Roads and Rails

[Nexis4Jersey]

Oh what a shame , oh well , back to annoying the cash Cow FEDS for Rail projects ,but i think its time that are Highways and Railways go private, i think it would be in the best interests of the Country and future growth.

[Roadgeek Adam]

Oh what a shame , oh well , back to annoying the cash Cow FEDS for Rail projects ,but i think its time that are Highways and Railways go private, i think it would be in the best interests of the Country and future growth.

It needs to be dead. Its not going in the right places.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Whats not going to the right places?

[Chris]

Specific taxes (tolls) should stay within they specific area (roads). Otherwise it would be like charging your neighbor to pay your rent or mortgage.

[exit322]

If the tolls are used to pay for what is being taxed, then the toll is at least being used appropriately.  If a toll to use a road it being used to pay for railway projects, that's at the very least irresponsible.  Charge a fee on those projects to users that will make it feasible to pay for, or don't build them.

[Nexis4Jersey]

They do not in most of the NE , we can share with existing Freight lines , so that shouldn't be much of a Problem, and there will willing to share.

[Nexis4Jersey]

When there are options between legitimately being able to drive and taking the bus/rail/whatever, most people drive.  Public transit in this country (except in cities like New York and Chicago where there just isn't any way to drive for the most part) is for the more unsavory types.

The only way to get people to take public transit downtown in most cities would be to remove all of the highways and parking facilities.  I know that if I have the option, I'll drive.  And I want good roads to drive on.  Couldn't care less about high-speed rail that I'm still going to have to drive a long ways to get to a depot.

Well like i said the tides are turning here in the NE against more or wider roads and towards Rail and more PT , people want a more less stressful commute.  Southeastern PA , CT , RI , NJ , Maryland will see a massive PT network over the next 10 years, due to the fact that many freight lines are becoming abandoned and thus become easier to convert to Commuter or Light Rail , theres 2 lines in my county and dozens around my state that will do that.

[Brandon]

They do not in most of the NE , we can share with existing Freight lines , so that shouldn't be much of a Problem, and there will willing to share.

You obviously underestimate the amount of rail freight traffic in the US.  Almost every day here in Chicagoland, we hear of "freight train interference" for Metra commuters.  Some of the busiest lines have mile-long trains that come through at least every half hour or closer together.  Freight rail gets precidence over passenger rail on most lines outside the NE (and may even in the NE).  It is a major problem for high-speed passenger rail, Corey.  As far as I am concerned, high-speed rail on such lines is a pipe dream that goes nowhere.

[Nexis4Jersey]

We are double tracking or quad tracking systems that will share with Freight or we strike deals with them , so they can only run at night , and in the most extreme of cases the freight trains get pushed off the line and onto a lighter line.

[Brandon]

We are double tracking or quad tracking systems that will share with Freight or we strike deals with them , so they can only run at night , and in the most extreme of cases the freight trains get pushed off the line and onto a lighter line.

No dice.  Freight trains tend to run around the clock like I said.  And, they own the lines, thus freight gets the right-of-way.  Even Amtrak pays for the right to ride on privately owned rail lines.  In addition, adding tracks costs a lot of money (it's cheaper to add lanes by far), and getting the ROW for the tracks in this day and age is very expensive.  For someone who professes to promote transit, you have a lot to learn about trains and rail traffic.

[agentsteel53]

okay, burgeoning flame war deleted ... let's try this one again folks, with a tad more civility this time! 

[J N Winkler]

What exactly is meant by high-speed rail?  I have a hard time imagining that even fully grade-separated freight lines could seriously be regarded as upgradable to handle TGV-class services.

[Nexis4Jersey]

I think ICE network in Germany shares with Freight ,Freight Trains will one day be banned over severely restricted on the NEC, some other Amtrak owned Corridors as passenger ridership increases.  Outside the NE , i can't really say , things tend to take 3x longer.

[J N Winkler]

There's an awful lot of blue, and precious little red, here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ICE_Network.png

As far as I am concerned, if the blue lines are allowed to count as high-speed rail, then Britain already has high-speed rail north of London!  (HST sets have a top speed of 125 MPH.)  Meanwhile, France, Italy, and Spain operate their backbone high-speed lines at 300 km/h or better.

[Chris]

High speed rail is perfect for relatively flat an sparsely populated countrysides, like in France and Spain. The expense to acquire a ROW with the radii for high-speed rail is enormous, especially in the densely populated northeast. It wouldn't surprise me if getting a ROW for a 200 mph HSR is more expensive than the actual construction cost.

[Nexis4Jersey]

It would cost 10 billion $ To upgrade the NEC to at least 190mph average speeds , they are already doing track and wire replacement in some areas , but the bulk of the major upgrades hasn't happened yet , but should soon , as the network becomes more popular each week.

[Brandon]

I think ICE network in Germany shares with Freight ,Freight Trains will one day be banned over severely restricted on the NEC, some other Amtrak owned Corridors as passenger ridership increases.  Outside the NE , i can't really say , things tend to take 3x longer.

You're assuming a lot.  Remember, Amtrak does not own most (maybe 95-99%) of the tracks it uses.  The freight rail companies own it, and therefore, I highly doubt you'll see them banned from the NEC.  I also highly doubt you'll ever see European-type high-speed rail in most of the US.  The distances are too big, and the population density is too low.

[english si]

Yes, the UK has had 125mph High Speed Rail for decades - including on the diesel Great Western Main Line and Cross County Mail Line (only 125mph non-electrified lines in the world).

This has cripped plans for a HSL network in the UK - time savings aren't that good from it, as the 'classic' lines are quality enough. The line from the Channel Tunnel exists to bypass 90mph and slower lines, and the proposed line to Birmingham is about capacity, rather than speed.

For HSR to be an effective way of moving people, you need at least a train an hour. To make a purpose built line attempt to be cost effective you'd need to have most of the route running more trains, so you would need to serve several destinations, or have a heavy trafficked route that would need to have several trains an hour to justify it. Due to the distances, demand for, and geography of most of the proposed US networks, 125mph sharing with freight lines looks like it will be the way to go, at least initially.

[Nexis4Jersey]

You're assuming a lot.  Remember, Amtrak does not own most (maybe 95-99%) of the tracks it uses.  The freight rail companies own it, and therefore, I highly doubt you'll see them banned from the NEC.  I also highly doubt you'll ever see European-type high-speed rail in most of the US.  The distances are too big, and the population density is too low.

They do own the NEC , The New Haven-Springfield line , Keystone corridor, and alot people in the Rail community are saying Amtrak is planning to limit the freight activity on the NEC , becuz Freight make up the bulk of delays.  There are plans to start upgrading the Acelas with new things and upgrade the top speed form 150 to 180.  High Speed Rail can't work in the Southeast and some parts of Midwest.  But its a very good Alt to Widening highways and building more Runways.

[froggie]

Freight doesn't make up the bulk of delays along the NEC.  The bulk of delays are a combination of track condition (Amtrak has a *HUGE* maintenance backlog on the NEC), and two choke-points:  the tunnels under the Hudson and through Baltimore.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Well during busier times they do. All in all, the NEC is being upgraded, but it takes along time, unlike restoring the Lackawanna line or double tracking and electrifying the New Haven–Springfield corridor.  The NEC is a very busy line, and you can't really shut down one track, so its going take a long time to upgrade just one line. Although Amtrak takes a long time with everything, NJT and other agencies can do the same amount work in half the time.  All of the Interlocks need replacing to increase speeds and reduce delays while entering Baltimore and Philly. The New Haven Catenary needs replacing; in fact, all of the Catenary east and south of New Haven needs replacing, and the standard voltage required for High Speed Rail needs to be put in place. 

A new Amtrak Fleet is on the way over the next 10 years. They are looking at NJT for our New Dual Locos that will come here for the NEC line, Diesel - Electric.  The wooden ties need replacing; you need concrete ties for higher speeds. Luckily, 80% of the NEC and Spur corridors are doing that, or have done it already.  Do some more research before you tell me what is and isn't going to happen.

[Edited for readability. -S.]

[froggie]

Do some more research before you tell me what is and isn't going to happen.

This could easily be turned back on yourself...

[mightyace]

As mentioned before, since Amtrak owns the NEC plus a few other corridors, it can ban freight traffic on it or price it out of existence.

IIRC Conrail still ran electric powered freights in its early days, but Amtrak priced the electricity out of reach.  Hence, all freight trains today along the NEC run with Diesel.

And, as a few others have mentioned, the NEC is suffering from many years of inadequate maintenance.  A key question at this point is do we even upgrade the NEC for true high speed rail or build new right of way.  Not an easy question, as you have many sections of the NEC that are unsuited to high-speed rail as the tracks were built a century or more ago.  However, with building new tracks, you have similar NIMBY issues that you do with highways.  (see Somerset Freeway aka I-95 in New Jersey)

And, of course, the political process slows things down as well.  What one congress or legislature can allocate, the next can take it away.  And, this is not just a partisan issue either.  Before the Obama administration, all administrations since the formation of Amtrak whether Republican or Democratic haven't given Amtrak much more than survival funding.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Amtrak needs to go in the Northeast. A new system needs to form, just servicing the NEC, Keystone Corridor, and future corridors. Then the new system or agency can focus on these key corridors, instead of the whole country. 

As for new ROW, there is a partial plan, but that means upgrading and electrifying the Amtrak I-90 Corridor to Albany, then putting additional trains on the Empire Corridor down to NYC.  That would just be a band aid. You could also use a lot of abandoned freight lines west of the Hudson and south of Albany to rejoin with the NEC at Secaucus Junction. You can easily upgrade the Port Jervis / Main lines to high speed rail; there are only about 15 level crossings. The FRA max for a level crossing is 100 mph, but I do see that increasing slightly to 125 in rural or less dense areas. Another possible NEC bypass would be to use lightly used freight tracks that run along the I-81 Corridor between Baltimore and Harrisburg and tie those into the Keystone corridor.

In the long term plans for most cities, I've so far come up with this list for major rail connector or hub cities: Syracuse (2 lines and light Rail , North-South & East - West, Albany (East-West & North - South 2 lines, although its a bit fishy with the Montreal connection), Springfield, Mass (2 lines East - West & North - South , i haven't seen anything for light Rail yet), Harrisburg (possible 3 new corridors), Scranton ( 1 line North-South, possible Wyoming Valley Light Rail), New Brunswick, NJ (1 Light Rail line connecting the NEC & Raritan Valley lines, as well as future connections to the MOM network), Trenton, NJ (2 new Rail lines). In southeastern Pennsylvania, from what I read, 2 new agencies might form (2-7 new Rail lines).

~Corey

[Edited for readability. -S.]