is somewhat late, but for those unfamiliar with the channel froggie mentions, it's called "Boundary Channel," consistent with its role. The reason the islands in the Potomac fall within DC and Maryland go back to Virginia and Maryland's colonial charters from the 1600s (DC inherited Maryland's river borders after Virginia's part of the District was retroceded). Those charters are still relevant today, BTW–not too long ago, the Supreme Court had an original-jurisdiction case between Virginia and Maryland over Fairfax County's construction of a water intake pipe that Maryland was trying to block (Virginia won, based in no small part on the rights granted to each state in those colonial charters).
Boundary Channel is barely noticeable, if it's even noticeable at all, from most of the main roads that cross over it, thus furthering the impression that you're still in Virginia. We went to Arlington Cemetery on Sunday with my mom and she was a little taken aback when I said we had passed through DC en route. (Leaving the cemetery we did not do so–the main entrance was so busy that it caused a backup through the traffic circle, so they opened up the service gate to Columbia Pike for use as an exit and we left that way, thus staying in Virginia.)
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 16, 2020, 07:49:45 AM
Quote from: froggie on November 04, 2020, 10:22:08 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 04, 2020, 09:12:10 AM
iirc, the border is basically as soon as you get your feet wet in the potomac.
Technically, not wrong. The official border is the mean low water mark on the Virginia side of the Potomac. But what many people don't realize is what's been mentioned both in this thread and others: there's a second channel of the Potomac (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8805021,-77.0585844,15.33z) west of GW Pkwy in the vicinity of Memorial Bridge.
I hadn't looked at this thread in a while, so this post is somewhat late, but for those unfamiliar with the channel froggie mentions, it's called "Boundary Channel," consistent with its role. The reason the islands in the Potomac fall within DC and Maryland go back to Virginia and Maryland's colonial charters from the 1600s (DC inherited Maryland's river borders after Virginia's part of the District was retroceded). Those charters are still relevant today, BTW–not too long ago, the Supreme Court had an original-jurisdiction case between Virginia and Maryland over Fairfax County's construction of a water intake pipe that Maryland was trying to block (Virginia won, based in no small part on the rights granted to each state in those colonial charters).
Boundary Channel is barely noticeable, if it's even noticeable at all, from most of the main roads that cross over it, thus furthering the impression that you're still in Virginia. We went to Arlington Cemetery on Sunday with my mom and she was a little taken aback when I said we had passed through DC en route. (Leaving the cemetery we did not do so–the main entrance was so busy that it caused a backup through the traffic circle, so they opened up the service gate to Columbia Pike for use as an exit and we left that way, thus staying in Virginia.)
Reminds me of a time when I was driving with a friend on the GW Parkway and they were surprised when Google Maps said "Welcome to District of Columbia." I had to explain that we were TECHNICALLY in DC. I'd bet that if you polled the average DMV resident, they would tell you that the GW Parkway was entirely in Virginia.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 16, 2020, 08:19:38 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 16, 2020, 07:49:45 AM
Quote from: froggie on November 04, 2020, 10:22:08 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 04, 2020, 09:12:10 AM
iirc, the border is basically as soon as you get your feet wet in the potomac.
Technically, not wrong. The official border is the mean low water mark on the Virginia side of the Potomac. But what many people don't realize is what's been mentioned both in this thread and others: there's a second channel of the Potomac (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8805021,-77.0585844,15.33z) west of GW Pkwy in the vicinity of Memorial Bridge.
I hadn't looked at this thread in a while, so this post is somewhat late, but for those unfamiliar with the channel froggie mentions, it's called "Boundary Channel," consistent with its role. The reason the islands in the Potomac fall within DC and Maryland go back to Virginia and Maryland's colonial charters from the 1600s (DC inherited Maryland's river borders after Virginia's part of the District was retroceded). Those charters are still relevant today, BTW–not too long ago, the Supreme Court had an original-jurisdiction case between Virginia and Maryland over Fairfax County's construction of a water intake pipe that Maryland was trying to block (Virginia won, based in no small part on the rights granted to each state in those colonial charters).
Boundary Channel is barely noticeable, if it's even noticeable at all, from most of the main roads that cross over it, thus furthering the impression that you're still in Virginia. We went to Arlington Cemetery on Sunday with my mom and she was a little taken aback when I said we had passed through DC en route. (Leaving the cemetery we did not do so–the main entrance was so busy that it caused a backup through the traffic circle, so they opened up the service gate to Columbia Pike for use as an exit and we left that way, thus staying in Virginia.)
Reminds me of a time when I was driving with a friend on the GW Parkway and they were surprised when Google Maps said "Welcome to District of Columbia." I had to explain that we were TECHNICALLY in DC. I'd bet that if you polled the average DMV resident, they would tell you that the GW Parkway was entirely in Virginia.
I'm sure you're correct, with the possible exception of certain people who might note that the park within which the Clara Barton Parkway runs is part of the same NPS "facility," for legal purposes, as the GW Parkway, and certain long-time residents (and some roadgeeks) who would note that the Clara Barton Parkway was once called the George Washington Memorial Parkway because both sides were supposed to extend further west and be linked by a bridge out around Great Falls (dumb idea). People found it confusing to have two disconnected roads with the same name right across the river from each other, so in the late 1980s there was a proposal to rename the Maryland side to "Martha Washington Memorial Parkway." Maryland preferred Clara Barton because she had lived in Glen Echo.
Somewhere I used to have an old map showing the western extensions and bridge as proposed, but I don't know if I still have it. It wasn't a detailed map of that road, just a street map of the DC area. I seem to recall the highway would have done a number on Great Falls Park, which is part of the reason why I said "dumb idea" in the previous paragraph (plus the road just likely wouldn't have been all that useful).
Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 16, 2020, 08:19:38 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 16, 2020, 07:49:45 AM
Quote from: froggie on November 04, 2020, 10:22:08 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 04, 2020, 09:12:10 AM
iirc, the border is basically as soon as you get your feet wet in the potomac.
Technically, not wrong. The official border is the mean low water mark on the Virginia side of the Potomac. But what many people don't realize is what's been mentioned both in this thread and others: there's a second channel of the Potomac (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8805021,-77.0585844,15.33z) west of GW Pkwy in the vicinity of Memorial Bridge.
I hadn't looked at this thread in a while, so this post is somewhat late, but for those unfamiliar with the channel froggie mentions, it's called "Boundary Channel," consistent with its role. The reason the islands in the Potomac fall within DC and Maryland go back to Virginia and Maryland's colonial charters from the 1600s (DC inherited Maryland's river borders after Virginia's part of the District was retroceded). Those charters are still relevant today, BTW–not too long ago, the Supreme Court had an original-jurisdiction case between Virginia and Maryland over Fairfax County's construction of a water intake pipe that Maryland was trying to block (Virginia won, based in no small part on the rights granted to each state in those colonial charters).
Boundary Channel is barely noticeable, if it's even noticeable at all, from most of the main roads that cross over it, thus furthering the impression that you're still in Virginia. We went to Arlington Cemetery on Sunday with my mom and she was a little taken aback when I said we had passed through DC en route. (Leaving the cemetery we did not do so–the main entrance was so busy that it caused a backup through the traffic circle, so they opened up the service gate to Columbia Pike for use as an exit and we left that way, thus staying in Virginia.)
Reminds me of a time when I was driving with a friend on the GW Parkway and they were surprised when Google Maps said "Welcome to District of Columbia." I had to explain that we were TECHNICALLY in DC. I'd bet that if you polled the average DMV resident, they would tell you that the GW Parkway was entirely in Virginia.
There used to be a sign at this bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8811933,-77.0595802,3a,75y,128.17h,85.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCrPJQEL0iaTmsLVBpy5COw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) announcing "Welcome to Washington" that was removed in the 80's(?). I don't believe Virginia had one further down the parkway (would been at the Humpback Bridge), which led to more confusion. Although it may have been replaced for a time by a brown NPS style sign, and I'm now hazy as to which end of the bridge it was on (possibly left side of the roadway after the bridge?), but I remember a stylized sign identical to what was at other entrances to DC at the time.
Forgot about this one in West Virginia. The border between Kanawha County and Putnam County on I-64 westbound occurs at the west end of the Nitro 40th Street bridge (which crosses Armour Creek). The border appears to follow the creek for a short distance on both sides of this bridge, but the original skewed boundary appears to have been adjusted to include all the properties along 40th Street as part of Kanawha County. Going eastbound, the signage entering Kanawha County is far enough west of the bridge that there is no confusion.
Quote from: Road Hog on December 15, 2020, 07:11:38 PM
It's not really a fake river boundary because for a very short segment (maybe a mile) the state boundary actually happens to follow a river, but the US 64 bridge at Fort Smith crosses over from Arkansas into Oklahoma at that location.
I never noticed that. According to the USGS map, the state line follows a (roughly) straight line up to Mill Creek, and then follows Mill Creek a few hundred feet to the Poteau River. It then follows the Poteau River about 1.6 miles to the Arkansas, just south of US 64. It follows the Arkansas River 0.4 mile and splits off just north of US 64.
Mill Creek starts in a hollow dividing George and Brooks Stephins Mountains, just south of I-540. It's about 7.5 miles long and its drainage area is quite narrow, with areas to the west draining into the Poteau and to the east draining into the Arkansas below Fort Smith. That makes me wonder whether this is the most minor stream that carries a state line.
Quote from: tallfull on September 27, 2020, 01:01:42 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 26, 2020, 11:23:37 PM
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 26, 2020, 03:10:38 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 25, 2020, 09:53:43 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 22, 2020, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 22, 2020, 04:35:58 AM
I'll bet even Google doesn't know where the state line is. Google maps shows the state line running down the center of State St/Mill St (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9998062,-77.1269128,531m/data=!3m1!1e3), but I think it makes more sense if it runs behind the houses on the north side of the street. That's where the pavement changes (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9998582,-77.1269664,3a,75.9y,211.14h,71.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snFbIx2MQ-evi7bOC-fi6gA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), and it would line up better with sections to the east and west.
Are you basing the state line based on knowledge, or based on pavement?
I'm not sure, but it seems very reasonable that the houses along said street are entirely in PA, rather than the state line running down the middle of the street. If you look closely, it looks like Google has angled the state line slightly, starting about here (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9994257,-77.1162047,252m/data=!3m1!1e3), to force it onto the street, while the more properly aligned location would seem to be behind the houses on the north side.
That, plus the sidewalks (which I assume are a village borough project) extend north of that street.
The USGS topo maps (https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/topoview/viewer/#15/41.9969/-77.1250) (Tioga and Jackson Summit quads) just add to the confusion. The 1954 maps show the state line as definitely north of that line of houses. The 2019 maps show a mid-street state line – more from shifting the street than the state line – but does not show individual buildings. Comparing the two, it just seems to me that the 1954 version was more carefully done, and that Google might be relying on the current version.
Curiouser and curiouser.
According to this (https://tiogagis.tiogacountypa.us/portal2017/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=a53ceb32efdb4b69806dcdaff4f0c9df), the municipal boundary is the orange line, but the state boundary is the green line. This would put part of the municipality outside the state, which I'm pretty sure can't be done. If I had to guess, I'd say it's the state line that's wrong, but that's just a hunch.
(https://i.imgur.com/1YkhhHs.png)
In the 2010 U.S. Census data, the sliver of land north of State St. is assigned to Lawrenceville, Pennsylvania census block 3014. The census data shows this census block having 23 houses and 59 people. This implies that all of the people living along that stretch were counted as Pennsylvania residents.
(https://imgur.com/vSMgd5p.png)
I would absolutely trust the older topo maps, along with local GIS sources, over the new topo maps and/or the Federal census data they're based on. The TIGER dataset is pretty rife with examples of generalization, trying to force line segments in one feature class to align nicely with others, resulting in some pretty obvious deflection of things like boundaries where they a legally defined by surveyed lines, for example.
In fact, the bottom image seems to show an attempt by the census to reconcile this fact. It seems to show the state line where the Tioga County aerial photo does–that is, a negligible distance north of the street centerline (perhaps at about the pavement's edge), when in fact it's actually coincident with the municipal border on the north side of the houses. But at least they acknowledge that there's a tiny gore on the north side of the street.
When in doubt, I'd consult GIS parcel data or municipal tax maps. They will at least show where the boundary is understood to be when it really matters, notwithstanding any discrepancies in the legal definition of the boundary itself (as happened not long ago with the NC/SC border).
Quote from: wxfree on December 17, 2020, 02:54:03 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on December 15, 2020, 07:11:38 PM
It's not really a fake river boundary because for a very short segment (maybe a mile) the state boundary actually happens to follow a river, but the US 64 bridge at Fort Smith crosses over from Arkansas into Oklahoma at that location.
I never noticed that. According to the USGS map, the state line follows a (roughly) straight line up to Mill Creek, and then follows Mill Creek a few hundred feet to the Poteau River. It then follows the Poteau River about 1.6 miles to the Arkansas, just south of US 64. It follows the Arkansas River 0.4 mile and splits off just north of US 64.
Mill Creek starts in a hollow dividing George and Brooks Stephins Mountains, just south of I-540. It's about 7.5 miles long and its drainage area is quite narrow, with areas to the west draining into the Poteau and to the east draining into the Arkansas below Fort Smith. That makes me wonder whether this is the most minor stream that carries a state line.
I just lost 30 minutes of my day looking more into the OK/AR boundary, and it was interesting enough I figured I had to post about it here. It is a fascinating mess of legal documents, treaties, and bad surveys. The Arkansas State Constitution defines the state boundaries, but does not explicitly define the western boundary, leaving that to acts of Congress and treaties existing at the time of statehood. But the act of Congress that admitted Arkansas to the US also does not explicitly define the western boundary, instead referencing the 1828 Treaty of Washington between the United States and the Cherokees:
Quote from: 1828 Treaty of Washington, Article 1The Western boundary of Arkansas shall be, and the same is, hereby defined, viz: A line shall be run, commencing on Red River, at the point where the Eastern Choctaw line strikes said River, and run due North with said line to the River Arkansas, thence in a direct line to the South West corner of Missouri.
So that only defined the half north of the Arkansas River, and even that depended on the eastern boundary of the Choctaw Nation - which had been contentious ever since the beginning. The original 1820 treaty with the Choctaws put that line between the Arkansas and Red Rivers roughly between Morrilton and Fulton, AR. But white settlement had already advanced past there, and Congress tried to move the boundary to 40 miles west of the southwest corner of Missouri. A compromise line was set in an 1825 treaty:
Quote from: 1825 Treaty of Washington City, Article 1a line beginning on the Arkansas, one hundred paces east of Fort Smith, and running thence, due south, to Red river
A surveyor named James Conway was selected to survey that line, but he did not survey it directly to the south probably under intense pressure from the white Arkansas settlers. The Conway line angles slightly southwest, but the US government did not acknowledge this until the 1870s when the Choctaw were compensated for the bad survey.
After that the boundary was set at the Conway line, but that created a small strip of Choctaw land east of the Poteau River (and Mill Creek) where laws were rarely enforced. The Arkansas district court got jurisdiction over the strip to deal with that, and then Arkansas began to collect taxes from businesses there. Arkansas finally asked Congress to just make it part of Arkansas, which was done in 1905. The new legal definition in the Fort Smith area became:
QuoteBeginning at a point on the south bank of the Arkansas River one hundred paces east of old Fort Smith, where the western boundary line of the State of Arkansas crosses the said river, and running southwesterly along the south bank of the Arkansas River to the mouth of the Poteau; thence at right angles with the Poteau River to the center of the current of said river; thence southerly up the middle of the current of the Poteau River (except where the Arkansas State line intersects the Poteau River) to a point in the middle of the current of the Poteau River opposite the mouth of Mill Creek, and where it is intersected by the middle of the current of Mill Creek; thence up the middle of Mill Creek to the Arkansas State line; thence northerly along the Arkansas State line to the point of beginning
Interestingly, in 1985 Oklahoma actually sued Arkansas for control over that strip of land. They lost.
[...] I found a great international example that I wanted to share: the Missisquoi River Bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/place/U.S.+Customs+and+Border+Protection+-+East+Richford+Port+of+Entry/@45.0116594,-72.5885789,277m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4cb604c8234d4eaf:0x1b113c0893dfb2d2!8m2!3d45.0110597!4d-72.5877726) which connects East Richford, VT and Glen Sutton, QC. Note how the bridge over the Missisquoi River aligns with the VT/QC boundary, so you happen to cross both at once even though one does not follow the other. I thought that was pretty cool, all the more so because it's an international boundary, and it's certainly now on my bucket list of places to visit someday!
Almost, but not quite, but US 64 crosses from Oklahoma into Arkansas while crossing the Arkansas River, The vast, vast majority of the AR/OK boundary is a land border, but for about 1/2 mile, the state line is on the south bank of the Arkansas River. This happens to be where US 64 crosses the river. There are talks to build a new bridge somewhere near downtown, so this may change in the future.
Quote from: webny99 on April 13, 2022, 11:57:32 PM
I'm 99.99% sure we have had a thread about this before, but I cannot find it. If you find it, please share so this can be merged! [done -S.]
Thanks! Never thought to search for "fake", but that is certainly more succinct than my attempt at a title. :)
Quote from: GaryA on September 21, 2020, 01:04:21 PM
Quote from: Old Dominionite on September 21, 2020, 12:03:01 PM
Most of the Delaware Memorial Bridge is in Delaware as the state boundary runs along the east bank of the Delaware River. Since both Delaware and New Jersey place welcome signs on their respective shores, an unassuming motorist might think the state line crosses the bridges at mid-span. Only small (and unhelpful) blue signs are found at the actual state line, along with "0" mile markers from NJ.
Exactly four parcels, and one is a pier owned by the State of New Jersey. (I maintain New Castle County's cadastral data.)
And, because the border is based on the historic river bank, there are some areas on the NJ side of the river that are actually part of Delaware.
US 12 between Ortonville MN and Big Stone City SD, from the 1918 Automobile Blue Book:
QuoteCross small bridge, which is state line between South Dakota and Minnesota 1.8.
Quote from: NE2 on April 17, 2022, 08:28:36 PM
QuoteMinnesota 1.8.
When did they launch Minnesota 2.0?
I wouldn't trust Google map info as far as I can throw my laptop, especially regarding political boundaries.
My eyeballs tell me the state line is the back line of the properties along State Street. My gut tells me adverse possession is 9/10 of the law, so for all intents and purposes those properties lie in PA.
Quote from: Road Hog on May 24, 2022, 05:34:27 PM
I wouldn't trust Google map info as far as I can throw my laptop, especially regarding political boundaries.
My eyeballs tell me the state line is the back line of the properties along State Street. My gut tells me adverse possession is 9/10 of the law, so for all intents and purposes those properties lie in PA.
What are you referring to? It doesn't seem to fit the OP, nor any of the most recent posts, and the thread has been dormant for more than a month.
Quote from: kphoger on May 24, 2022, 07:55:29 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on May 24, 2022, 05:34:27 PM
I wouldn't trust Google map info as far as I can throw my laptop, especially regarding political boundaries.
My eyeballs tell me the state line is the back line of the properties along State Street. My gut tells me adverse possession is 9/10 of the law, so for all intents and purposes those properties lie in PA.
What are you referring to? It doesn't seem to fit the OP, nor any of the most recent posts, and the thread has been dormant for more than a month.
Looks like an "end of page 1" issue. Since you have most recent posts first, it's this one (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=27705.msg2535821#msg2535821).
Ah, thank you. Well, if you click on the houses that Google Maps supposedly thinks are in New York, the addresses do indeed pop up as Pennsylvania.
Example: https://goo.gl/maps/e878YE96jRWKwgm66
Quote from: Road Hog on May 24, 2022, 05:34:27 PM
I wouldn't trust Google map info as far as I can throw my laptop, especially regarding political boundaries.
My eyeballs tell me the state line is the back line of the properties along State Street. My gut tells me adverse possession is 9/10 of the law, so for all intents and purposes those properties lie in PA.
I mean...unless there's a boundary dispute, you wouldn't have to rely on adverse possession or anything like that. There is a known, factual answer out there somewhere–and you're right, of course, Google Maps isn't the authoritative source of it!
Quote from: Road Hog on May 24, 2022, 05:34:27 PM
My gut tells me adverse possession is 9/10 of the law, so for all intents and purposes those properties lie in PA.
I don't think adverse possession applies to state borders.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 29, 2022, 06:58:18 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on May 24, 2022, 05:34:27 PM
My gut tells me adverse possession is 9/10 of the law, so for all intents and purposes those properties lie in PA.
I don't think adverse possession applies to state borders.
Perhaps "amicable" possession, though? I'm sure there have been border anomalies where it was decided not to correct the error, because one party or the other had occupied land on the wrong side without incident for so long anyway.
Quote from: empirestate on May 30, 2022, 10:27:19 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 29, 2022, 06:58:18 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on May 24, 2022, 05:34:27 PM
My gut tells me adverse possession is 9/10 of the law, so for all intents and purposes those properties lie in PA.
I don't think adverse possession applies to state borders.
Perhaps "amicable" possession, though? I'm sure there have been border anomalies where it was decided not to correct the error, because one party or the other had occupied land on the wrong side without incident for so long anyway.
I am admittedly not an expert on this, but it is my understanding that states can mutually agree to change their borders with one another, with the assent of Congress, and have done so on a number of occasions.
If they don't agree, then one of the states can call upon the Supreme Court to settle the matter, which usually goes with whatever is physically marked on the ground.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 30, 2022, 02:35:57 PM
Quote from: empirestate on May 30, 2022, 10:27:19 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 29, 2022, 06:58:18 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on May 24, 2022, 05:34:27 PM
My gut tells me adverse possession is 9/10 of the law, so for all intents and purposes those properties lie in PA.
I don't think adverse possession applies to state borders.
Perhaps "amicable" possession, though? I'm sure there have been border anomalies where it was decided not to correct the error, because one party or the other had occupied land on the wrong side without incident for so long anyway.
I am admittedly not an expert on this, but it is my understanding that states can mutually agree to change their borders with one another, with the assent of Congress, and have done so on a number of occasions.
If they don't agree, then one of the states can call upon the Supreme Court to settle the matter, which usually goes with whatever is physically marked on the ground.
They can also go to war (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War) over it.
It might not be a mapping issue at all. Postal boundaries don't always follow political boundaries. It's entirely plausible that both sides of the street have the same mailing address regardless of where the town boundary "is."
Bringing this thread back with an example I drove through yesterday: FL 145/GA 31 at the Withlacoochee River (https://www.google.com/maps/@30.6352521,-83.3115697,284m/data=!3m1!1e3). The state boundary there is defined as a straight line from the confluence of the Chattahoochee and Flint Rivers east to the source of the St Mary's River, which just happens to cross the Withlacoochee River very close to GA 31. Technically the river and state boundary aren't in exactly the same place there, but the highway crosses the line on the bridge, just south of the actual stream, and this is posted at the start of the bridge:
(https://i.imgur.com/v3K3juk.jpg)
That sign is misleading in a number of ways - not only is the river not the state line, but it's where you enter Lowndes County. The Brooks-Lowndes county line follows the river, so GA 31 passes through Brooks County for a few hundred feet. They sign Lowndes County at the north end of the bridge:
(https://i.imgur.com/vT1hej7.jpg)
Going south, the river and Brooks County line are on the same sign at the start of the bridge, and then the Florida line is signed at the other end.
Here is a bump for PA 44 in Ceres, NY. The signage would make you think the Oswayo Creek is the state line, when in fact it is a straight line boundary just to the north.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/qDCUsMRVSREeQQpg6 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/qDCUsMRVSREeQQpg6)
Check out Street View here to see the signage. The Welcome to Pennsylvania sign is south of the bridge.
Quote from: Sam on May 30, 2022, 10:21:40 PM
It might not be a mapping issue at all. Postal boundaries don't always follow political boundaries. It's entirely plausible that both sides of the street have the same mailing address regardless of where the town boundary "is."
Postal carrier here.
This is indeed the case, especially when a zip code runs down the center of a street. Example: OR 213 (SE 82nd Ave) is the boundary for 97206/97266, and for 97215/97216.
My station covers the 97215 and 97266 zip codes (as well as 97236); the 97206 and 97216 zip codes are covered by two other stations.
If the building has a zip code assigned to 82nd Ave, regardless on how recessed from the street front (or even if the front and its mail delivery point is on a cross street!), it will be in the 97215 or 97266 zip code and be assigned to a route within.
SE Clatsop St, east of 82nd, is the Multnomah/Clackamas County line, and also the 97266/97086 and the 97236/97086 line, and in this case, addresses on the south side of Clatsop are 97086, while the north side is 97266 or 97236.
Carter Lake, Iowa, comes to mind. There was even a SCOTUS case which upheld that property lines cannot be changed by the avulsion of a river as happened to the Missouri River in 1877(?).
You guys do realize that the "entering the state of ...." sign is NOT always precisely installed on the state line? Nor is it an official surveying benchmark. It's spotted at or near the line, as the situation may allow. One thing I'll say is that whichever state posts the welcome signage, that signage will almost certainly be within their state.
Also, river boundaries are very complex creatures. There are river boundaries where the state line is in the middle of the river.....where it was when surveyed (which may well have been 200+ years ago). Rivers wander, but the boundary may not. Then you have the Potomac, where the state line is just offshore from the Virginia side of the river (meaning that 90% of the river lies in Maryland or DC). So, this entire thread may well be based on false assumptions.
Quote from: Sam on May 30, 2022, 10:21:40 PM
It might not be a mapping issue at all. Postal boundaries don't always follow political boundaries. It's entirely plausible that both sides of the street have the same mailing address regardless of where the town boundary "is."
Can attest to that. During the years I worked for my hometown newspaper, one vivid example of this manifested itself each year. Most local newspapers in Kentucky have three mail subscription rates: in-county, out-of-county but within the state, and out-of-state. We had one subscriber come in every year to renew, and he always made it a point to note that although his address was in McKee, Ky., (county seat of Jackson County), he did indeed live in Lee County and was entitled to the local in-county rate.
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on February 10, 2023, 01:02:54 PM
You guys do realize that the "entering the state of ...." sign is NOT always precisely installed on the state line? Nor is it an official surveying benchmark. It's spotted at or near the line, as the situation may allow. One thing I'll say is that whichever state posts the welcome signage, that signage will almost certainly be within their state.
Best indicator of the actual location of the state line is usually the pavement change.
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on February 10, 2023, 01:02:54 PM
You guys do realize that the "entering the state of ...." sign is NOT always precisely installed on the state line? Nor is it an official surveying benchmark. It's spotted at or near the line, as the situation may allow. One thing I'll say is that whichever state posts the welcome signage, that signage will almost certainly be within their state.
Ooh...ooh!! You inadvertently stumbled upon one of my favorite "games". Which states constantly sign the actual state line (in contrast to the "WELCOME TO STATE XYZ, THE GREAT PLACE TO VISIT, HOME OF THE LARGEST SACK OF PURE DOG CRAP"), which do it sometimes and which don't do it at all.
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on February 10, 2023, 01:02:54 PM
You guys do realize that the "entering the state of ...." sign is NOT always precisely installed on the state line? Nor is it an official surveying benchmark. It's spotted at or near the line, as the situation may allow. One thing I'll say is that whichever state posts the welcome signage, that signage will almost certainly be within their state.
Also, river boundaries are very complex creatures. There are river boundaries where the state line is in the middle of the river.....where it was when surveyed (which may well have been 200+ years ago). Rivers wander, but the boundary may not. Then you have the Potomac, where the state line is just offshore from the Virginia side of the river (meaning that 90% of the river lies in Maryland or DC). So, this entire thread may well be based on false assumptions.
This thread has nothing to do with actual river boundaries. This thread is about things like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/MFLMTq0.png)
The boundary is NOT the river. But the welcome signs on I-366 will probably be placed on either side of the river bridge, so travelers might get the impression that the river is the boundary.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 10, 2023, 04:58:48 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/MFLMTq0.png)
Ah yes, the infamous border with Idaho and Delaware.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on February 11, 2023, 04:27:43 AM
Ah yes, the infamous border with Idaho and Delaware.
That's why it's fake.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on February 11, 2023, 04:27:43 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 10, 2023, 04:58:48 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/MFLMTq0.png)
Ah yes, the infamous border with Idaho and Delaware.
Ah yes, it is infamous because it is the border between the two most powerful provinceblasts of the country of Totsoland, which is a colony of Alanland. How do I know this? The map style is exactly the same as the famous Alanland map on the corner of NW 34rd Avenue and Porcine Street in Camargo Oblast. Anyways, the provinceblasts have an all-encompassing rivalry in Alanball (the 3rd most official sport in Totsoland) that lives on in infamy because of the I-366 bridge over the Dorkler River elephant sparkler incident. I will not speak of such horrific events.
Quote from: GaryV on February 11, 2023, 07:11:10 AM
That's why it's fake.
Because of this false statement you are now exiled from Totsoland. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 Numberwang.
Quote from: CoreySamson on February 11, 2023, 01:47:09 PM
How do I know this? The map style is exactly the same as the famous Alanland map on the corner of NW 34rd Avenue and Porcine Street in Camargo Oblast.
The fact that I was trying to make it according to Wikipedia USRD map standards has Implications.