ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling

[Bruce]

Open house on tolling until January: https://www.oregon.gov/odot/tolling/Pages/RMPP-Scoping-Comment-Period.aspx

OPB reported on this: https://www.opb.org/article/2022/11/26/odot-portland-tolls-freeways-oregon-department-of-transportation/

[Plutonic Panda]

Hopefully it's stopped:

https://katu.com/news/your-voice-your-vote/yvyv-odot-responds-to-community-concerns-about-tolling-on-i-205

[Sub-Urbanite]

I understand the emotional response folks have to tolling.

But I don't understand the academic response. Not only is the federal gas tax dropping every year — it's down to under 50% of what it was set at in 1993 — but the MPG of course is increasing.

Adjusted for inflation, you paid about 2¢ per mile to drive a Toyota Camry in federal gas taxes 1993. Now, you pay a penny every 2 miles to drive a Camry in the city. And none of that is accounting for the rapidly-growing EV market.

Sure, nobody likes tolls. But with MPG increasing, gas taxes not adjusting for inflation and construction costs increasing because of both inflation and awareness of seismic standards ... why is this something people academically oppose?

[kalvado]

I understand the emotional response folks have to tolling.

But I don't understand the academic response. Not only is the federal gas tax dropping every year — it's down to under 50% of what it was set at in 1993 — but the MPG of course is increasing.

Adjusted for inflation, you paid about 2¢ per mile to drive a Toyota Camry in federal gas taxes 1993. Now, you pay a penny every 2 miles to drive a Camry in the city. And none of that is accounting for the rapidly-growing EV market.

Sure, nobody likes tolls. But with MPG increasing, gas taxes not adjusting for inflation and construction costs increasing because of both inflation and awareness of seismic standards ... why is this something people academically oppose?

$160/month for a daily commuter is hardly an academic amount....

[vdeane]

I understand the emotional response folks have to tolling.

But I don't understand the academic response. Not only is the federal gas tax dropping every year — it's down to under 50% of what it was set at in 1993 — but the MPG of course is increasing.

Adjusted for inflation, you paid about 2¢ per mile to drive a Toyota Camry in federal gas taxes 1993. Now, you pay a penny every 2 miles to drive a Camry in the city. And none of that is accounting for the rapidly-growing EV market.

Sure, nobody likes tolls. But with MPG increasing, gas taxes not adjusting for inflation and construction costs increasing because of both inflation and awareness of seismic standards ... why is this something people academically oppose?

Literally everything except the EV part could be addressed by raising the gas tax.  And there are even other ways to address the EV issue - how about taxing roadside chargers and adding an electricity tax to home bills that would not only have some part go to roads, but also fix and modernize the electric grid to better deal with routine disruptions, extreme weather, the increased load from electrifying cars/buildings, allowing for more capacity (currently a big holdup with renewables), resiliency against CMEs, etc.

Personally, I prefer taxes to be as invisible as possible, and I hate fees.  IMO fees should only be allowed if they cover a service that has a specific cost for the government to provide the person being charged, and only if the fee is no more than said cost.

[Plutonic Panda]

Why can other states like Utah, Arizona, California etc all have massive freeway networks and fund it without tolls? Oregon isn't a poor state. They can find a way to do this without tolls this is just an anti car thing. The funding isn't the issue.

[The Ghostbuster]

Priorities, ideologies, politics. There are probably a dozen other reasons, but those first three definitely take the cake.

[Plutonic Panda]

Priorities, ideologies, politics. There are probably a dozen other reasons, but those first three definitely take the cake.

True but what I'm saying is it can and should be done. It looks like there is a decent amount of opposition to this so maybe it won't happen?

[jakeroot]

I don't think usage fees are that much to ask for. We have them for public transit too.

By and large, every freeway in Japan (expressways) have tolling. They're all in great shape...specious to assume tolls = roads in great shape, but it's money that wouldn't otherwise exist. I also feel good about spending money directly on the road knowing that it's being spent to keep it up. As opposed to taxing someone barely making ends meet and who doesn't even own a car.

[kalvado]

I don't think usage fees are that much to ask for. We have them for public transit too.

By and large, every freeway in Japan (expressways) have tolling. They're all in great shape...specious to assume tolls = roads in great shape, but it's money that wouldn't otherwise exist. I also feel good about spending money directly on the road knowing that it's being spent to keep it up. As opposed to taxing someone barely making ends meet and who doesn't even own a car.

Public transportation in US tends to have pretty small farebox recovery rates. Difference is covered by many other means, including toll raiding (Penn turnpike)
It's probably a good idea to make actual users pay for expensive pieces of infrastructure - and bridges tend to be expensive ones. Keeping that money pool separate from other uses is what governments typically not too good at.
Another question is the incredible cost of infrastructure given all the regulations. It is becoming prohibitive, with reasonable user fees payoff times going to centuries, way past structure service life. Tolls tend to expose those costs, and I would consider public unhappiness as attitude to those costs themselves rather than the way costs are passed to public

[Sub-Urbanite]

Why can other states like Utah, Arizona, California etc all have massive freeway networks and fund it without tolls? Oregon isn't a poor state. They can find a way to do this without tolls this is just an anti car thing. The funding isn't the issue.

Arizona: Sales tax for their urban freeways
Nevada: Sales tax for RTC operations and capital construction
Utah: Sales tax for UDOT capital construction
California: Sales tax
Oregon: Scotch tape and bailing wire

[The Ghostbuster]

Regardless of how it is funded, I would like Interstate 205 to be a minimum of three lanes in each direction for the entire 37.13-mile length of the freeway. That is, unless there are portions of 205 that do not need three lanes in each direction.

[Plutonic Panda]

Regardless of how it is funded, I would like Interstate 205 to be a minimum of three lanes in each direction for the entire 37.13-mile length of the freeway. That is, unless there are portions of 205 that do not need three lanes in each direction.

It should be five lanes each way. Three GP lanes and two tolled lanes each way. But yes three at minimum would be better than nothing.

[Bruce]

Regardless of how it is funded, I would like Interstate 205 to be a minimum of three lanes in each direction for the entire 37.13-mile length of the freeway. That is, unless there are portions of 205 that do not need three lanes in each direction.

It should be five lanes each way. Three GP lanes and two tolled lanes each way. But yes three at minimum would be better than nothing.

It absolutely does not need to be a minimum of five lanes each way.

[Plutonic Panda]

Regardless of how it is funded, I would like Interstate 205 to be a minimum of three lanes in each direction for the entire 37.13-mile length of the freeway. That is, unless there are portions of 205 that do not need three lanes in each direction.

It should be five lanes each way. Three GP lanes and two tolled lanes each way. But yes three at minimum would be better than nothing.

It absolutely does not need to be a minimum of five lanes each way.

Bull fucking shit. Have you not seen the amount of traffic on this road? How congested streets are in Portland? They need to build the western bypass and there's no way in hell that's happening. At least widen the damn roads to what they need to be. Portland traffic competes with Dallas.

[Bruce]

Regardless of how it is funded, I would like Interstate 205 to be a minimum of three lanes in each direction for the entire 37.13-mile length of the freeway. That is, unless there are portions of 205 that do not need three lanes in each direction.

It should be five lanes each way. Three GP lanes and two tolled lanes each way. But yes three at minimum would be better than nothing.

It absolutely does not need to be a minimum of five lanes each way.

Bull fucking shit. Have you not seen the amount of traffic on this road? How congested streets are in Portland? They need to build the western bypass and there's no way in hell that's happening. At least widen the damn roads to what they need to be. Portland traffic competes with Dallas.

I visit Portland infrequently, but am in tune with the local culture and know that they'd do anything to stop wasteful road widening. Just look at how bogged down the Rose Quarter quagmire is. The city doesn't want or need those lanes or the western bypass.

[Plutonic Panda]

Regardless of how it is funded, I would like Interstate 205 to be a minimum of three lanes in each direction for the entire 37.13-mile length of the freeway. That is, unless there are portions of 205 that do not need three lanes in each direction.

It should be five lanes each way. Three GP lanes and two tolled lanes each way. But yes three at minimum would be better than nothing.

It absolutely does not need to be a minimum of five lanes each way.

Bull fucking shit. Have you not seen the amount of traffic on this road? How congested streets are in Portland? They need to build the western bypass and there's no way in hell that's happening. At least widen the damn roads to what they need to be. Portland traffic competes with Dallas.

I visit Portland infrequently, but am in tune with the local culture and know that they'd do anything to stop wasteful road widening. Just look at how bogged down the Rose Quarter quagmire is. The city doesn't want or need those lanes or the western bypass.

Get a grip. It needs all of the above. The Rose Quarter segment needs to be 14 lanes. I can admit what's going to happen and what it really needs. You're just another anti car loon justifying Portland's ridiculous anti freeway mentality.

You're visiting Portland frequently and you don't see how bad the traffic is there?

[LilianaUwU]

Regardless of how it is funded, I would like Interstate 205 to be a minimum of three lanes in each direction for the entire 37.13-mile length of the freeway. That is, unless there are portions of 205 that do not need three lanes in each direction.

It should be five lanes each way. Three GP lanes and two tolled lanes each way. But yes three at minimum would be better than nothing.

It absolutely does not need to be a minimum of five lanes each way.

Bull fucking shit. Have you not seen the amount of traffic on this road? How congested streets are in Portland? They need to build the western bypass and there's no way in hell that's happening. At least widen the damn roads to what they need to be. Portland traffic competes with Dallas.

I visit Portland infrequently, but am in tune with the local culture and know that they'd do anything to stop wasteful road widening. Just look at how bogged down the Rose Quarter quagmire is. The city doesn't want or need those lanes or the western bypass.

Get a grip. It needs all of the above. The Rose Quarter segment needs to be 14 lanes. I can admit what's going to happen and what it really needs. You're just another anti car loon justifying Portland's ridiculous anti freeway mentality.

You're visiting Portland frequently and you don't see how bad the traffic is there?

So not wanting to destroy entire neighborhoods is being an anti-car loon? Seriously, you need to quit being so aggressive against everybody.

[Plutonic Panda]

Regardless of how it is funded, I would like Interstate 205 to be a minimum of three lanes in each direction for the entire 37.13-mile length of the freeway. That is, unless there are portions of 205 that do not need three lanes in each direction.

It should be five lanes each way. Three GP lanes and two tolled lanes each way. But yes three at minimum would be better than nothing.

It absolutely does not need to be a minimum of five lanes each way.

Bull fucking shit. Have you not seen the amount of traffic on this road? How congested streets are in Portland? They need to build the western bypass and there's no way in hell that's happening. At least widen the damn roads to what they need to be. Portland traffic competes with Dallas.

I visit Portland infrequently, but am in tune with the local culture and know that they'd do anything to stop wasteful road widening. Just look at how bogged down the Rose Quarter quagmire is. The city doesn't want or need those lanes or the western bypass.

Get a grip. It needs all of the above. The Rose Quarter segment needs to be 14 lanes. I can admit what's going to happen and what it really needs. You're just another anti car loon justifying Portland's ridiculous anti freeway mentality.

You're visiting Portland frequently and you don't see how bad the traffic is there?

So not wanting to destroy entire neighborhoods is being an anti-car loon? Seriously, you need to quit being so aggressive against everybody.

Characterize my statements how you want but I'm not going to ensure I'm not taken as "aggressive"  when responding to a simple statement like "no."  Explain yourself. Why shouldn't it be? Portland has serious traffic issues that rival cities much larger than it. It also has extremely narrow freeways and lacks beltways and additional bypasses most other larger cities have. Yes some homes would be needed but you're being extremely hyperbolic in claiming "entire neighborhoods"  so quit doing that. Explain how my plan would level "entire neighborhoods."  You don't even know what it is. What I'm suggesting other than an amount of lanes. No engineering made.

Why are people you like dead set on ensuring Portland remains the traffic choked hell hole it is without even trying mitigate the issues with some more lanes? Status quo thing, huh? Hope that wasn't too aggressive. . .

[Bickendan]

I live in Portland and know how bad traffic is. The 205 does not need to be a minimum of 5 lanes in each direction.
The Eastbank through Rose Quarter absolutely does not need to be 14 lanes.

[Plutonic Panda]

I live in Portland and know how bad traffic is. The 205 does not need to be a minimum of 5 lanes in each direction.
The Eastbank through Rose Quarter absolutely does not need to be 14 lanes.

So how many lanes does it need to be? Instead of just saying "no it doesn't need to be that wide"  how about offering a response with a solution and not a problem.

[Plutonic Panda]

One more lane isn't going to solve anything. It might help manage it better to be more effective more than one lane need be added. The 405 is consistently choked with traffic. So is I-5. There's no western bypass. Portland is a major city with heavy freight traffic. I-5 is a major spine for the west coast and Portland is a massive choke point.

I haven't seen one solution other than proposing to price the poor out of using these freeways other "oh no that's too many lanes it shouldn't five lanes each way or 14 lanes"  like I am proposing a freeway to the moon. Absolutely ridiculous. Bring your version of a solution to this conversation.

[kalvado]

I live in Portland and know how bad traffic is. The 205 does not need to be a minimum of 5 lanes in each direction.
The Eastbank through Rose Quarter absolutely does not need to be 14 lanes.

Looking at the data, pre-covid daily volumes were 150-170k daily on I-205, 140k on I-5 and 115k on I-405
All these numbers are very easily in 4-5 lane per direction range

[Bickendan]

205 really only needs aux lanes between Johnson Creek and Foster, and Foster and Powell, outside of the widening from Stafford to McGloughlin.
I-5 needs an underground relocation from the Ross Island Maze to the Fremont Stack.
The Stadium needs weaving management but good luck with that.

[kalvado]

Regardless of how it is funded, I would like Interstate 205 to be a minimum of three lanes in each direction for the entire 37.13-mile length of the freeway. That is, unless there are portions of 205 that do not need three lanes in each direction.

It should be five lanes each way. Three GP lanes and two tolled lanes each way. But yes three at minimum would be better than nothing.

It absolutely does not need to be a minimum of five lanes each way.

Bull fucking shit. Have you not seen the amount of traffic on this road? How congested streets are in Portland? They need to build the western bypass and there's no way in hell that's happening. At least widen the damn roads to what they need to be. Portland traffic competes with Dallas.

I visit Portland infrequently, but am in tune with the local culture and know that they'd do anything to stop wasteful road widening. Just look at how bogged down the Rose Quarter quagmire is. The city doesn't want or need those lanes or the western bypass.

Get a grip. It needs all of the above. The Rose Quarter segment needs to be 14 lanes. I can admit what's going to happen and what it really needs. You're just another anti car loon justifying Portland's ridiculous anti freeway mentality.

You're visiting Portland frequently and you don't see how bad the traffic is there?

So not wanting to destroy entire neighborhoods is being an anti-car loon? Seriously, you need to quit being so aggressive against everybody.

Just looking at the maps and numbers... Portland seems to that kind of neighbor  - who is blocking the road and refusing to do anything about it because it's OK for them, and the world may spin around their city hall.