New York

[STLmapboy]

I found some three-section bimodal-arrow FYA signals in Utica. Any more of these in NY?

[Sam]

I found some three-section bimodal-arrow FYA signals in Utica. Any more of these in NY?

I'm not always clear on the terminology, but if you mean a 3-section signal R/Y/FYA, yes. In Geneva, on 5 & 20 westbound at Castle St., the right turn signal is one of these. (GSV is too old to show it.)

[baugh17]

I found some three-section bimodal-arrow FYA signals in Utica. Any more of these in NY?

I'm not always clear on the terminology, but if you mean a 3-section signal R/Y/FYA, yes. In Geneva, on 5 & 20 westbound at Castle St., the right turn signal is one of these. (GSV is too old to show it.)

Transit Rd. (NY 78) at Tonawanda Creek Rd. in Millersport.  I want to say there are more out there besides the ones in/near Utica.

[dgolub]

The Palisades Parkway has its own brown leaf design with PALISADES/INTERSTATE/PARKWAY at the bottom. There's a modified version (https://goo.gl/maps/vDqJUZh59aAN237h9) with a smaller leaf and bigger Palisades/Interstate/Parkway text in mixed case.

This style is used for all the parkways inside Palisades Interstate Park.  Seven Lakes Drive and Lake Welch Drive have this type of signage as well.

[NYCDOT]

Random question-Does NYSDOT or the various regions decide where to construct the restaurant/gas/attraction signs?

[vdeane]

For what level of "where" are we talking about?  The logo signs are managed by the regional Real Estate offices, with businesses having to adhere to various requirements to have their logo on a sign (for example, a restaurant has to serve breakfast).  That said, as in all things, I'm sure there is statewide guidance of some kind.

[hotdogPi]

(for example, a restaurant has to serve breakfast)

Lunch/dinner only places can't be on logo signs?

[storm2k]

(for example, a restaurant has to serve breakfast)

Lunch/dinner only places can't be on logo signs?

The MUTCD has specific rules about what qualifies for a service sign on highways. For food signs:

To qualify for a FOOD logo sign panel, a business should have:
1. Licensing or approval, where required;
2. Continuous operations to serve at least two meals per day, at least 6 days per week;
3. Modern sanitary facilities; and
4. Public telephone.

Mind you, states may have additional rules that must be followed to be featured on signs in state.

[Alps]

The Palisades Parkway has its own brown leaf design with PALISADES/INTERSTATE/PARKWAY at the bottom. There's a modified version (https://goo.gl/maps/vDqJUZh59aAN237h9) with a smaller leaf and bigger Palisades/Interstate/Parkway text in mixed case.

This style is used for all the parkways inside Palisades Interstate Park.  Seven Lakes Drive and Lake Welch Drive have this type of signage as well.

Those and Tiorati. I've wondered if those are officially parkways or not.

[NYCDOT]

For what level of "where" are we talking about?  The logo signs are managed by the regional Real Estate offices, with businesses having to adhere to various requirements to have their logo on a sign (for example, a restaurant has to serve breakfast).  That said, as in all things, I'm sure there is statewide guidance of some kind.

That's very interesting, had no idea about a "breakfast" regulation. However, I feel like in R10 and R11 the logo signs are nowhere to be found. Instead, they're replace with a blue sign with generic icons for gas and food.

[storm2k]

The Palisades Parkway has its own brown leaf design with PALISADES/INTERSTATE/PARKWAY at the bottom. There's a modified version (https://goo.gl/maps/vDqJUZh59aAN237h9) with a smaller leaf and bigger Palisades/Interstate/Parkway text in mixed case.

This style is used for all the parkways inside Palisades Interstate Park.  Seven Lakes Drive and Lake Welch Drive have this type of signage as well.

Those and Tiorati. I've wondered if those are officially parkways or not.

So is the brown PIP shield a NYS Parks thing then? The GWB approaches sign the shield at the exits to 9W there, but not sure if that's NJTA or the Port Authority that signs it. NJDOT also seems to sign with the brown shield, but I don't remember seeing reassurance shields along the Parkway itself in the NJ section.

[kalvado]

For what level of "where" are we talking about?  The logo signs are managed by the regional Real Estate offices, with businesses having to adhere to various requirements to have their logo on a sign (for example, a restaurant has to serve breakfast).  That said, as in all things, I'm sure there is statewide guidance of some kind.

That's very interesting, had no idea about a "breakfast" regulation. However, I feel like in R10 and R11 the logo signs are nowhere to be found. Instead, they're replace with a blue sign with generic icons for gas and food.

there was a fairly interesting situation regarding one of Albany stores fighting for a spot on services sign. One of the things DOT was bringing up was that services signs are not used within urban areas as there are too many locations to list - and services are available basically in any direction.
If anything, R10 and R11 can use the same reasoning across their entire footprint.

[NYCDOT]

For what level of "where" are we talking about?  The logo signs are managed by the regional Real Estate offices, with businesses having to adhere to various requirements to have their logo on a sign (for example, a restaurant has to serve breakfast).  That said, as in all things, I'm sure there is statewide guidance of some kind.

That's very interesting, had no idea about a "breakfast" regulation. However, I feel like in R10 and R11 the logo signs are nowhere to be found. Instead, they're replace with a blue sign with generic icons for gas and food.

there was a fairly interesting situation regarding one of Albany stores fighting for a spot on services sign. One of the things DOT was bringing up was that services signs are not used within urban areas as there are too many locations to list - and services are available basically in any direction.
If anything, R10 and R11 can use the same reasoning across their entire footprint.

I see.

[Rothman]

The only recent debate in Albany I was aware of was an Arbor Hill business claiming racism or classism because the general service signs (not full branded logo signs) only had direction arrows pointing to US 9 north from I-90.  And, to be fair, sending people up US 9 north is kind if silly since you have to drive up through Loudonville to get to the commercial strip.

So, NYSDOT made the arrows bidirectional.  Case closed.

[vdeane]

And, to be fair, sending people up US 9 north is kind if silly since you have to drive up through Loudonville to get to the commercial strip.

Those arrows were pointing at Northern Boulevard.  The gas stations on US 9 north of Loudonville wouldn't even qualify.

[Rothman]

And, to be fair, sending people up US 9 north is kind if silly since you have to drive up through Loudonville to get to the commercial strip.

Those arrows were pointing at Northern Boulevard.  The gas stations on US 9 north of Loudonville wouldn't even qualify.

That just supports the complainant's argument.  Having to take US 9 and then turn off again is more complicated than just driving into Arbor Hill.

[kalvado]

The only recent debate in Albany I was aware of was an Arbor Hill business claiming racism or classism because the general service signs (not full branded logo signs) only had direction arrows pointing to US 9 north from I-90.  And, to be fair, sending people up US 9 north is kind if silly since you have to drive up through Loudonville to get to the commercial strip.

So, NYSDOT made the arrows bidirectional.  Case closed.

Not so fast.

Under federal guidelines, according to Breen [NYSDOT spokesperson], food signs are used to direct motorists only to rural areas.
"We expect that in urbanized areas, people will assume that there are food and services there," Breen said.

https://www.timesunion.com/business/article/Fork-in-the-road-not-on-the-sign-912035.php
Until NYSDOT PR people make up regulations and reasons on the fly (not that I would be surprised if that is the actual case), things were not that simple.

[Rothman]

The only recent debate in Albany I was aware of was an Arbor Hill business claiming racism or classism because the general service signs (not full branded logo signs) only had direction arrows pointing to US 9 north from I-90.  And, to be fair, sending people up US 9 north is kind if silly since you have to drive up through Loudonville to get to the commercial strip.

So, NYSDOT made the arrows bidirectional.  Case closed.

Not so fast.

Under federal guidelines, according to Breen [NYSDOT spokesperson], food signs are used to direct motorists only to rural areas.
"We expect that in urbanized areas, people will assume that there are food and services there," Breen said.

https://www.timesunion.com/business/article/Fork-in-the-road-not-on-the-sign-912035.php
Until NYSDOT PR people make up regulations and reasons on the fly (not that I would be surprised if that is the actual case), things were not that simple.

I don't believe there are logo signs on I-90 around US 9 (I could be mistaken).  There are general service signs and the solution was definitely just to update the arrows for them.

Case closed.

[vdeane]

And, to be fair, sending people up US 9 north is kind if silly since you have to drive up through Loudonville to get to the commercial strip.

Those arrows were pointing at Northern Boulevard.  The gas stations on US 9 north of Loudonville wouldn't even qualify.

That just supports the complainant's argument.  Having to take US 9 and then turn off again is more complicated than just driving into Arbor Hill.

Except you don't even get on US 9.  You're still on the ramp from I-90 when that split happens.  In fact, there is no access to Northern Boulevard from US 9 north (or access to US 9 south) at all!  It LOOKS like a diamond interchange, but it's really a pair of half-diamonds that meet at each other - one to US 9 north/from US 9 south, and one to/from I-90.  This side has a nice plaza and a few businesses.  On the south side, the only thing with a parking lot is a tiny Stewart's in a bad neighborhood.

[Rothman]

And, to be fair, sending people up US 9 north is kind if silly since you have to drive up through Loudonville to get to the commercial strip.

Those arrows were pointing at Northern Boulevard.  The gas stations on US 9 north of Loudonville wouldn't even qualify.

That just supports the complainant's argument.  Having to take US 9 and then turn off again is more complicated than just driving into Arbor Hill.

Except you don't even get on US 9.  You're still on the ramp from I-90 when that split happens.  In fact, there is no access to Northern Boulevard from US 9 north (or access to US 9 south) at all!  It LOOKS like a diamond interchange, but it's really a pair of half-diamonds that meet at each other - one to US 9 north/from US 9 south, and one to/from I-90.  This side has a nice plaza and a few businesses.  On the south side, the only thing with a parking lot is a tiny Stewart's in a bad neighborhood.

The complainant, I believe, owned one of the restaurants down through there.

[Mccojm]

I found some three-section bimodal-arrow FYA signals in Utica. Any more of these in NY?

There have been some in R10, it's not common though.

[mrsman]

Kalvado, have you ever contacted NYS DOT re: that signing situation on I-87 approaching the Thruway?

Local newspaper did. DOT responded with in-stock bullshit - compliant to regulations, no plans to modify.
That is one of very poorly designed local spots in  general, signage just makes it worse.
Upd. I missed the narrative, bottom line still the same
https://blog.timesunion.com/gettingthere/ramp-to-thruway-a-place-for-near-misses/1511/

This might be a case where even though the signing is technically correct, it does not convey the needed info in an intuitive form for the average driver and could be improved..............And just as I've often said about traffic signal installations, just because it meets minimum standards, that doesn't necessarily make it a good quality design.

Sorry to chime in a little late on this ....

One idea that I discussed with a friend of mine who is a professional traffic engineer with his own consulting company is the idea of peer review.  Essentially, engineers should take a business trip to an unfamiliar part of the country and drive the roads and try to figure out if everything makes sense.  So if you brought an engineer from Mississippi to drive the Northway and he were confronted with the setup to the Thruway, would he think it was intuitive?  Would he think that some more signage is necessary, especially as in almost anywhere you would normally keep left to stay on I-87.  Would he be able to recommend something appropriate?  (In all cases, likely yes).

Unfortunately, there don't seem to be plans to do something like this at all.

[lstone19]

One idea that I discussed with a friend of mine who is a professional traffic engineer with his own consulting company is the idea of peer review.  Essentially, engineers should take a business trip to an unfamiliar part of the country and drive the roads and try to figure out if everything makes sense.  So if you brought an engineer from Mississippi to drive the Northway and he were confronted with the setup to the Thruway, would he think it was intuitive?  Would he think that some more signage is necessary, especially as in almost anywhere you would normally keep left to stay on I-87.  Would he be able to recommend something appropriate?  (In all cases, likely yes).

Unfortunately, there don't seem to be plans to do something like this at all.

Exposure to other ideas and other ways of doing things should be a plus. Unfortunately, far too many people think of it as nothing of value and value longetivity with the "same old, same old". I am always amused when a local political candidate includes as one of the reasons they should be elected "life long resident of the community" which to me means "no exposure to other ideas and therefore nothing new to bring to the table."

Note the above is intended to be a generic comment and not particular to any current candidate in any race.

[Alps]

Kalvado, have you ever contacted NYS DOT re: that signing situation on I-87 approaching the Thruway?

Local newspaper did. DOT responded with in-stock bullshit - compliant to regulations, no plans to modify.
That is one of very poorly designed local spots in  general, signage just makes it worse.
Upd. I missed the narrative, bottom line still the same
https://blog.timesunion.com/gettingthere/ramp-to-thruway-a-place-for-near-misses/1511/

This might be a case where even though the signing is technically correct, it does not convey the needed info in an intuitive form for the average driver and could be improved..............And just as I've often said about traffic signal installations, just because it meets minimum standards, that doesn't necessarily make it a good quality design.

Sorry to chime in a little late on this ....

One idea that I discussed with a friend of mine who is a professional traffic engineer with his own consulting company is the idea of peer review.  Essentially, engineers should take a business trip to an unfamiliar part of the country and drive the roads and try to figure out if everything makes sense.  So if you brought an engineer from Mississippi to drive the Northway and he were confronted with the setup to the Thruway, would he think it was intuitive?  Would he think that some more signage is necessary, especially as in almost anywhere you would normally keep left to stay on I-87.  Would he be able to recommend something appropriate?  (In all cases, likely yes).

Unfortunately, there don't seem to be plans to do something like this at all.

Engineers should just visit other regions in NYS for starters.

[machias]

Kalvado, have you ever contacted NYS DOT re: that signing situation on I-87 approaching the Thruway?

Local newspaper did. DOT responded with in-stock bullshit - compliant to regulations, no plans to modify.
That is one of very poorly designed local spots in  general, signage just makes it worse.
Upd. I missed the narrative, bottom line still the same
https://blog.timesunion.com/gettingthere/ramp-to-thruway-a-place-for-near-misses/1511/

This might be a case where even though the signing is technically correct, it does not convey the needed info in an intuitive form for the average driver and could be improved..............And just as I've often said about traffic signal installations, just because it meets minimum standards, that doesn't necessarily make it a good quality design.

Sorry to chime in a little late on this ....

One idea that I discussed with a friend of mine who is a professional traffic engineer with his own consulting company is the idea of peer review.  Essentially, engineers should take a business trip to an unfamiliar part of the country and drive the roads and try to figure out if everything makes sense.  So if you brought an engineer from Mississippi to drive the Northway and he were confronted with the setup to the Thruway, would he think it was intuitive?  Would he think that some more signage is necessary, especially as in almost anywhere you would normally keep left to stay on I-87.  Would he be able to recommend something appropriate?  (In all cases, likely yes).

Unfortunately, there don't seem to be plans to do something like this at all.

Engineers should just visit other regions in NYS for starters.

It was my understanding that NYSDOT had conferences of some sort in the different regions, bringing all of whatever level of management or whatever NYSDOT together in Utica or Buffalo or Albany, depending on the quarter or year. I can't help but think when a traffic engineer goes to Utica they can't help but notice the weirdness with To Region 2's signing practices