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Contradictory signs

Started by Zeffy, December 17, 2015, 09:48:40 PM

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PHLBOS

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2021, 02:53:09 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 10, 2021, 02:52:03 PM
Based on personal experience, you can be ticketed for advisory speeds in Massachusetts.

You can be ticketed for all sorts of things.  Doesn't make it illegal to do what you did.

Did you try to fight the ticket?
I can't answer for him, but the below is a true story:

Back in the Fast-Lane days when the then-Massachusetts Turnpike Authority posted 15 MPH speed advisory signs at the Mass Pike (I-90) toll booths instead of the standard SPEED LIMIT 15 signs, one motorist indeed got pulled over by the State Police & was ticketed for speeding through the booths; however, the motorist just happened to be a highway sign contractor who knew the MUTCD cover-to-cover. 

Given the type of sign used, he challenged the ticket in court & won (ticket dismissed) on the MUTCD grounds that a speed advisory panel is not the same as a speed limit sign.  Needless to say, the State Trooper who cited the driver was not amused as the judge's decision.  Nonetheless, all the speed advisory panels on the tollbooths were replaced with conventional speed limit signs within a month.

Now if only the local municipalities would get on board & replace their stationary advisory signs with actual speed limit signs.
GPS does NOT equal GOD


kphoger

Yeah, I once received an e-mailed apology from the deputy chief of police in Glen Ellyn (IL) for a local police officer having told me what I was doing was illegal (hitchhiking from the sidewalk).  Never assume that the police officer actually knows the law.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

vdeane

Quote from: PHLBOS on March 13, 2021, 03:10:34 PM
Now if only the local municipalities would get on board & replace their stationary advisory signs with actual speed limit signs.
You LIKE having advisory signs replaced with regulatory limits?  I consider that to be a reason why driving in MA sucks.  Those advisory signs have to be set for the lowest common denominator; if I can go faster, why shouldn't I be allowed to?  If someone goes too fast, driving too fast for conditions is still illegal and enforceable, regardless of what type of sign it is or even the number on the sign (driving below the speed limit in a snow storm could still count, for example).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

mrsman

Quote from: SkyPesos on March 12, 2021, 12:11:11 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 11, 2021, 10:46:10 PM
My wife just got a job in Oklahoma City, which she isn't very familiar with driving-wise (usually when we go up to the city I drive). Today, she went up there, which led to this exchange:
[img]

She's southbound on Meridian Avenue at I-40. Technically contradictory, although you can kind of grok OKC's/ODOT's intent when you've been through a few interchanges set up this way. But still, there is no signage indicating that the "left turn" here is for the eastbound I-40 service road (and thus the eastbound I-40 ramp) after the bridge.

As is my tendency when I run across a squirrelly ODOT practice, I went to check how KDOT handles the same sort of situation, and it's much clearer (southbound 78th Street at I-70 in Kansas City):
[img]
This is my first time seeing left turn lane markings before the first intersection (the one that disallows left turns) in a diamond interchange, and going to say outright that it will confuse people that way. I found a MoDOT (St Louis) example with the 2 left lanes marked as lanes to get onto I-64 E, but not as left turn lanes until past the first signals set.

Here's an Ohio example, similar to your Kansas example.

This is a good practice what is shown here.  The only problem is that it is not consistent.  Yes, the authorities in MO did right by not putting in the arrows too early.

However, if you travel on the same road in the opposite direction:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6290342,-90.346236,3a,75y,9.87h,72.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIOzNuIT82pUb57EkU75Fkg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Uh oh.

------

Here's an example from L.A.  Santa Monica Blvd at 405. 

The left turn pocket is differentiated from other lanes with a thick white line.  Yet demarked with a straight arrow:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0475089,-118.4449574,3a,75y,235.63h,63.97t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sghdvaQXmcpnahEreh0Uidg!2e0!5s20201201T000000!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1

The painted left turn arrows only begin once you pass the first signal.


L.A. traffic at its finest.  All three left lanes enter the 405 northbound ramp:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0471641,-118.4462091,3a,75y,344.68h,80.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSLWyHHhxSLgDc8mvQliP-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1

SkyPesos

Quote from: mrsman on March 14, 2021, 12:20:28 AM

This is a good practice what is shown here.  The only problem is that it is not consistent.  Yes, the authorities in MO did right by not putting in the arrows too early.

However, if you travel on the same road in the opposite direction:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6290342,-90.346236,3a,75y,9.87h,72.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIOzNuIT82pUb57EkU75Fkg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Uh oh.
I used the NB Brentwood to WB I-64 movement more than the SB to EB I linked earlier, and somehow I missed that :banghead:. Well, that's a contradictory signage example with the arrows and the no left turn sign.

jay8g

Here's a funny one from what's probably my least favorite intersection in Seattle. The problem is, you could consider either sign to be correct and I'm honestly not sure which is better for this situation. In terms of telling drivers which lane to be in for their intended movement, the one on the right is probably better, but when it comes to telling them what turns are legal, the one on the left is technically correct.

GaryV

Quote from: kphoger on March 13, 2021, 05:12:31 PM
Never assume that the police officer actually knows the law.

One year during a snow emergency I got a ticket for parking on the street.  After the street had been plowed.  I had come home and didn't want to try to drive over the hump of snow in the driveway, so I parked on the street until I could get it shoveled out.  Some enterprising officer was going down the street ticketing every car. I even looked on the city's website where the snow emergency was declared and it said it ended after the street was plowed. The neighbor across the street said her son got a ticket too, and she called the police station.  They said you could bring the ticket to them and ask for a lieutenant and it would be taken care of.  The lieutenant was not amused.

CoreySamson

Quote from: mrsman on March 14, 2021, 12:20:28 AM

This is a good practice what is shown here.  The only problem is that it is not consistent.  Yes, the authorities in MO did right by not putting in the arrows too early.

However, if you travel on the same road in the opposite direction:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6290342,-90.346236,3a,75y,9.87h,72.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIOzNuIT82pUb57EkU75Fkg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Uh oh.
That reminds me of this near me.
Buc-ee's and QuikTrip fanboy. Clincher of FM roads. Proponent of the TX U-turn.

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fwydriver405

#133
Quote from: jakeroot on March 12, 2021, 01:19:05 PM
There is this non-interchange example in Tacoma that is marked in advance with a left turn arrow, but it should be pretty clear that you turn left at the second signal.

Two examples I know of like those above exist in Maine.

1. Orono ME. At first I thought this was for the turn into Irving when I first drove through the area but that left turn lane is actually for drivers turning left onto Route 16.
2. Westbrook ME. At the signal before on the mast arm, there is a sign warning that the middle lane (left after the signal) will be a dedicated left turn lane at the next signal.

mrsman

Quote from: fwydriver405 on March 15, 2021, 03:20:12 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 12, 2021, 01:19:05 PM
There is this non-interchange example in Tacoma that is marked in advance with a left turn arrow, but it should be pretty clear that you turn left at the second signal.

Two examples I know of like those above exist in Maine.

1. Orono ME. At first I thought this was for the turn into Irving when I first drove through the area but that left turn lane is actually for drivers turning left onto Route 16.
2. Westbrook ME. At the signal before on the mast arm, there is a sign warning that the middle lane (left after the signal) will be a dedicated left turn lane at the next signal.

In the L.A. area, there is a far better way to indicate that a lane will force you to turn soon, but not right away.

THey use a yellow warnig sign that says "THRU TRAFFIC MERGE LEFT" (or RIGHT as the case may be).  Basically, it's an indication that the right lane will be ending (or forcing an upcoming right turn) and that traffic that wants to go straight must merge to the left to continue.  This is also reinforced with lane markings - thick broken white lines (nicknamed elephant tracks) indicate that a lane will be forced to turn.

Here is an example on La Brea Ave, just north of Fountain.  The curb lane is open to traffic during the afternoon rush, but will force a right turn onto Sunset in about 1/4 mile.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0947099,-118.344051,3a,75y,28.3h,83.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sByC6FgRzU0XCXqhje_Oksg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Here is an example where the left lane will force an upcoming turn.  La Tijera Blvd approaching Airport Blvd

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9679284,-118.3824668,3a,75y,217.2h,74.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1se5RQkX50p6b47cPLZORp4w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

CoreySamson

The street blade and the shield don't agree on whether the road goes to a ranch or to a farm...

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.1680827,-98.0867126,3a,15y,298.01h,90.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRS9zUPjBMyVoRwKzrAMtdA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The shields are probably in error.
Buc-ee's and QuikTrip fanboy. Clincher of FM roads. Proponent of the TX U-turn.

My Route Log
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Now on mobrule and Travel Mapping!

andrepoiy

I came across this today. This is the Hamilton-bound QEW offramp to Erin Mills Parkway.

Hmm, lane position signs (is that what they're called?) say I can go straight...



The sign shows that going straight is North Sheridan Way



Lane markings indicate I can go straight...



So why the fuck is there "No straight" regulatory signs at the end of the ramp?????


SkyPesos

 ^ Also the traffic signals there use green bulbs. It would only use left and right arrows if the straight movement really isn't allowed.

andrepoiy

 :hmmm:
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 03, 2021, 04:48:04 PM
^ Also the traffic signals there use green bulbs. It would only use left and right arrows if the straight movement really isn't allowed.

Toronto area doesn't really do arrow-only lights even if there are no straight movements allowed

Occidental Tourist

If you look at the intersection, I think you'll see it's a poor attempt to indicate that you can't go straight from the right lane.  There's the same sign opposite it next to the left turn lane.

andrepoiy

Quote from: Occidental Tourist on July 03, 2021, 07:41:12 PM
If you look at the intersection, I think you'll see it's a poor attempt to indicate that you can't go straight from the right lane.  There's the same sign opposite it next to the left turn lane.


You know what, that's indeed a possibility... However, they usually look like this in Ontario:




Big John

^^Does that mean you can make a right turn from the striped lane? :bigass:

Occidental Tourist

Quote from: andrepoiy on July 04, 2021, 11:36:07 AM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on July 03, 2021, 07:41:12 PM
If you look at the intersection, I think you'll see it's a poor attempt to indicate that you can't go straight from the right lane.  There's the same sign opposite it next to the left turn lane.


You know what, that's indeed a possibility... However, they usually look like this in Ontario:





Yep, it should be an only arrow on each post.  Maybe a Caltrans engineer was on loan to OMOT.

kphoger

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

SkyPesos

Noticed this on the way to classes today. So do I follow the bike signal or the pedestrian signal?

webny99

Quote from: andrepoiy on July 04, 2021, 11:36:07 AM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on July 03, 2021, 07:41:12 PM
If you look at the intersection, I think you'll see it's a poor attempt to indicate that you can't go straight from the right lane.  There's the same sign opposite it next to the left turn lane.


You know what, that's indeed a possibility...

I know this is old, but my initial thought was that maybe the sign is telling you not to go straight to reach the hospital...?  :D

webny99

Quote from: SkyPesos on September 30, 2021, 09:16:01 PM
Noticed this on the way to classes today. So do I follow the bike signal or the pedestrian signal?
[img]

I guess it means stop first, then use the pedestrian signal.  :D

roadman65

Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

GaryA


kurumi

Quote from: GaryA on November 09, 2021, 01:46:42 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/XRfq9i57FLKQujwZ8

Would the real Exit 1D please stand up?

I guessed that one before I clicked the link :-/

There's a 5 mile stretch of I-880 southbound that has GaryA's Exit 1D and Exit 389 for First Street (should be 4A) and Exit 4D for Brokaw Road (should be 5)
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