Contradictory signs

[webny99]

The appropriate solution would be to use the "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign. I'm OK with that. I'm not saying 55 mph is unacceptable, I'm saying it's irrelevant and potentially confusing until you get past the curves.

To me, that's splitting hairs.  "END XX MPH LIMIT" means the same darned thing in New York as the sign that's actually there.

If the entire stretch was in a 55 mph zone, there would be no need for a sign. However, it's the end of a speed zone, so a sign is needed, at least according to some, so that you can theoretically start speeding up while also slowing down for the curves.

For that purpose, it's better for drivers to be thinking "this is the end of the speed zone" than "this is the time to speed up to 55".

[webny99]

"Nanny" meaning deceptive practices that intentionally undermine the reasonable decision making of the general motoring public. If the limit increases to 55 but they specifically choose to not post it because they fear drivers may ignore the advisory limit, that's nannying. NYS did not do that here, ergo they are not nannying drivers into going 20 when they could legally go much faster than that if they want.

From looking at street view: could I take that first corner at 55? Not sure. But I could probably take it at 40 or more. 20 is too low. But the point is I can make that decision on my own, and the state lets me make that decision. Bravo.

If 20 is too low (which I tend to agree with), then that's a completely separate issue, and perhaps even more of a "nanny" one than the posting or non-posting of 55 mph.

In this case, I don't think it really matters, because the previous limit of 35 mph is reasonable - still almost double the advisory speed! But, if you insist that a sign should be present, I would prefer "END XX MPH LIMIT" for the reasons outlined in the previous post and upthread.

[jakeroot]

For that purpose, it's better for drivers to be thinking "this is the end of the speed zone" than "this is the time to speed up to 55".

What?! That's ridiculous. Stop nannying people.

[Scott5114]

"The speed limit is 55" and "20 is the recommended speed for this curve" are two entirely different pieces of information. Having both allows a driver to choose the speed that works best for them. If someone sees a "State Speed Limit 55" (not even a speed limit for this road in particular, but for the whole state, it says so right on the sign!) sign and immediately floors it to get up to 55 despite being midway through a curve, they kind of deserve what happens next.

What you are arguing is like saying a sign at a crossroad that lists two destinations in opposing directions is irrelevant and potentially confusing because someone might try to go to both of them at once.

[webny99]

What you are arguing is like saying a sign at a crossroad that lists two destinations in opposing directions is irrelevant and potentially confusing because someone might try to go to both of them at once.

Not even close. Directions to speed limits is an apples to oranges comparison. Directions are a guide for where to go, while speed limits are a guide for how to get there. Individual drivers can only have one destination at a time, while there can be any number of laws and advisories guiding their driving behavior.

Once again, if this didn't happen to be the end of a 35 mph zone, we wouldn't have any reason to be discussing this, because there would be no 55 mph sign. Just replace the 55 mph sign with an "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign to indicate the end of the speed zone, and the case is closed.

[Scott5114]

What you are arguing is like saying a sign at a crossroad that lists two destinations in opposing directions is irrelevant and potentially confusing because someone might try to go to both of them at once.

Not even close. Directions to speed limits is an apples to oranges comparison. Directions are a guide for where to go, while speed limits are a guide for how to get there. Individual drivers can only have one destination at a time, while there can be any number of laws and advisories guiding their driving behavior.

No, it's not. A speed limit sign and an advisory speed sign are a guide for how fast to operate the vehicle. Individual drivers can only have one speed at a time, and they must choose that speed the same way someone chooses a destination–by taking all the relevant information the road agency imparts and making a decision from there.

Note that in Oklahoma, which doesn't have "End XX speed limit" as part of its standard sign book (because there is no legal assumption that the default speed limit applies if there is no signage saying so), there would be no other option but to post it in the way NYSDOT did here.

[jakeroot]

Once again, if this didn't happen to be the end of a 35 mph zone, we wouldn't have any reason to be discussing this, because there would be no 55 mph sign. Just replace the 55 mph sign with an "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign to indicate the end of the speed zone, and the case is closed.

... because, in your mind, drivers cannot handle being fed two speed-related numbers.

Why do you insist that drivers are this stupid?

[jeffandnicole]

Once again, if this didn't happen to be the end of a 35 mph zone, we wouldn't have any reason to be discussing this, because there would be no 55 mph sign. Just replace the 55 mph sign with an "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign to indicate the end of the speed zone, and the case is closed.

... because, in your mind, drivers cannot handle being fed two speed-related numbers.

Why do you insist that drivers are this stupid?

Not for nothing, but 30,000 people died on the roads last year, many of them ignoring very basic signs and signals.

So, it stands to reason, that your fellow motorists are not all Mensa members.

[webny99]

Individual drivers can only have one speed at a time, and they must choose that speed the same way someone chooses a destination–by taking all the relevant information the road agency imparts and making a decision from there.

The two things are not directly comparable in terms of their function and impact on driver behavior. Speed is something that actively fluctuates throughout a trip that the driver has immediate control over. The speed limits and advisory speeds exist as a guide to regulate driver speeds, primarily for safety reasons. Directions, meanwhile, are a constant. They exist primarily to aid motorists in finding their destination, and do not actively fluctuate during a trip. Drivers may not need to actively pay attention to the directions for any number of reasons (they're familiar with the route, or they're using GPS, for example).

Why do you insist that drivers are this stupid?

I don't see it that way at all. I see it as an awareness that posting the two messages so close together is in poor taste and should be avoided. Most people that notice the two signs are probably thinking about the huge variance between the two and how laughable it is, while very few are thinking about the freedom they've been granted to choose their speed or the difference between a regulatory and an advisory sign.

[interstatefan990]

This really isn't representative of the majority, though. I've driven on many roads in my state and for the most part, END XX MPH LIMIT signs or the beginning of 55 zones are posted where it would be okay to accelerate to and maintain 55, for at least a couple hundred or perhaps thousand feet before the next curve.

NY-35 examples of an END 45 MPH LIMIT and/or 55 sign right before a straightaway that later approaches a curve:

https://goo.gl/maps/dRAkURVDCHQGzKQj9
https://goo.gl/maps/G2YcfKCGrjrwxkY37

[Scott5114]

Individual drivers can only have one speed at a time, and they must choose that speed the same way someone chooses a destination–by taking all the relevant information the road agency imparts and making a decision from there.

The two things are not directly comparable in terms of their function and impact on driver behavior.

Sure they are. I just directly compared them.

Speed is something that actively fluctuates throughout a trip that the driver has immediate control over. [...] Directions, meanwhile, are a constant. They exist primarily to aid motorists in finding their destination, and do not actively fluctuate during a trip.

So if I were to set out on a trip to Orleans County right now, I could expect that the northbound control on I-35 will be "Albion", and I can just follow that all the way to Orleans County since destinations are a constant?

Drivers may not need to actively pay attention to the directions for any number of reasons (they're familiar with the route, or they're using GPS, for example).

Drivers may not need to actively pay attention to the speed limit signage for any number of reasons (they're familiar with the route, or they're using GPS, for example).

[kphoger]

Directions to speed limits is an apples to oranges comparison.

Regulatory signage to warning signage is an apples-to-oranges comparison.

[kphoger]

What speed am I allowed to go?  Anything under 55 mph.

How tight are these curves?  Tight enough that we recommend 20 mph around them.

[webny99]

The two things are not directly comparable in terms of their function and impact on driver behavior.

Sure they are. I just directly compared them.

The comparison was in the context of a speed limit sign and an advisory sign vs two arrows pointing in different directions.

It seems to me that arrows pointing in opposite directions could not possibly be interpreted as applying to the same motorist - who only has one destination - while a speed limit sign and advisory sign must be interpreted as applying to the same motorist - whose speed will vary and who will use both for guidance. So you'll have to remind me again how those are directly comparable...

So if I were to set out on a trip to Orleans County right now, I could expect that the northbound control on I-35 will be "Albion", and I can just follow that all the way to Orleans County since destinations are a constant?

No, I said directions, not destinations. Barring something unforeseen, I-35 northbound will always go to Wichita, and NY 98 northbound will always go to Albion.

Drivers may not need to actively pay attention to the directions for any number of reasons (they're familiar with the route, or they're using GPS, for example).

Drivers may not need to actively pay attention to the speed limit signage for any number of reasons (they're familiar with the route, or they're using GPS, for example).

Ignoring the directions is of no consequence if you know where you're going. Ignoring the speed limit could be dangerous for you and your passengers, or get you a speeding ticket.

Regulatory signage to warning signage is an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Even better: now the comparison is two bananas to one apple + one orange.

[kphoger]

Ignoring the directions is of no consequence if you know where you're going.

Ignoring the speed limit sign is of no consequence if you already know the speed limit.

Wait a minute, why are we arguing about this again?

[webny99]

Ignoring the directions is of no consequence if A you know where you're going.

Ignoring the speed limit sign is of no consequence if B you already know the speed limit.

A = Does not affect your driving behavior
B = Affects your driving behavior

Wait a minute, why are we arguing about this again?

Because I found an old image on my phone, searched "contradictory signs" to find a good thread to post it to, and the rest is history.

[jakeroot]

Before I went to bed last night, I spent a good 30 minutes wandering around Google Maps to see if I could find a direct comparison to the NY example.

All told: I found nothing. But that's not to my surprise, as I already stated before that most states would likely take measures to "hide" the increased limit until after a set of curves. New York chose to post it right where it begins. There's really nothing wrong with that because drivers are not going to floor it to 55 right into the woods.

vdeane's post on the last page makes a great point:

Legally speaking, a speed limit is supposed to be a speed limit - not a target.  So "you're legally permitted to go up to 55 but we advise you go 20" is not contradictory (unlike, say, the laws of Alanland).  It's only when you start thinking of the speed limit as a target that things start to look problematic ("how can I do 55 and 20 at the same time?").

55 is not the target: the "target" is whatever you want, up to 55. The warning sign suggests 20, but you may go any speed up to 55.

Ostensibly, the two contradict each other, but they do not actually contradict because one states a warning about curves and suggests a speed, and the other indicates the maximum limit from this point forward. They do not rule each other out: they are, in fact, complimentary.

[vdeane]

I would go so far as to say that the states hiding the limit until after the curves are part of the problem when it comes to speed limit perception.  Nanny limits like that are part of what cause people to view speed limits as a minimum rather than the maximum they're supposed to be (though NMSL definitely did not help).  Honestly, I wish we could go back to having the limit be the limit rather than the current system where people assume the limit is a minimum and states post artificially low limits on the idea that "everyone will just go 10-20 mph faster anyways".

[Scott5114]

So if I were to set out on a trip to Orleans County right now, I could expect that the northbound control on I-35 will be "Albion", and I can just follow that all the way to Orleans County since destinations are a constant?

No, I said directions, not destinations.

I said destinations in my original post. You're the one who changed it to directions.

In any event, you're the only person here who views this as contradictory.

[kphoger]

So, it stands to reason, that your fellow motorists are not all Mensa members.

In any event, you're the only person here who views this as contradictory.

What remains unclear is which side of this argument is proving |jeffandnicole|'s point.

[GaryA]

Somewhere I have (wish I could find it) a picture of an old-style Los Angeles "RTD" bus stop sign, with a "Buses Excepted" plaque right below it. (Lake Ave, Pasadena, c. 1980)

The "Buses Excepted" was probably intended to go on the next signpost, which had a "Right Lane Must Turn Right" sign, but it was funnier this way.

[webny99]

I would go so far as to say that the states hiding the limit until after the curves are part of the problem when it comes to speed limit perception.  Nanny limits like that are part of what cause people to view speed limits as a minimum rather than the maximum they're supposed to be (though NMSL definitely did not help).

I actually take the opposite view: Most regular motorists would see these two signs posted together and lose any semblance of respect they had for either sign.

[hotdogPi]

Based on personal experience, you can be ticketed for advisory speeds in Massachusetts.

[kphoger]

Based on personal experience, you can be ticketed for advisory speeds in Massachusetts.

You can be ticketed for all sorts of things.  Doesn't make it illegal to do what you did.

Did you try to fight the ticket?

[jeffandnicole]

Based on personal experience, you can be ticketed for advisory speeds in Massachusetts.

As in, you were ticketed yourself?