Philadelphia

[Tonytone]

Phillys traffic lights are out of sync & its gonna take a long time to fix it.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inquirer.com/transportation/philadelphia-traffic-light-congestion-technology-20190731.html%3foutputType=amp?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Yikes, some of those photos.

Its crazy aint it. The most bizarre thing is the fact they cant stop the Peco lines from catching fire & killing the wires for the traffic signals to sync to the system.


iPhone

[Alps]

Phillys traffic lights are out of sync & its gonna take a long time to fix it.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inquirer.com/transportation/philadelphia-traffic-light-congestion-technology-20190731.html%3foutputType=amp?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Yikes, some of those photos.

Its crazy aint it. The most bizarre thing is the fact they cant stop the Peco lines from catching fire & killing the wires for the traffic signals to sync to the system.

They've gotta start synching above ground then. Not cheap, but doable with various technologies.

[storm2k]

Phillys traffic lights are out of sync & its gonna take a long time to fix it.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inquirer.com/transportation/philadelphia-traffic-light-congestion-technology-20190731.html%3foutputType=amp?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Yikes, some of those photos.

Its crazy aint it. The most bizarre thing is the fact they cant stop the Peco lines from catching fire & killing the wires for the traffic signals to sync to the system.

They've gotta start synching above ground then. Not cheap, but doable with various technologies.

Didn't NJDOT utilize some sort of wireless RF sync tech for at least part of the project to sync all the lights on 22 from Green Brook to Mountainside? I know in the part that goes thru the reservation in Mountainside, there are these antennas which I believe are used to communicate up and down the system. Maybe they adopt something like this?

[jeffandnicole]

Phillys traffic lights are out of sync & its gonna take a long time to fix it.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inquirer.com/transportation/philadelphia-traffic-light-congestion-technology-20190731.html%3foutputType=amp?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Yikes, some of those photos.

Its crazy aint it. The most bizarre thing is the fact they cant stop the Peco lines from catching fire & killing the wires for the traffic signals to sync to the system.

They've gotta start synching above ground then. Not cheap, but doable with various technologies.

Didn't NJDOT utilize some sort of wireless RF sync tech for at least part of the project to sync all the lights on 22 from Green Brook to Mountainside? I know in the part that goes thru the reservation in Mountainside, there are these antennas which I believe are used to communicate up and down the system. Maybe they adopt something like this?

There's a difference between syncing the lights and using an adaptive control system.  That picture is of adaptive controls.  For NJ, they utilize a doppler radar system to determine when to change the lights.  A perfect line-of-sight needs to be available between controllers (see my last paragraph how this ties into Philly's issue).  However, the system isn't issue-proof.  The equipment sometimes fails.  In that pic, which shows a line-of-sight control between two traffic lights, the pole is 4 feet from the shoulder.  If a car hits it and the pole goes down, it'll prevent the system from working properly. 

Philly wants to use syncing technology to keep the lights changing at a set time.  It was clearly seen on Broad Street when it did work - the first 2 lights would be green, then next two red, the next two green, the next two red, etc.  If you at the first of the two identical lights, when your light turned green you would go, get thru the next green light, and by the time you approached that first red light it should be cycling to a green light.  You go thru that green light, go thru the next green light, then as you approached the next red light that would be cycling to a green, and so on.  What this created was a 25 mph flow for the most part - if you went about 25 mph, you would conceivably go from light to light without slowing down.  In reality, traffic sped up to 30 or 35 then get stopped at the next red light, then when it turned green they would get thru the next green, then hit another red.  In theory the system would work...as long as you went the speed limit (which most people didn't do).  It takes a keen eye to see how that operates.

Underground fires in old cities aren't unusual - there is very old wiring down there, and combined with critters that like to chew on things and don't understand how electricity works, fires happen.  An above ground system would avoid some of that.  However, in a city like Philly, there are numerous trees in the sidewalk that would interrupt a line-of-sight system as mentioned above.  So that system may not work well either!

[Tonytone]

Phillys traffic lights are out of sync & its gonna take a long time to fix it.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inquirer.com/transportation/philadelphia-traffic-light-congestion-technology-20190731.html%3foutputType=amp?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Yikes, some of those photos.

Its crazy aint it. The most bizarre thing is the fact they cant stop the Peco lines from catching fire & killing the wires for the traffic signals to sync to the system.

They've gotta start synching above ground then. Not cheap, but doable with various technologies.

Didn't NJDOT utilize some sort of wireless RF sync tech for at least part of the project to sync all the lights on 22 from Green Brook to Mountainside? I know in the part that goes thru the reservation in Mountainside, there are these antennas which I believe are used to communicate up and down the system. Maybe they adopt something like this?

There's a difference between syncing the lights and using an adaptive control system.  That picture is of adaptive controls.  For NJ, they utilize a doppler radar system to determine when to change the lights.  A perfect line-of-sight needs to be available between controllers (see my last paragraph how this ties into Philly's issue).  However, the system isn't issue-proof.  The equipment sometimes fails.  In that pic, which shows a line-of-sight control between two traffic lights, the pole is 4 feet from the shoulder.  If a car hits it and the pole goes down, it'll prevent the system from working properly. 

Philly wants to use syncing technology to keep the lights changing at a set time.  It was clearly seen on Broad Street when it did work - the first 2 lights would be green, then next two red, the next two green, the next two red, etc.  If you at the first of the two identical lights, when your light turned green you would go, get thru the next green light, and by the time you approached that first red light it should be cycling to a green light.  You go thru that green light, go thru the next green light, then as you approached the next red light that would be cycling to a green, and so on.  What this created was a 25 mph flow for the most part - if you went about 25 mph, you would conceivably go from light to light without slowing down.  In reality, traffic sped up to 30 or 35 then get stopped at the next red light, then when it turned green they would get thru the next green, then hit another red.  In theory the system would work...as long as you went the speed limit (which most people didn't do).  It takes a keen eye to see how that operates.

Underground fires in old cities aren't unusual - there is very old wiring down there, and combined with critters that like to chew on things and don't understand how electricity works, fires happen.  An above ground system would avoid some of that.  However, in a city like Philly, there are numerous trees in the sidewalk that would interrupt a line-of-sight system as mentioned above.  So that system may not work well either!

So in this situation. What would be the best fix. Digging up the street to replace the traffic signal lines? Or putting the camera sensors ontop of every traffic signal in Philly. The ones that are seen in some parts of phily, but mostly in MD.


iPhone

[jeffandnicole]

Phillys traffic lights are out of sync & its gonna take a long time to fix it.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inquirer.com/transportation/philadelphia-traffic-light-congestion-technology-20190731.html%3foutputType=amp?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Yikes, some of those photos.

Its crazy aint it. The most bizarre thing is the fact they cant stop the Peco lines from catching fire & killing the wires for the traffic signals to sync to the system.

They've gotta start synching above ground then. Not cheap, but doable with various technologies.

Didn't NJDOT utilize some sort of wireless RF sync tech for at least part of the project to sync all the lights on 22 from Green Brook to Mountainside? I know in the part that goes thru the reservation in Mountainside, there are these antennas which I believe are used to communicate up and down the system. Maybe they adopt something like this?

There's a difference between syncing the lights and using an adaptive control system.  That picture is of adaptive controls.  For NJ, they utilize a doppler radar system to determine when to change the lights.  A perfect line-of-sight needs to be available between controllers (see my last paragraph how this ties into Philly's issue).  However, the system isn't issue-proof.  The equipment sometimes fails.  In that pic, which shows a line-of-sight control between two traffic lights, the pole is 4 feet from the shoulder.  If a car hits it and the pole goes down, it'll prevent the system from working properly. 

Philly wants to use syncing technology to keep the lights changing at a set time.  It was clearly seen on Broad Street when it did work - the first 2 lights would be green, then next two red, the next two green, the next two red, etc.  If you at the first of the two identical lights, when your light turned green you would go, get thru the next green light, and by the time you approached that first red light it should be cycling to a green light.  You go thru that green light, go thru the next green light, then as you approached the next red light that would be cycling to a green, and so on.  What this created was a 25 mph flow for the most part - if you went about 25 mph, you would conceivably go from light to light without slowing down.  In reality, traffic sped up to 30 or 35 then get stopped at the next red light, then when it turned green they would get thru the next green, then hit another red.  In theory the system would work...as long as you went the speed limit (which most people didn't do).  It takes a keen eye to see how that operates.

Underground fires in old cities aren't unusual - there is very old wiring down there, and combined with critters that like to chew on things and don't understand how electricity works, fires happen.  An above ground system would avoid some of that.  However, in a city like Philly, there are numerous trees in the sidewalk that would interrupt a line-of-sight system as mentioned above.  So that system may not work well either!

So in this situation. What would be the best fix. Digging up the street to replace the traffic signal lines? Or putting the camera sensors ontop of every traffic signal in Philly. The ones that are seen in some parts of phily, but mostly in MD.


iPhone

The streets don't usually need to be dug up - there's conduit within the streets to feed the wires thru.  Or in Broad Street's case, they could even go thru the subway tunnels and up at each intersection!

But, while that seems easy, there's always this one bothersome issue to contend with: Money.  It takes a lot of money to wire miles of roadway.  And it's not just wiring - people have to be paid for the work.  The manholes are often in the middle of the roadway, so you have to close lanes to get to the manholes.  You have to have the proper computer equipment in place at the main office.  And so forth...  If you were to pull a bid package, the number of line items that bidders bid on is insane.  And that's just to put something in place - that doesn't even include ongoing maintenance!

As far as those sensors go - that's usually reserved for on-demand intersections, not fixed-time intersections which are used in the city. 

[Tonytone]

Phillys traffic lights are out of sync & its gonna take a long time to fix it.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inquirer.com/transportation/philadelphia-traffic-light-congestion-technology-20190731.html%3foutputType=amp?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Yikes, some of those photos.

Its crazy aint it. The most bizarre thing is the fact they cant stop the Peco lines from catching fire & killing the wires for the traffic signals to sync to the system.

They've gotta start synching above ground then. Not cheap, but doable with various technologies.

Didn't NJDOT utilize some sort of wireless RF sync tech for at least part of the project to sync all the lights on 22 from Green Brook to Mountainside? I know in the part that goes thru the reservation in Mountainside, there are these antennas which I believe are used to communicate up and down the system. Maybe they adopt something like this?

There's a difference between syncing the lights and using an adaptive control system.  That picture is of adaptive controls.  For NJ, they utilize a doppler radar system to determine when to change the lights.  A perfect line-of-sight needs to be available between controllers (see my last paragraph how this ties into Philly's issue).  However, the system isn't issue-proof.  The equipment sometimes fails.  In that pic, which shows a line-of-sight control between two traffic lights, the pole is 4 feet from the shoulder.  If a car hits it and the pole goes down, it'll prevent the system from working properly. 

Philly wants to use syncing technology to keep the lights changing at a set time.  It was clearly seen on Broad Street when it did work - the first 2 lights would be green, then next two red, the next two green, the next two red, etc.  If you at the first of the two identical lights, when your light turned green you would go, get thru the next green light, and by the time you approached that first red light it should be cycling to a green light.  You go thru that green light, go thru the next green light, then as you approached the next red light that would be cycling to a green, and so on.  What this created was a 25 mph flow for the most part - if you went about 25 mph, you would conceivably go from light to light without slowing down.  In reality, traffic sped up to 30 or 35 then get stopped at the next red light, then when it turned green they would get thru the next green, then hit another red.  In theory the system would work...as long as you went the speed limit (which most people didn't do).  It takes a keen eye to see how that operates.

Underground fires in old cities aren't unusual - there is very old wiring down there, and combined with critters that like to chew on things and don't understand how electricity works, fires happen.  An above ground system would avoid some of that.  However, in a city like Philly, there are numerous trees in the sidewalk that would interrupt a line-of-sight system as mentioned above.  So that system may not work well either!

So in this situation. What would be the best fix. Digging up the street to replace the traffic signal lines? Or putting the camera sensors ontop of every traffic signal in Philly. The ones that are seen in some parts of phily, but mostly in MD.


iPhone

The streets don't usually need to be dug up - there's conduit within the streets to feed the wires thru.  Or in Broad Street's case, they could even go thru the subway tunnels and up at each intersection!

But, while that seems easy, there's always this one bothersome issue to contend with: Money.  It takes a lot of money to wire miles of roadway.  And it's not just wiring - people have to be paid for the work.  The manholes are often in the middle of the roadway, so you have to close lanes to get to the manholes.  You have to have the proper computer equipment in place at the main office.  And so forth...  If you were to pull a bid package, the number of line items that bidders bid on is insane.  And that's just to put something in place - that doesn't even include ongoing maintenance!

As far as those sensors go - that's usually reserved for on-demand intersections, not fixed-time intersections which are used in the city.

–––
"The fiber optics that link the traffic signals to the central control system are vulnerable to small fires that can break out on the PECO power lines that run alongside them. A single fiber optic cable can be the lifeline that links an entire neighborhood in the city to the central control system, and when it burn outs, there are no backup connections. This is particularly a problem in Center City, officials said, where Philadelphia's traffic problems are most acute."  


"There's not enough redundancy in Center City,"  Callahan said. "It's a problem with the fiber optic network."
It's costly and time consuming to replace the cables. In summer 2018, a PECO manhole fire on Juniper Street burned the fiber optic cables that allowed remote control of every traffic light in Center City between Market and South Streets, except for signals on Chestnut Street. Workers will have to dig up the street to get at the burned fiber optics. Those signals likely won't be reconnected until the end of the year. In the meantime, the city has to go back to manually retiming them."
–––-

So im not sure if they have to dig up all the streets to replace the lines, but according to this article, they have too. So an above ground solution may be the best for philly, because according to this map...



Thats a lot of streets to dig up & also switching the city to sensors instead of timed intersections will do the city better IMO. Since half the time most intersections are empty at the crossing side while the other side has cars just sitting at a red light wasting time & energy.



& sorry about the screenshots I post they have been bad quality lately no idea why?!





iPhone

[odditude]

The streets don't usually need to be dug up - there's conduit within the streets to feed the wires thru.

a not-uncommon issue is when the conduit itself is damaged by the fire and requires repair/replacement. while the conduit damage might not affect cables within that weren't damaged by the initial event, it can prevent new cable from being pulled.

another issue lies with access - in some cases in Center City, access to certain manholes/vaults requires entry through private property. if that property was also damaged in the event, PECO can be stuck waiting for the property owner to make the entrance safe to access before they can even begin damage assessment (let alone repairs).

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

One county west of Philadelphia...
https://www.delcotimes.com/news/local/problem-middletown-intersection-targeted-for-improvement/article_e835681a-0578-11ea-9eb9-7baa696b051f.html?fbclid=IwAR2Gg_x6g3c_gPzRdJQBMoQOa5gvbQA-79wkRBcjPntb6n7EiJWFM4WZrx4

[Tonytone]

Will this solve the deadly BLVD? Maybe, maybe not. But I know one thing that will, bring on the BLVD SUBWAY SEPTA.

https://www.reddit.com/r/philadelphia/comments/dx096r/a_nycinspired_traffic_hack_is_coming_to_phillys/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

[PHLBOS]

But I know one thing that will, bring on the BLVD SUBWAY SEPTA.

IIRC, such (extending the Market-Frankford Line beyond the Frankford Terminal to and along Roosevelt Blvd.) has been talked about since at least the 1970s.  Such was a pipedream then and it's even more of a pipedream now.

Even if such were constructed; I'm not 100% sure that alone would make the Blvd. safer.  Not everybody's going to abandon their cars to take the El.  Some will, but many will not for whatever reason. 

IMHO, and this is fantasy, what really should happen is to lower the inner drives and make such an expressway and have the outer drives (with overpasses crossing over the inner drives) function as both a boulevard & transit-way.

[Chris19001]

But I know one thing that will, bring on the BLVD SUBWAY SEPTA.

IIRC, such (extending the Market-Frankford Line beyond the Frankford Terminal to and along Roosevelt Blvd.) has been talked about since at least the 1970s.  Such was a pipedream then and it's even more of a pipedream now.

Even if such were constructed; I'm not 100% sure that alone would make the Blvd. safer.  Not everybody's going to abandon their cars to take the El.  Some will, but many will not for whatever reason. 

IMHO, and this is fantasy, what really should happen is to lower the inner drives and make such an expressway and have the outer drives (with overpasses crossing over the inner drives) function as both a boulevard & transit-way.

As you probably know, the combo expressway subway inner lanes was studied repeatedly by the city with their long-range plans.  Last time I heard (late '00's) it was closing in on $4B for the gold plated option, which included extending the MFL to join the branched BSL line up the boulevard.  With the astronomical cost also came an extremely high daily ridership estimate.  It had the potential to be transformative if tied into land-use policies around the proposed stations. Alas, the only thing the city could afford was the study, so it will sit on the shelf until the next time a long-range study for the same situation is ordered up.  I agree though, it needs to sink the inner lanes into a trench to operate as a freeway alongside the subway.  You'd have a bottleneck eastbound at Broad though...

https://whyy.org/articles/roosevelt-boulevard-heavy-rail-too-expensive-study-looks-at-other-options/

[jeffandnicole]

But I know one thing that will, bring on the BLVD SUBWAY SEPTA.

IIRC, such (extending the Market-Frankford Line beyond the Frankford Terminal to and along Roosevelt Blvd.) has been talked about since at least the 1970s.  Such was a pipedream then and it's even more of a pipedream now.

Even if such were constructed; I'm not 100% sure that alone would make the Blvd. safer.  Not everybody's going to abandon their cars to take the El.  Some will, but many will not for whatever reason. 

IMHO, and this is fantasy, what really should happen is to lower the inner drives and make such an expressway and have the outer drives (with overpasses crossing over the inner drives) function as both a boulevard & transit-way.

As you probably know, the combo expressway subway inner lanes was studied repeatedly by the city with their long-range plans.  Last time I heard (late '00's) it was closing in on $4B for the gold plated option, which included extending the MFL to join the branched BSL line up the boulevard.  With the astronomical cost also came an extremely high daily ridership estimate.  It had the potential to be transformative if tied into land-use policies around the proposed stations. Alas, the only thing the city could afford was the study, so it will sit on the shelf until the next time a long-range study for the same situation is ordered up.  I agree though, it needs to sink the inner lanes into a trench to operate as a freeway alongside the subway.  You'd have a bottleneck eastbound at Broad though...

https://whyy.org/articles/roosevelt-boulevard-heavy-rail-too-expensive-study-looks-at-other-options/

I wished they would just extend the southern end of the Broad Street Subway line into the South Philly Naval Yard.  Pretty much a straight shot and relatively easily doable under existing roadways.

[Tonytone]

But I know one thing that will, bring on the BLVD SUBWAY SEPTA.

IIRC, such (extending the Market-Frankford Line beyond the Frankford Terminal to and along Roosevelt Blvd.) has been talked about since at least the 1970s.  Such was a pipedream then and it's even more of a pipedream now.

Even if such were constructed; I'm not 100% sure that alone would make the Blvd. safer.  Not everybody's going to abandon their cars to take the El.  Some will, but many will not for whatever reason. 

IMHO, and this is fantasy, what really should happen is to lower the inner drives and make such an expressway and have the outer drives (with overpasses crossing over the inner drives) function as both a boulevard & transit-way.

As you probably know, the combo expressway subway inner lanes was studied repeatedly by the city with their long-range plans.  Last time I heard (late '00's) it was closing in on $4B for the gold plated option, which included extending the MFL to join the branched BSL line up the boulevard.  With the astronomical cost also came an extremely high daily ridership estimate.  It had the potential to be transformative if tied into land-use policies around the proposed stations. Alas, the only thing the city could afford was the study, so it will sit on the shelf until the next time a long-range study for the same situation is ordered up.  I agree though, it needs to sink the inner lanes into a trench to operate as a freeway alongside the subway.  You'd have a bottleneck eastbound at Broad though...

https://whyy.org/articles/roosevelt-boulevard-heavy-rail-too-expensive-study-looks-at-other-options/

That article is hilarious. "Building heavy rail is so entrenched in peoples minds" . DUHH its en trenched in peoples minds, we're in a city!? I could see if it was a suburban area, then a subway would be a crazy idea, but we're in an area where the subway is literally a couple blocks back. You have this 12 lane road that is crazy as hell to cross, drive on or live near. & you guys have been pushing this subway off for so long by the time its gonna be time to do something flying cars will be invented. For a city of Philly's size they sure do act like northeast is not apart of philly, shit philly is almost damn near the size of NY if you include all the area of the city from South Philly to Northeast, where it almost touches NYC.


& I've been reading about the sunken middle lanes alot. That would also be a good bypass of 76. Maybe even easing the traffic on both roads, now throw a bus lane on the BLVD & a subway! You got population growth taken care of for 50+ years & also multiple ways to get around. This would solve the norths traffic problem.


iPhone

[Tonytone]

But I know one thing that will, bring on the BLVD SUBWAY SEPTA.

IIRC, such (extending the Market-Frankford Line beyond the Frankford Terminal to and along Roosevelt Blvd.) has been talked about since at least the 1970s.  Such was a pipedream then and it's even more of a pipedream now.

Even if such were constructed; I'm not 100% sure that alone would make the Blvd. safer.  Not everybody's going to abandon their cars to take the El.  Some will, but many will not for whatever reason. 

IMHO, and this is fantasy, what really should happen is to lower the inner drives and make such an expressway and have the outer drives (with overpasses crossing over the inner drives) function as both a boulevard & transit-way.

As you probably know, the combo expressway subway inner lanes was studied repeatedly by the city with their long-range plans.  Last time I heard (late '00's) it was closing in on $4B for the gold plated option, which included extending the MFL to join the branched BSL line up the boulevard.  With the astronomical cost also came an extremely high daily ridership estimate.  It had the potential to be transformative if tied into land-use policies around the proposed stations. Alas, the only thing the city could afford was the study, so it will sit on the shelf until the next time a long-range study for the same situation is ordered up.  I agree though, it needs to sink the inner lanes into a trench to operate as a freeway alongside the subway.  You'd have a bottleneck eastbound at Broad though...

https://whyy.org/articles/roosevelt-boulevard-heavy-rail-too-expensive-study-looks-at-other-options/

I wished they would just extend the southern end of the Broad Street Subway line into the South Philly Naval Yard.  Pretty much a straight shot and relatively easily doable under existing roadways.

But jeff they are! Let me find the plans for you


https://www.google.com/amp/s/philly.curbed.com/platform/amp/2017/9/18/16227724/philadelphia-top-transportation-infrastructure-projects

iPhone

[jeffandnicole]

But I know one thing that will, bring on the BLVD SUBWAY SEPTA.

IIRC, such (extending the Market-Frankford Line beyond the Frankford Terminal to and along Roosevelt Blvd.) has been talked about since at least the 1970s.  Such was a pipedream then and it's even more of a pipedream now.

Even if such were constructed; I'm not 100% sure that alone would make the Blvd. safer.  Not everybody's going to abandon their cars to take the El.  Some will, but many will not for whatever reason. 

IMHO, and this is fantasy, what really should happen is to lower the inner drives and make such an expressway and have the outer drives (with overpasses crossing over the inner drives) function as both a boulevard & transit-way.

As you probably know, the combo expressway subway inner lanes was studied repeatedly by the city with their long-range plans.  Last time I heard (late '00's) it was closing in on $4B for the gold plated option, which included extending the MFL to join the branched BSL line up the boulevard.  With the astronomical cost also came an extremely high daily ridership estimate.  It had the potential to be transformative if tied into land-use policies around the proposed stations. Alas, the only thing the city could afford was the study, so it will sit on the shelf until the next time a long-range study for the same situation is ordered up.  I agree though, it needs to sink the inner lanes into a trench to operate as a freeway alongside the subway.  You'd have a bottleneck eastbound at Broad though...

https://whyy.org/articles/roosevelt-boulevard-heavy-rail-too-expensive-study-looks-at-other-options/

I wished they would just extend the southern end of the Broad Street Subway line into the South Philly Naval Yard.  Pretty much a straight shot and relatively easily doable under existing roadways.

But jeff they are! Let me find the plans for you


https://www.google.com/amp/s/philly.curbed.com/platform/amp/2017/9/18/16227724/philadelphia-top-transportation-infrastructure-projects

iPhone

Slow down.

From that article...

Here, we highlight six transportation projects that all have potential to be game-changers for this city and its 1.5 million residents.

That could change eventually, with a feasibility study underway to extend the Broad Street subway line from the final stop at the stadiums to the Navy Yard.

I've seen the studies and the route proposals.  I also know that SEPTA doesn't have the hundreds of millions layout around to do the extension.  Anything reviewed so far are just ideas, with 3 main subway options being considered.  Shuttle buses are being looked at as well.

BTW, here's the study: http://www.septa.org/notice/pdf/2019-BSL-Extension-Study.pdf

[Tonytone]

But I know one thing that will, bring on the BLVD SUBWAY SEPTA.

IIRC, such (extending the Market-Frankford Line beyond the Frankford Terminal to and along Roosevelt Blvd.) has been talked about since at least the 1970s.  Such was a pipedream then and it's even more of a pipedream now.

Even if such were constructed; I'm not 100% sure that alone would make the Blvd. safer.  Not everybody's going to abandon their cars to take the El.  Some will, but many will not for whatever reason. 

IMHO, and this is fantasy, what really should happen is to lower the inner drives and make such an expressway and have the outer drives (with overpasses crossing over the inner drives) function as both a boulevard & transit-way.

As you probably know, the combo expressway subway inner lanes was studied repeatedly by the city with their long-range plans.  Last time I heard (late '00's) it was closing in on $4B for the gold plated option, which included extending the MFL to join the branched BSL line up the boulevard.  With the astronomical cost also came an extremely high daily ridership estimate.  It had the potential to be transformative if tied into land-use policies around the proposed stations. Alas, the only thing the city could afford was the study, so it will sit on the shelf until the next time a long-range study for the same situation is ordered up.  I agree though, it needs to sink the inner lanes into a trench to operate as a freeway alongside the subway.  You'd have a bottleneck eastbound at Broad though...

https://whyy.org/articles/roosevelt-boulevard-heavy-rail-too-expensive-study-looks-at-other-options/

I wished they would just extend the southern end of the Broad Street Subway line into the South Philly Naval Yard.  Pretty much a straight shot and relatively easily doable under existing roadways.

But jeff they are! Let me find the plans for you


https://www.google.com/amp/s/philly.curbed.com/platform/amp/2017/9/18/16227724/philadelphia-top-transportation-infrastructure-projects

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Slow down.

From that article...

Here, we highlight six transportation projects that all have potential to be game-changers for this city and its 1.5 million residents.

That could change eventually, with a feasibility study underway to extend the Broad Street subway line from the final stop at the stadiums to the Navy Yard.

I've seen the studies and the route proposals.  I also know that SEPTA doesn't have the hundreds of millions layout around to do the extension.  Anything reviewed so far are just ideas, with 3 main subway options being considered.  Shuttle buses are being looked at as well.

BTW, here's the study: http://www.septa.org/notice/pdf/2019-BSL-Extension-Study.pdf

Sorry about that, I dont know how I missed that. I got excited lmao.

But PENNDOT should seriously do the subway option. Not because its a city & I love subways, but because the Navy Yard is a nice area & they plan to grow it more & build housing. Shuttle busses are the cheap option. But making the area only accessible to vehicles will kill it with traffic. I go thru the area daily & I notice lots of cars, no one on a bike, & etc. this area will not be city friendly. Also if anything they could atleast try a trolley line on it own ROW if the subway is to expensive.

This area will just become another area infested with cars & traffic.


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[PHLBOS]

But PENNDOT SEPTA should seriously do the subway option.

FTFY.

[Tonytone]

But PENNDOT SEPTA should seriously do the subway option.

FTFY.

Ahh yes. Thank you. This is also a Septa Project.


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[PHLBOS]

Not sure whether this should be a separate topic or not; but since it pertains to Philly, I'll post it here.

Red-Light Cameras Along Roosevelt Boulevard Intersection Still Operational Despite Safety Concerns From 2017 Study

A study by the Pennsylvania Transportation Advisory Committee published in 2017 and obtained by Eyewitness News, analyzed crash data from five years before and five years after red-light cameras were implemented at three intersections along Roosevelt Boulevard in 2005.

The report found that injuries in all crashes are actually higher after red-light cameras were implemented at Roosevelt Boulevard and Red Lion Road, showing injuries there increased from 73 to 125, a 71% increase.

According to the report, the result suggests that red-light cameras are "not the solution to this intersection's safety challenges and that other measures are required."

But Eyewitness News discovered the cameras are still operational.

When asked why, PennDOT officials said they believe all previously approved red-light cameras should remain.

"There's no clear offsetting benefit to removing them, and the concern is that without the threat of enforcement, red-light-running behavior could even increase, which is a risk that we can't afford to take,"  said PennDOT spokesperson Alexis Campbell.

The 2017 report suggests most injuries from the Roosevelt and Red Lion Road tend to be rear-end crashes as opposed to angle crashes from red-light running that can cause more serious injury.

But the report also uses the intersection to highlight the need to select red-light camera intersections "carefully to maximize the likelihood of yielding safety benefits."

...

But in Philadelphia, city leaders insist the cameras are here to stay and, despite the 2017 report, are all properly working.

"The city's policy is to prioritize human life when addressing traffic safety and so there are no plans to remove the cameras or discontinue this statewide program,"  Kelly Cofrancisco, the city's communications director, said.

...

Last year alone, Philadelphia's red-light cameras netted $14.9 million. Officials say that's additional money for safer roads. But others claim it's a city cash grab.

The National Motorists Association is a lobbying group that opposes red-light cameras.

"It really is a taxation by citation scheme perpetrated by the city to make money,"  said Shelia Dunn with the NMA.

"I wish we didn't make a single dollar. I wish we lost money. That would make me happy,"  said Scott Petri, the executive director of the Philadelphia Parking Authority.

To date, 138 red-light cameras have been placed at 31 intersections across Philadelphia, and have captured 226,000 red-light runners in Fiscal Year 2019.

More money is expected to pour in this year after speed cameras become operational along the Roosevelt in the coming months.

[jeffandnicole]

Last year alone, Philadelphia's red-light cameras netted $14.9 million. Officials say that's additional money for safer roads. But others claim it's a city cash grab.

In addition to this being reported 2 years too late, the reporter should've seized upon what the officials mentioned above.  It should be money for a safer INTERSECTION.  Getting $15 million from that intersection to use it on roads elsewhere in the city is the exact definition of a money grab.

[Beltway]

Last year alone, Philadelphia's red-light cameras netted $14.9 million. Officials say that's additional money for safer roads. But others claim it's a city cash grab.

In addition to this being reported 2 years too late, the reporter should've seized upon what the officials mentioned above.  It should be money for a safer INTERSECTION.  Getting $15 million from that intersection to use it on roads elsewhere in the city is the exact definition of a money grab.

The article said that the $15 million came from 31 intersections across Philadelphia, that captured 226,000 red-light runners in Fiscal Year 2019.

That averages to $66 per ticket.

These camera systems are high-tech systems and cost in the realm of $500 thousand to $1 million apiece, and don't last for more than a few years before needing replacement.  In addition to the legal problems with these red-light cameras, they probably don't even produce much net revenue.

[Tonytone]

Work zone speed cameras are bow being added through I-95 in Philly. The VMS states it from the Delaware/PA line.


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[MASTERNC]

Work zone speed cameras are bow being added through I-95 in Philly. The VMS states it from the Delaware/PA line.


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The VMS messages are misleading (they were running them all over the state, including where there are currently no cameras).  What is happening is work zone cameras will start issuing tickets today (March 9).  They will not be in all work zones and will only be there when workers are present.  I-95 currently does not have any listed camera sites on the program website, but they could add one in the future as the program ramps up for construction season.

[Tonytone]

Work zone speed cameras are bow being added through I-95 in Philly. The VMS states it from the Delaware/PA line.


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The VMS messages are misleading (they were running them all over the state, including where there are currently no cameras).  What is happening is work zone cameras will start issuing tickets today (March 9).  They will not be in all work zones and will only be there when workers are present.  I-95 currently does not have any listed camera sites on the program website, but they could add one in the future as the program ramps up for construction season.

Oh wow, I was wondering where the cameras were set up. I thought they were gonna do photos from the "sky"  or something.


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