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Fake river boundaries

Started by Scott5114, September 20, 2020, 11:57:11 PM

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empirestate

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 29, 2022, 06:58:18 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on May 24, 2022, 05:34:27 PM
My gut tells me adverse possession is 9/10 of the law, so for all intents and purposes those properties lie in PA.

I don't think adverse possession applies to state borders.

Perhaps "amicable" possession, though? I'm sure there have been border anomalies where it was decided not to correct the error, because one party or the other had occupied land on the wrong side without incident for so long anyway.


CtrlAltDel

Quote from: empirestate on May 30, 2022, 10:27:19 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 29, 2022, 06:58:18 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on May 24, 2022, 05:34:27 PM
My gut tells me adverse possession is 9/10 of the law, so for all intents and purposes those properties lie in PA.

I don't think adverse possession applies to state borders.

Perhaps "amicable" possession, though? I'm sure there have been border anomalies where it was decided not to correct the error, because one party or the other had occupied land on the wrong side without incident for so long anyway.

I am admittedly not an expert on this, but it is my understanding that states can mutually agree to change their borders with one another, with the assent of Congress, and have done so on a number of occasions.

If they don't agree, then one of the states can call upon the Supreme Court to settle the matter, which usually goes with whatever is physically marked on the ground.
Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

skluth

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 30, 2022, 02:35:57 PM
Quote from: empirestate on May 30, 2022, 10:27:19 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 29, 2022, 06:58:18 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on May 24, 2022, 05:34:27 PM
My gut tells me adverse possession is 9/10 of the law, so for all intents and purposes those properties lie in PA.

I don't think adverse possession applies to state borders.

Perhaps "amicable" possession, though? I'm sure there have been border anomalies where it was decided not to correct the error, because one party or the other had occupied land on the wrong side without incident for so long anyway.

I am admittedly not an expert on this, but it is my understanding that states can mutually agree to change their borders with one another, with the assent of Congress, and have done so on a number of occasions.

If they don't agree, then one of the states can call upon the Supreme Court to settle the matter, which usually goes with whatever is physically marked on the ground.

They can also go to war over it.

Sam

It might not be a mapping issue at all. Postal boundaries don't always follow political boundaries. It's entirely plausible that both sides of the street have the same mailing address regardless of where the town boundary "is."  

US 89

Bringing this thread back with an example I drove through yesterday: FL 145/GA 31 at the Withlacoochee River. The state boundary there is defined as a straight line from the confluence of the Chattahoochee and Flint Rivers east to the source of the St Mary's River, which just happens to cross the Withlacoochee River very close to GA 31. Technically the river and state boundary aren't in exactly the same place there, but the highway crosses the line on the bridge, just south of the actual stream, and this is posted at the start of the bridge:



That sign is misleading in a number of ways - not only is the river not the state line, but it's where you enter Lowndes County. The Brooks-Lowndes county line follows the river, so GA 31 passes through Brooks County for a few hundred feet. They sign Lowndes County at the north end of the bridge:



Going south, the river and Brooks County line are on the same sign at the start of the bridge, and then the Florida line is signed at the other end.

kirbykart

Here is a bump for PA 44 in Ceres, NY. The signage would make you think the Oswayo Creek is the state line, when in fact it is a straight line boundary just to the north.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/qDCUsMRVSREeQQpg6

Check out Street View here to see the signage. The Welcome to Pennsylvania sign is south of the bridge.

Bickendan

Quote from: Sam on May 30, 2022, 10:21:40 PM
It might not be a mapping issue at all. Postal boundaries don't always follow political boundaries. It's entirely plausible that both sides of the street have the same mailing address regardless of where the town boundary "is."  
Postal carrier here.
This is indeed the case, especially when a zip code runs down the center of a street. Example: OR 213 (SE 82nd Ave) is the boundary for 97206/97266, and for 97215/97216.
My station covers the 97215 and 97266 zip codes (as well as 97236); the 97206 and 97216 zip codes are covered by two other stations.
If the building has a zip code assigned to 82nd Ave, regardless on how recessed from the street front (or even if the front and its mail delivery point is on a cross street!), it will be in the 97215 or 97266 zip code and be assigned to a route within.

SE Clatsop St, east of 82nd, is the Multnomah/Clackamas County line, and also the 97266/97086 and the 97236/97086 line, and in this case, addresses on the south side of Clatsop are 97086, while the north side is 97266 or 97236.

Fredddie

Carter Lake, Iowa, comes to mind. There was even a SCOTUS case which upheld that property lines cannot be changed by the avulsion of a river as happened to the Missouri River in 1877(?).

StogieGuy7

#83
You guys do realize that the "entering the state of ...." sign is NOT always precisely installed on the state line?  Nor is it an official surveying benchmark. It's spotted at or near the line, as the situation may allow. One thing I'll say is that whichever state posts the welcome signage, that signage will almost certainly be within their state.

Also, river boundaries are very complex creatures. There are river boundaries where the state line is in the middle of the river.....where it was when surveyed (which may well have been 200+ years ago). Rivers wander, but the boundary may not. Then you have the Potomac, where the state line is just offshore from the Virginia side of the river (meaning that 90% of the river lies in Maryland or DC).  So, this entire thread may well be based on false assumptions.

hbelkins

Quote from: Sam on May 30, 2022, 10:21:40 PM
It might not be a mapping issue at all. Postal boundaries don't always follow political boundaries. It's entirely plausible that both sides of the street have the same mailing address regardless of where the town boundary "is."

Can attest to that. During the years I worked for my hometown newspaper, one vivid example of this manifested itself each year. Most local newspapers in Kentucky have three mail subscription rates: in-county, out-of-county but within the state, and out-of-state. We had one subscriber come in every year to renew, and he always made it a point to note that although his address was in McKee, Ky., (county seat of Jackson County), he did indeed live in Lee County and was entitled to the local in-county rate.

Quote from: StogieGuy7 on February 10, 2023, 01:02:54 PM
You guys do realize that the "entering the state of ...." sign is NOT always precisely installed on the state line?  Nor is it an official surveying benchmark. It's spotted at or near the line, as the situation may allow. One thing I'll say is that whichever state posts the welcome signage, that signage will almost certainly be within their state.

Best indicator of the actual location of the state line is usually the pavement change.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

ethanhopkin14

Quote from: StogieGuy7 on February 10, 2023, 01:02:54 PM
You guys do realize that the "entering the state of ...." sign is NOT always precisely installed on the state line?  Nor is it an official surveying benchmark. It's spotted at or near the line, as the situation may allow. One thing I'll say is that whichever state posts the welcome signage, that signage will almost certainly be within their state.

Ooh...ooh!!  You inadvertently stumbled upon one of my favorite "games".  Which states constantly sign the actual state line (in contrast to the "WELCOME TO STATE XYZ, THE GREAT PLACE TO VISIT, HOME OF THE LARGEST SACK OF PURE DOG CRAP"), which do it sometimes and which don't do it at all. 

Scott5114

Quote from: StogieGuy7 on February 10, 2023, 01:02:54 PM
You guys do realize that the "entering the state of ...." sign is NOT always precisely installed on the state line?  Nor is it an official surveying benchmark. It's spotted at or near the line, as the situation may allow. One thing I'll say is that whichever state posts the welcome signage, that signage will almost certainly be within their state.

Also, river boundaries are very complex creatures. There are river boundaries where the state line is in the middle of the river.....where it was when surveyed (which may well have been 200+ years ago). Rivers wander, but the boundary may not. Then you have the Potomac, where the state line is just offshore from the Virginia side of the river (meaning that 90% of the river lies in Maryland or DC).  So, this entire thread may well be based on false assumptions.

This thread has nothing to do with actual river boundaries. This thread is about things like this:


The boundary is NOT the river. But the welcome signs on I-366 will probably be placed on either side of the river bridge, so travelers might get the impression that the river is the boundary.
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LilianaUwU

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GaryV

Quote from: LilianaUwU on February 11, 2023, 04:27:43 AM
Ah yes, the infamous border with Idaho and Delaware.
That's why it's fake.

CoreySamson

Quote from: LilianaUwU on February 11, 2023, 04:27:43 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 10, 2023, 04:58:48 PM

Ah yes, the infamous border with Idaho and Delaware.
Ah yes, it is infamous because it is the border between the two most powerful provinceblasts of the country of Totsoland, which is a colony of Alanland. How do I know this? The map style is exactly the same as the famous Alanland map on the corner of NW 34rd Avenue and Porcine Street in Camargo Oblast. Anyways, the provinceblasts have an all-encompassing rivalry in Alanball (the 3rd most official sport in Totsoland) that lives on in infamy because of the I-366 bridge over the Dorkler River elephant sparkler incident. I will not speak of such horrific events.

Quote from: GaryV on February 11, 2023, 07:11:10 AM
That's why it's fake.
Because of this false statement you are now exiled from Totsoland. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 Numberwang.
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Scott5114

Quote from: CoreySamson on February 11, 2023, 01:47:09 PM
How do I know this? The map style is exactly the same as the famous Alanland map on the corner of NW 34rd Avenue and Porcine Street in Camargo Oblast.

The fact that I was trying to make it according to Wikipedia USRD map standards has Implications.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef



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