I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange

[Beltway]

The nice people at the New Jersey Turnpike Authority got most of "their share" of this project done well ahead of PTC when then completed the widening from Exits 6 to 8A (including a lot of interchange reconstruction).
Only thing that NJTA has left is to work with PTC to get the crossing of the Delaware River expanded from 4 lanes to 8 lanes. 

2025 at the earliest, I believe.
That said, the crack that occurred last year should push this project into a more immediate concern. I don't believe the true root cause of that crack was ever determined.

I believe the plan is 3 lanes and a full right shoulder on the existing bridge and on the parallel bridge, correct?

Has a detailed funding package been announced for that project?  Since the state boundary is at the mid-point in the river, I would think that logically it should be funded 50% each by NJTA and PTC, so PTC is only one partner in getting this project built.

Phase I has a late 2019 completion date posted on the project website.  Given the various project components, this doesn't mean that the I-95 connection ramp highways might not open much sooner, perhaps within 6 months from today. 

Folks that have driven thru the project, does that seem likely?  What is the level of completion for the flyover bridges?  For retaining walls on the elevated ground approaches?  For the land roadways?

[cpzilliacus]

That said, the crack that occurred last year should push this project into a more immediate concern. I don't believe the true root cause of that crack was ever determined.

The cause of the crack in one of the steel beams was determined (apparently correctly) early on after it was discovered and the crossing closed to all traffic. 

The Philly.com site (again, apparently) got it right: Decades-old mistake may have caused bridge beam to fail

[Emphasis added]

An apparent construction error six decades ago could have caused the fracture discovered Friday in a steel beam that forced the closure of the Delaware River Bridge, an engineering expert who viewed pictures of the cracked truss said Sunday.

An image of the cracked truss - a supporting piece - on the bridge that runs between Bucks County in Pennsylvania and Burlington County in New Jersey shows signs of holes that had been mistakenly drilled into the steel beam and then filled with plug welds, a typical solution in the 1950s when the bridge was built, said Karl Frank, professor emeritus of engineering at the University of Texas at Austin. His areas of study include fractures and fatigues in metal structures and welded and bolted joints, according to the university website.

[cpzilliacus]

I believe the plan is 3 lanes and a full right shoulder on the existing bridge and on the parallel bridge, correct?

Both the Pennsylvania and New Jersey approaches to the crossing are six lanes wide (the six lane part of the Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-276 part of the East-West Mainline) currently ends eastbound at Exit 351 (U.S. 1, Bensalem), the New Jersey approach is six lanes almost up to the New Jersey landing of the structure).

Has a detailed funding package been announced for that project?  Since the state boundary is at the mid-point in the river, I would think that logically it should be funded 50% each by NJTA and PTC, so PTC is only one partner in getting this project built.

PTC has to widen much of the approach to the bridge to six lanes (some of which will apparently be done as part of the I-95 project), in addition to their half of added capacity over the Delaware River.  The relocated toll barrier at the east end of the Turnpike ticket system at Neshaminy Falls was widened through that area, providing two high-speed E-ZPass lanes in addition to several cash lanes each way.

Phase I has a late 2019 completion date posted on the project website.  Given the various project components, this doesn't mean that the I-95 connection ramp highways might not open much sooner, perhaps within 6 months from today.

Last I heard was that the flyover ramps to complete I-95 will be open to traffic in fall 2018. 

Folks that have driven thru the project, does that seem likely?  What is the level of completion for the flyover bridges?  For retaining walls on the elevated ground approaches?  For the land roadways?

I was through there as recently as yesterday (on I-95 (Delaware Expressway) not the Turnpike).   Still plenty of steel that needs to be hung for the flyovers (and then the decks installed, I think all cast-in-place), and there's work left to get the Delaware Expressway part of the project completed.  If the PTC's contractors were working as fast as those that built big projects to the south of Pennsylvania like the 11th Street, S.E. interchange (I-295/I-695/DC-295), MD-200, Springfield Interchange, the CBBT parallel trestles and the Wilson Bridge, this would be open to traffic in a matter of months (depending on weather, of course). Even with a winter shut-down, this would IMO be done by summer 2018. 

But PTC seems to like to move slowly.

[Beltway]

Phase I has a late 2019 completion date posted on the project website.  Given the various project components, this doesn't mean that the I-95 connection ramp highways might not open much sooner, perhaps within 6 months from today.

Last I heard was that the flyover ramps to complete I-95 will be open to traffic in fall 2018. 

Folks that have driven thru the project, does that seem likely?  What is the level of completion for the flyover bridges?  For retaining walls on the elevated ground approaches?  For the land roadways?

I was through there as recently as yesterday (on I-95 (Delaware Expressway) not the Turnpike).   Still plenty of steel that needs to be hung for the flyovers (and then the decks installed, I think all cast-in-place), and there's work left to get the Delaware Expressway part of the project completed.  If the PTC's contractors were working as fast as those that built big projects to the south of Pennsylvania like the 11th Street, S.E. interchange (I-295/I-695/DC-295), MD-200, Springfield Interchange, the CBBT parallel trestles and the Wilson Bridge, this would be open to traffic in a matter of months (depending on weather, of course). Even with a winter shut-down, this would IMO be done by summer 2018. 
But PTC seems to like to move slowly.

Well, the Springfield Interchange had to be built ramp by ramp working around the traffic, and Phases 1 thru 7 took from 1999 to 2007.  Phase 8 opened in 2012 with the I-495 HOT Lanes project.

The Wilson Bridge Project took from 2000 thru 2009 to build it from Telegraph Road eastward to the Maryland project terminus.  The final segment including Telegraph Road to the Virginia project terminus took from 2009 to 2013, it was delayed due to funding issues.

The I-495 HOT Lanes project did move fast, 2008 thru 2012, and that involved a full rebuild of 11 miles of beltway to 12 lanes, all bridges replaced, upgrade of I-66 interchange, Phase 8 of SIIP.  All done while maintaining about 200,000 AADT. 

How long are those PA I-95 bridges, and how long are the approaches with retaining walls?

[briantroutman]

Folks that have driven thru the project, does that seem likely?  What is the level of completion for the flyover bridges?  For retaining walls on the elevated ground approaches?  For the land roadways?

Take a look at this post and sketch I posted a few days ago. I think it's about as comprehensive an update as you'll get from this thread.

How long are those PA I-95 bridges, and how long are the approaches with retaining walls?

I don't have measurements, but when I drove through the interchange area Saturday (for the first in a long time), I was quite surprised by the lengths of the both the approach and the elevated roadway. That's why I think that calling the project "two ramps"  is quite an understatement–it's its own little elevated freeway.

Has a detailed funding package been announced for that project?  Since the state boundary is at the mid-point in the river, I would think that logically it should be funded 50% each by NJTA and PTC, so PTC is only one partner in getting this project built.

No, both Stage 2 (the other I-95 interchange movements) and Stage 3 (the parallel Delaware River bridge) are currently unfunded.

In terms of toll revenues, I see this project being only a loss for the NJTA and DRPA and gain for the PTC. In addition to possibly siphoning off some I-95 traffic that would have otherwise followed the NJ Turnpike straight to Delaware, the completed I-95/PA Turnpike interchange will also open up what amounts to a new river crossing to Philadelphia and could take some traffic away from both the NJ Turnpike and the DRPA bridges. I'd be interested to see projections of traffic pattern and volume changes following the interchange's opening.

But even in the absence of official projections, what are your thoughts: How much southbound I-95 traffic will exit onto the PA Turnpike once I-95 shields go up? For that matter, how many northbound interstate travelers today are blindly following I-95 shields north through Delaware and Pennsylvania only to find themselves at a dead end in Trenton?

[Beltway]

Folks that have driven thru the project, does that seem likely?  What is the level of completion for the flyover bridges?  For retaining walls on the elevated ground approaches?  For the land roadways?

Take a look at this post and sketch I posted a few days ago. I think it's about as comprehensive an update as you'll get from this thread.

How long are those PA I-95 bridges, and how long are the approaches with retaining walls?

I don't have measurements, but when I drove through the interchange area Saturday (for the first in a long time), I was quite surprised by the lengths of the both the approach and the elevated roadway. That's why I think that calling the project "two ramps"  is quite an understatement–it's its own little elevated freeway.

That is why I called it a "ramp highway", I suspect there is much more to constructing this connection on active highways than might meet the eye.  Plus IIRC from the project website the last major contract was begun in mid-2015.

Has a detailed funding package been announced for that project?  Since the state boundary is at the mid-point in the river, I would think that logically it should be funded 50% each by NJTA and PTC, so PTC is only one partner in getting this project built.

No, both Stage 2 (the other I-95 interchange movements) and Stage 3 (the parallel Delaware River bridge) are currently unfunded.
In terms of toll revenues, I see this project being only a loss for the NJTA and DRPA and gain for the PTC. In addition to possibly siphoning off some I-95 traffic that would have otherwise followed the NJ Turnpike straight to Delaware, the completed I-95/PA Turnpike interchange will also open up what amounts to a new river crossing to Philadelphia and could take some traffic away from both the NJ Turnpike and the DRPA bridges. I'd be interested to see projections of traffic pattern and volume changes following the interchange's opening.
But even in the absence of official projections, what are your thoughts: How much southbound I-95 traffic will exit onto the PA Turnpike once I-95 shields go up? For that matter, how many northbound interstate travelers today are blindly following I-95 shields north through Delaware and Pennsylvania only to find themselves at a dead end in Trenton?

Well, technically they could continue where it becomes I-295 and then take I-195 to the NJTP northward.


Thanks for the project details!

Given the traffic pressures on the NJTP and DRBA bridges, they might welcome some relief.

[ilpt4u]

Stupid question, and probably has been asked here before...

But why doesn't the NJTP south of the PA Turnpike exit get an Interstate designation, like an (even)95?

Is it because I-295 is already parallel to it?

I would simply think for Thru Traffic Purposes, especially once the I-95 project is done, that adding that trusty Blue and Red shield and designation might help keep Thru Traffic to Delaware and Points South on the NJTP. 695 and 895 are available in NJ, I believe?

Of course, when this is all done and I-95 taking over I-276 between the PA Turnpike and NJTP, there will be the awesome oddity of Child and Parent in NJ crossing with no interchange (95 and 295)

[bzakharin]

It is curious that Westbound (Southbound) traffic on the bridge must pay two tolls (the entrance from US 130 is tolled), while Eastbound (Northbound) traffic can use the bridge toll free even today (by using US 130 on the NJ side and US 13 on the PA side). Also, shouldn't there be express tolls on the NJ side just like there are on the PA side to provide a seamless I-95 experience?

Also, given NJTA's toll structure, the toll is actually higher at exit 6 than exit 4, so any Philly-bound traffic from the mainline using the Turnpike bridge pays more to the NJTA than traffic using DRPA bridges. The only revenue that will be lost by the NJTA is for longer distance traffic using I-95 instead of the Turnpike. It remains to be seen if such will materialize. And they will actually gain $3 if anyone decides to use I-95 to get to the local NJ suburbs (this too may or may not happen).

[jemacedo9]

But my guess is that the biggest issue is overall cash outlay.  They have several 6-lane widening contracts occurring at the same time (I-476 MM20-31), I-76 Harrisburg area, west of Carlisle, and Pittsburgh area; new freeway in the Pittsburgh area, and some significant bridge replacements. So, there's a balancing act that needs to be considered.

The I-476 MM20-31 widening project was completed about a month ago.

Yes, so the cash outlay for that project is just ending...which should either free up cash outlay for this project, or free up cash outlay to begin another project somewhere else on the system. I think the MM31-38 project may be starting up soon?

Projects are budgeted years in advance. The budget for this project was already put in place before it went out to bid many years ago. And delays are due to issues that came about during construction. They probably need more money due to unforeseen issues, but that would cause a delay of other projects.

Since it would make sense that this project would encourage people to use the WB NJ/PA Turnpike bridge, it would make sense to push it along at a faster pace, not slow it down!

Correct. So, let me change my statement this way:  the speed of this project was determined when the budgets were set, with the attempt of balancing all of the major projects that the PATC were planning to occur at the same time.  Planning a faster time frame would have required shifting money away from other projects towards this one; further delaying those other projects during the planning stage.  I don't think the PATC is dragging this project out in a vacuum.

If there is an argument as to which other projects should have been delayed, or should not have been as high of a priority; that may be. For example, the widening west of Carlisle, IMO, could have been a lower priority compared to this. But that's a more constructive debate.

[jeffandnicole]

Since the state boundary is at the mid-point in the river, I would think that logically it should be funded 50% each by NJTA and PTC, so PTC is only one partner in getting this project built.

The Turnpikes have long standing agreement that project costs will be split 50/50. The NJ Turnpike is the lead agency. This was true even for The Crack, which was fully on the PA side of the bridge.

But why doesn't the NJTP south of the PA Turnpike exit get an Interstate designation, like an (even)95? Is it because I-295 is already parallel to it?

I doubt it, being that the NJ Turnpike was there before 295. Originally the Turnpike was to only gain the 95 designation from 287 and North.

I think the simple answer is: The Turnpike never desired to have it designated as an interstate. I wouldn't be surprised if the 95 designation was forced on it many decades ago.

...possibly siphoning off some I-95 traffic that would have otherwise followed the NJ Turnpike straight to Delaware, the completed I-95/PA Turnpike interchange...

As Beltway alluded to, that may not be a bad thing. Traffic volumes are pretty close to necessitate an expensive widening.

Of course, when this is all done and I-95 taking over I-276 between the PA Turnpike and NJTP, there will be the awesome oddity of Child and Parent in NJ crossing with no interchange (95 and 295).

Technically, that exists today. The NJ Turnpike's PA Extension is already designated as 95.

[cpzilliacus]

Since the state boundary is at the mid-point in the river, I would think that logically it should be funded 50% each by NJTA and PTC, so PTC is only one partner in getting this project built.

The Turnpikes have long standing agreement that project costs will be split 50/50. The NJ Turnpike is the lead agency. This was true even for The Crack, which was fully on the PA side of the bridge.

I think the engineering staff working for the NJTA handled it well.  The bridge deck was jacked into alignment and the cracked member was repaired, the rest of the structure was inspected for similar problems (and potential problems) and I have not heard of any issues with the bridge since then. 

But why doesn't the NJTP south of the PA Turnpike exit get an Interstate designation, like an (even)95? Is it because I-295 is already parallel to it?

I doubt it, being that the NJ Turnpike was there before 295. Originally the Turnpike was to only gain the 95 designation from 287 and North.

The idea of un-numbered (at least for the public) toll roads is past.  The "secret" NJ-700 part of the New Jersey Turnpike should be signed as I-895, so drivers know that Exits 1 to 6 are a reliable way to return to I-95.

I think the simple answer is: The Turnpike never desired to have it designated as an interstate. I wouldn't be surprised if the 95 designation was forced on it many decades ago.

Better (for NJTA and its bondholders) to have the Turnpike signed as I-95 instead of the Somerset Freeway.

...possibly siphoning off some I-95 traffic that would have otherwise followed the NJ Turnpike straight to Delaware, the completed I-95/PA Turnpike interchange...

As Beltway alluded to, that may not be a bad thing. Traffic volumes are pretty close to necessitate an expensive widening.

That would be revenue-generating traffic - for the Turnpike Authority and its service plazas.  Bridges over and under the Turnpike (1 to 6) appear to have been reconstructed in anticipation of a 6-lane or even 8-lane Turnpike.

Of course, when this is all done and I-95 taking over I-276 between the PA Turnpike and NJTP, there will be the awesome oddity of Child and Parent in NJ crossing with no interchange (95 and 295).

Almost a Breezewood!  But I-195 to Exit 7A is not that far away.

My bigger gripe is the lack of a direct connection between the Turnpike and NJ-42 and the ACE.  Exit 2A, anyone?

Technically, that exists today. The NJ Turnpike's PA Extension is already designated as 95.

Correct.

[cpzilliacus]

I would simply think for Thru Traffic Purposes, especially once the I-95 project is done, that adding that trusty Blue and Red shield and designation might help keep Thru Traffic to Delaware and Points South on the NJTP. 695 and 895 are available in NJ, I believe?

I-895.  Consistent with Maryland's I-895, which connects to I-95 with no muss, no fuss, at both ends.

[SignBridge]

I think adding another Interstate number to the mix will confuse people (including me!) more. I like the south end of the NJT un-numbered. Going south ya' just keep going straight to get to Delaware.

[Beltway]

Of course, when this is all done and I-95 taking over I-276 between the PA Turnpike and NJTP, there will be the awesome oddity of Child and Parent in NJ crossing with no interchange (95 and 295).

Almost a Breezewood!  But I-195 to Exit 7A is not that far away.

I-295 was completed up to Bordentown in 1977, crossing the NJTP PA Extension.   I-295 and I-195 were completed in 1993 when the Trenton Complex (295/195/29) was completed and opened.

Connection between the northerly NJTP and I-295 is indeed handled well with I-195 to Exit 7A.

Since these highways all reached completion 24 years ago, has there been any real officially recognized problem or lack in that time with the lack of a direct interchange between I-295 and the NJTP PA Extension?

The only possibly obvious addition would be two ramps, connecting westerly NJTP PA Extension with northerly I-295, but has that ever been an officially recognized problem?

[cpzilliacus]

Of course, when this is all done and I-95 taking over I-276 between the PA Turnpike and NJTP, there will be the awesome oddity of Child and Parent in NJ crossing with no interchange (95 and 295).

Almost a Breezewood!  But I-195 to Exit 7A is not that far away.

I-295 was completed up to Bordentown in 1977, crossing the NJTP PA Extension.   I-295 and I-195 were completed in 1993 when the Trenton Complex (295/195/29) was completed and opened.

Connection between the northerly NJTP and I-295 is indeed handled well with I-195 to Exit 7A.

Since these highways all reached completion 24 years ago, has there been any real officially recognized problem or lack in that time with the lack of a direct interchange between I-295 and the NJTP PA Extension?

The only possibly obvious addition would be two ramps, connecting westerly NJTP PA Extension with northerly I-295, but has that ever been an officially recognized problem?

This is a rare case, IMO - a non-connection between a "free" freeway and a toll road that is not a big deal. 

I suppose a connection could be constructed, but regardless of where it was built, it would be uncomfortably close to the Exit 6 ramps to the mainline New Jersey Turnpike or to the un-numbered interchange for U.S. 130 (Florence).

[cpzilliacus]

I think adding another Interstate number to the mix will confuse people (including me!) more. I like the south end of the NJT un-numbered. Going south ya' just keep going straight to get to Delaware.

I disagree.

The signs approaching Exit 6 southbound will tell drivers headed south to follow I-95 across the Delaware River and through Center City Philadelphia on the Delaware Expressway.

At least (IMO) for traffic headed south into (most parts of) Delaware and beyond,  the New Jersey Turnpike is a better choice.  Signing it as I-895 helps to reinforce that idea with drivers.

[roadman65]

Does not the GPS, tell people where to go anyway?  I would assume that it would keep sending folks down the Turnpike to I-295, across the Delaware Memorial Bridge, and then back on I-95 once this is completed?

I think if the GPS were to send people from NYC to DC via I-78 West and then I-81 South to I-83 South and then I-695 around the long loop of Baltimore and then finally down I-95 just for an experiment, many of course would not only follow that route, but never realize they went miles out of their way.   That is how clueless the world is now thanks to that form of technology.

[Roadgeekteen]

Does anyone know the estimated completion date for this interchange?

[ilpt4u]

This is a rare case, IMO - a non-connection between a "free" freeway and a toll road that is not a big deal. 

I suppose a connection could be constructed, but regardless of where it was built, it would be uncomfortably close to the Exit 6 ramps to the mainline New Jersey Turnpike or to the un-numbered interchange for U.S. 130 (Florence).

Illinois politicians raised a big stink about the missing I-294/Tri-State and I-57 connection in the South Chicago Suburbs for years, until (at least Phase 1) got built and opened a few years ago, despite that there were 2 close-by options to make the connection -- Surface Street US 6/159th St, for about 1 mile between the I-294 cloverleaf and the I-57 cloverleaf, and the All-Interstate, signed and official connection, of I-294 South to I-80 West to I-57, which was all of about 5 miles

That was less mileage out of the way than I-195 to I-295 here, and ended up built. But there was local outcry for it. If there isn't any in Southern NJ, then I don't really see an issue, other than it just being odd, having I-95 and I-295 cross but not connect

Technically, that exists today. The NJ Turnpike's PA Extension is already designated as 95.

Technically, yes. Practically, not until this interchange Phase 1 is completed, making I-95 continuous and finally get signed over this segment, that at present is not

[ilpt4u]

Does not the GPS, tell people where to go anyway?  I would assume that it would keep sending folks down the Turnpike to I-295, across the Delaware Memorial Bridge, and then back on I-95 once this is completed?

I think if the GPS were to send people from NYC to DC via I-78 West and then I-81 South to I-83 South and then I-695 around the long loop of Baltimore and then finally down I-95 just for an experiment, many of course would not only follow that route, but never realize they went miles out of their way.   That is how clueless the world is now thanks to that form of technology.

If GPS said to drive off a cliff...

Are we really that bad, that we have become Lemmings? Don't answer that, I already know the answer... 

[roadman65]

I don't think that even the NJ Turnpike is yet signed south of Exit 9 (from photos I have seen) either.

[Beltway]

I-295 was completed up to Bordentown in 1977, crossing the NJTP PA Extension.   I-295 and I-195 were completed in 1993 when the Trenton Complex (295/195/29) was completed and opened.
Connection between the northerly NJTP and I-295 is indeed handled well with I-195 to Exit 7A.
Since these highways all reached completion 24 years ago, has there been any real officially recognized problem or lack in that time with the lack of a direct interchange between I-295 and the NJTP PA Extension?
The only possibly obvious addition would be two ramps, connecting westerly NJTP PA Extension with northerly I-295, but has that ever been an officially recognized problem?

This is a rare case, IMO - a non-connection between a "free" freeway and a toll road that is not a big deal. 
I suppose a connection could be constructed, but regardless of where it was built, it would be uncomfortably close to the Exit 6 ramps to the mainline New Jersey Turnpike or to the un-numbered interchange for U.S. 130 (Florence).

Collector-Distributor roadways and/or braided ramps could handle the traffic between the interchanges.  Obviously some traffic would use such an interchange.  But I don't suspect that this non-junction has ever been a significant issue.

[Roadgeekteen]

Does not the GPS, tell people where to go anyway?  I would assume that it would keep sending folks down the Turnpike to I-295, across the Delaware Memorial Bridge, and then back on I-95 once this is completed?

I think if the GPS were to send people from NYC to DC via I-78 West and then I-81 South to I-83 South and then I-695 around the long loop of Baltimore and then finally down I-95 just for an experiment, many of course would not only follow that route, but never realize they went miles out of their way.   That is how clueless the world is now thanks to that form of technology.

If GPS said to drive off a cliff...

Are we really that bad, that we have become Lemmings? Don't answer that, I already know the answer... 

How dumb would someone have to be to drive of a cliff because of gps?

[ilpt4u]

Does not the GPS, tell people where to go anyway?  I would assume that it would keep sending folks down the Turnpike to I-295, across the Delaware Memorial Bridge, and then back on I-95 once this is completed?

I think if the GPS were to send people from NYC to DC via I-78 West and then I-81 South to I-83 South and then I-695 around the long loop of Baltimore and then finally down I-95 just for an experiment, many of course would not only follow that route, but never realize they went miles out of their way.   That is how clueless the world is now thanks to that form of technology.

If GPS said to drive off a cliff...

Are we really that bad, that we have become Lemmings? Don't answer that, I already know the answer... 

How dumb would someone have to be to drive of a cliff because of gps?

I have read News Stories about motorists driving thru/past "Road Closed" signs, to their peril, over an out bridge. Why? Because the GPS said so

That isn't very far from drive off a cliff

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/31/driver-follows-gps-off-demolished-bridge-killing-wife-police-say/

Thats the one I remember reading about, on Cline Ave/IN 912 which has had a bridge out for years and may never be rebuilt

[Beltway]

Illinois politicians raised a big stink about the missing I-294/Tri-State and I-57 connection in the South Chicago Suburbs for years, until (at least Phase 1) got built and opened a few years ago, despite that there were 2 close-by options to make the connection -- Surface Street US 6/159th St, for about 1 mile between the I-294 cloverleaf and the I-57 cloverleaf, and the All-Interstate, signed and official connection, of I-294 South to I-80 West to I-57, which was all of about 5 miles
That was less mileage out of the way than I-195 to I-295 here, and ended up built. But there was local outcry for it. If there isn't any in Southern NJ, then I don't really see an issue, other than it just being odd, having I-95 and I-295 cross but not connect

Yes, there was an all-Interstate connection using a segment of I-80 and an additional segment of I-294, but from what I heard there were also peak periods congestion problems on those segments, that the direct connection now bypasses.   Those two ramps are long and cost about $100 million to build.