reflective sheeting over the years

[J N Winkler]

this one, and its pair about 300 feet away in the opposite direction, date back to 1951.  This is an old US-50 alignment.  Porcelain, neon underlighting, no reflectors, everything about this sign is old!  One of the very very first overhead black guide signs put up in CA.

Put me out of my misery:  where is this located?  I've just about narrowed it down to Sacramento, SF or Hayward, but haven't found a plausible split near a 12th St./14th St. pair in any of those cities.

green guide signs in 1954? I'd love to see that!

Here you go (Traffic Engineering, March 1954):

[agentsteel53]

Put me out of my misery:  where is this located?  I've just about narrowed it down to Sacramento, SF or Hayward, but haven't found a plausible split near a 12th St./14th St. pair in any of those cities.

Oakland, 12th St. Westbound, with Lake Merritt off to the immediate right of the picture.  The Alameda County Courthouse is in the background. 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=oakland+ca&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Oakland,+Alameda,+California&ll=37.798967,-122.260779&spn=0.00145,0.003178&z=19&layer=c&cbll=37.799021,-122.260902&panoid=1_8aBhSCmAWtc8G3HBdpPA&cbp=12,292.44,,0,7.05

here is its counterpart going in the other direction:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=oakland+ca&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Oakland,+Alameda,+California&ll=37.798103,-122.259821&spn=0.00145,0.003178&z=19&layer=c&cbll=37.798073,-122.259639&panoid=zI8LoeVYRj2NMrLqI5cgcQ&cbp=12,138.41,,0,5

[J N Winkler]

DRAT.  Close to a BART station too.  I missed my chance to see it in early September . . .

[agentsteel53]

DRAT.  Close to a BART station too.  I missed my chance to see it in early September . . .

sounds like me with this error US-99 guide sign in Sacramento.  I drove right under it.



bastards had the temerity to install it a week after I was there!

[myosh_tino]

DRAT.  Close to a BART station too.  I missed my chance to see it in early September . . .

sounds like me with this error US-99 guide sign in Sacramento.  I drove right under it.



bastards had the temerity to install it a week after I was there!

Is that sign on U.S. 50 heading into downtown Sacramento and when was it taken?  I was out that way about two months ago and never noticed it.Oops, never mind.  It's on Business 80 eastbound heading towards the BL80/CA-99/US 50 interchange.  Anyone know if this sign has been corrected?

[agentsteel53]

It's on Business 80 eastbound heading towards the BL80/CA-99/US 50 interchange.  Anyone know if this sign has been corrected?

as of two days ago, not yet corrected.

is the road US-50 as well?  It is signed US-50 on another panel for the through traffic, but debate exists whether 50 ends at the midpoint of business 80, or if it makes it all the way to I-80 (former I-880).

[J N Winkler]

AFAIK, concurrencies don't exist on California state routes as legally defined, so I interpret that to mean Route 51 (the eastern half of Business 80) ends at US 50, with the western half being part of US 50.

[Alps]

Steve A. will argue that these are dark dark dark green; they are certainly darker than the dark dark green that the turnpike started using in the early 1960s.

Look at the photo.  You clearly see green streaks in it.  The difference is that the earliest signs were hand-painted (also see NB onramp from US 9/NJ 184 to GSP/NJTP).

[Alps]

and as a bonus, here is a sign in Pennsylvania that, from what I can tell, is entirely non-reflective.  It's green, but definitely dates to the late 1950s.

The letters etc. are button copy.

[TheStranger]

It's on Business 80 eastbound heading towards the BL80/CA-99/US 50 interchange.  Anyone know if this sign has been corrected?

as of two days ago, not yet corrected.

is the road US-50 as well?  It is signed US-50 on another panel for the through traffic, but debate exists whether 50 ends at the midpoint of business 80, or if it makes it all the way to I-80 (former I-880).

Business 80 between I-80 in West Sacramento and the Oak Park interchange (with Route 99) is legislatively US 50, and signed as US 50 (and Business 80) in its entirety eastbound.  Westbound, it gets funky, as I mentioned in another thread a week or two ago: Route 99 North (which is correct for a mile or two), TO I-80 West, and Business 80 west.

[agentsteel53]

The letters etc. are button copy.

they are not.  I looked close.  It looks like a Montana sign with individually affixed letters and symbols, but without buttons on them.

[agentsteel53]

Look at the photo.  You clearly see green streaks in it.  The difference is that the earliest signs were hand-painted (also see NB onramp from US 9/NJ 184 to GSP/NJTP).

I always thought that was from corrosion (see also brown streaks).  In any case, the outer layer is black, or at the very least, darker than the NJ 3 gantry! 

[BigMattFromTexas]

it looks like a similar thing is happening to that 277 as with the Vermont 100: where black is flaking off, unworn reflective sheeting is poking through. 

does the shield have a stamp or sticker on the back?

Nope, no sticker just some rust

[NJRoadfan]

Look at the photo.  You clearly see green streaks in it.  The difference is that the earliest signs were hand-painted (also see NB onramp from US 9/NJ 184 to GSP/NJTP).

2001 Photo of the sign in question (its still there)


Here are some more extra dark green NJTP button copy signs at Exit 9. Its kinda ironic a well funded toll road is the one with all the old signs.



Even new NJTP signs are kinda dark green



This sign (since replaced) is off of S/B Exit 129 of the GSP. It likely dated to the 1960s or so.



NJDOT kept putting up button copy close to the end of it being produced. They loved fully reflective sheeting plus button copy. They even went the extra step and maintained the lighting for awhile. No problem seeing those signs at night.

[J N Winkler]

Some additional information on the gantry with the error US 99 shield which Jake posted upthread:  there are three sign panels, all installed as part of Caltrans contract number 03-1E0414 (US 50 rehabilitation and median barrier refurbishment through Sacramento).  The one on left says "US 50 East/South Lake Tahoe/Left 4 Lanes," while the one on right is a lane-drop exit direction sign for 15th St.  The construction plans do show the middle sign with a correct SR 99 shield, so either the contractor goofed or someone within Caltrans made a mistake on the SIO.

[myosh_tino]

Some additional information on the gantry with the error US 99 shield which Jake posted upthread:  there are three sign panels, all installed as part of Caltrans contract number 03-1E0414 (US 50 rehabilitation and median barrier refurbishment through Sacramento).  The one on left says "US 50 East/South Lake Tahoe/Left 4 Lanes," while the one on right is a lane-drop exit direction sign for 15th St.  The construction plans do show the middle sign with a correct SR 99 shield, so either the contractor goofed or someone within Caltrans made a mistake on the SIO.

Here is the a photo of the actual sign you speak of.  It's posted on AARoads.

[TheStranger]

Inspired by this thread, I got my own photo of the entire assembly containing that US 99 reflective sign:


(Funny, just as I'm about to post my shot, someone else posts their own too!  That's pretty awesome timing.  )

And for comparison, here's this ancient dark-green button copy US 50/Route 99 sign on 65th Street in Tahoe Park:


That blank space on the left used to be an I-80 shield (not sure why it wasn't replaced with a Business 80 shield) looking at the glue marks, enhanced here through the magic of photo-editing software:

[agentsteel53]

That blank space on the left used to be an I-80 shield (not sure why it wasn't replaced with a Business 80 shield) looking at the glue marks, enhanced here through the magic of photo-editing software:

that is an excellent green sign!  I did not know about that one.  Must date to between about 1968 and 1972. 

Are there any overt I-880 scrape-offs other than the ones on I-80?  On I-80 one can see, underneath several I-80 shields, the remnants of a much larger (three-digit) shield.

[TheStranger]

That blank space on the left used to be an I-80 shield (not sure why it wasn't replaced with a Business 80 shield) looking at the glue marks, enhanced here through the magic of photo-editing software:

that is an excellent green sign!  I did not know about that one.  Must date to between about 1968 and 1972. 

Here's another interesting thought I just realized:

Probably the reason 50 and 99 are together on that ancient sign...has NOTHING to do with the modern day co-routing of the two along the WX segment of the Capitol City Freeway...but likely a reference to the pre-1972 co-routing to Stockton!  Of course, back then, 50 DID continue to San Francisco (via 99, 4, 5, 205, and 580 to 80).

Are there any overt I-880 scrape-offs other than the ones on I-80?  On I-80 one can see, underneath several I-80 shields, the remnants of a much larger (three-digit) shield.

Honestly, I haven't seen any.

I HAVE seen a postmile for Route 80 on the N Street offramp off of Business 80...

[agentsteel53]

Probably the reason 50 and 99 are together on that ancient sign...has NOTHING to do with the modern day co-routing of the two along the WX segment of the Capitol City Freeway...but likely a reference to the pre-1972 co-routing to Stockton!  Of course, back then, 50 DID continue to San Francisco (via 99, 4, 5, 205, and 580 to 80).

what does WX stand for?  Western Extension?

[J N Winkler]

WX Freeway = length of current Business 80 on embankment between W and X Streets (east of I-5 interchange).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_80_Business_(Sacramento,_California)

The SF Bay Area gets all the attention, but Sacramento's freeway system has its full share of historical quirks.  I-5 past Old Town Sacramento was the scene of a freeway routing controversy in the early 1960's which was somewhat obscured by the fireworks in SF.

[TheStranger]

The SF Bay Area gets all the attention, but Sacramento's freeway system has its full share of historical quirks.  I-5 past Old Town Sacramento was the scene of a freeway routing controversy in the early 1960's which was somewhat obscured by the fireworks in SF.

Also, land was purchased for several bypass routes that were ultimately voted down in the 1970s - an extension of then-I-880 (now I-80) approximately along Winding Way to Rancho Cordova (Route 244), the freeway which would have relieved Watt Avenue/Elk Grove-Florin Road between Elk Grove and North Highlands (Route 143), and a route that would have served Sunrise Mall along Greenback Lane (Route 102).  All those were never constructed; the only proposed freeway remaining in the area is Route 65 (though I have seen an article in the Bee bringing up the Route 143 corridor again).

this doesn't even begin to mention the cancellation of an interstate-standard I-80 between what was once I-880 and midtown (approximately at E Street, where the 1960s I-80/US 99E freeway ended), instead leaving the area with the old 1940s US 40/99E freeway as Business 80.

---

back on topic, here's an interesting reflective diagrammatic arrow on Route 99 south of Stockton that looks pretty ancient:
http://bit.ly/1iotGD
Not sure if this is a 1980s sign, or earlier...I have a photo of it I'll upload later...

[TheStranger]

The old non-reflective sign for I-80/Route 99 on southbound Stockton Boulevard at US 50 (Exit 7) was removed sometime within the last week, replaced with a modern reflective sign for "TO Business 80/Route 99."  I do think I did get a photograph of the old sign at some point before it was removed, but am not sure...much of the older signage in metro Sacramento has been coming down in the last few weeks in the midst of a major sign replacement project in the area.

[agentsteel53]

a major sign replacement project in the area.

because California is just drowning in excess cash, and can afford this...

[TheStranger]

a major sign replacement project in the area.

because California is just drowning in excess cash, and can afford this...

The best part is that the signage project has managed to not accomplish a couple of things:

- the I-80/Business 80/US 50 junction is NOT numbered going eastbound!  Neither, going eastbound as well, is the US 50/Business 80/Route 99 junction.
- westbound from 65th Street on, US 50 isn't signed at all - still - instead being signed as "TO I-80 West" in East Sacramento, a full 5-6 miles from I-80.