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Author Topic: Milwaukee area freeways  (Read 151616 times)

JoePCool14

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #450 on: February 06, 2023, 10:17:03 PM »

Lifelong resident here - my opinion is that 794 should stay, however remove the ramps between the Marquette and Lake interchanges. 794 is a through route to the south suburbs along the lake (Bayview, Cudahy, etc.) which means you're just pushing traffic to other surface streets.

No that's not the purpose of I-794.  It's designed to collect and deliver traffic to and from downtown, not to serve the tiny percent of vehicles that are driving thru the center city en route to a couple of south shore neighborhoods and suburbs.  Suburbs and neighborhoods, which I must say, one can easily drive to from 43/94 via surface roads without having to deal with downtown commuters.

That's just flat out false. You're telling me people don't use the route to get to those suburbs? Should we never have redundant routes in case of emergencies? Why did Milwaukee rebuild the Hoan Bridge?

794 through downtown is barely a mile long. It's already there, why is it so critical to remove?
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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #451 on: February 07, 2023, 07:34:18 AM »

No one said it was “critical to remove.”  If given the choice between rebuilding and removing, I would choose removing. And you would still be able to access the southeast suburbs. They’re not talking about tearing down the Hoan or removing WI-794.
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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #452 on: February 07, 2023, 01:54:09 PM »

No one said it was “critical to remove.”  If given the choice between rebuilding and removing, I would choose removing. And you would still be able to access the southeast suburbs. They’re not talking about tearing down the Hoan or removing WI-794.

Sure...so how does one get to the Hoan from points west with 794 gone? Surface streets. It's a balloon - you squeeze from one end and the other expands. The Park West didn't have a destination. 794 ultimately does. The time for tearing it down would have been before the Lake Parkway was built.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #453 on: February 07, 2023, 02:08:54 PM »

No one said it was “critical to remove.”  If given the choice between rebuilding and removing, I would choose removing. And you would still be able to access the southeast suburbs. They’re not talking about tearing down the Hoan or removing WI-794.

Sure...so how does one get to the Hoan from points west with 794 gone? Surface streets. It's a balloon - you squeeze from one end and the other expands. The Park West didn't have a destination. 794 ultimately does. The time for tearing it down would have been before the Lake Parkway was built.


I think most of the people are using the Hoan and WI-794 to get to and from downtown.  Not points west.

But if they do, they can either use the new boulevard or surface streets to get to I-43/94.
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triplemultiplex

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #454 on: February 07, 2023, 03:39:52 PM »

That's just flat out false. You're telling me people don't use the route to get to those suburbs?
That is not what I said.  I said "a tiny percent" of all traffic using the East-West portion of I-794 is going thru downtown to access south shore neighborhoods.

Should we never have redundant routes in case of emergencies? Why did Milwaukee rebuild the Hoan Bridge?

The Hoan connects south shore neighborhoods to downtown.  That's it's primary function.  Which is a separate function from the E-W portion of I-794; that facility is to collect and distribute traffic with an origin/destination downtown, then connect it to the broader freeway system.  They don't necessarily have to be a continuous facility to serve those two functions.

794 through downtown is barely a mile long. It's already there, why is it so critical to remove?
I'd say it is not critical to remove it.  But if one is making long term future plans for downtown, something that will start to come to fruition in the mid 2030's, I think it's an entirely valid thing to study and plan for.
I'm not gonna be writing my representatives advocating for the removal of that chunk of freeway, but I'm also not going to oppose its removal if that ends up being the plan. I saw how people adapted when portions of that freeway were closed long term for construction.  It will be fine.  The money saved can go into fixing up more useful freeways in Milwaukee.  (Looking at you, Hale Interchange.)
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #455 on: February 07, 2023, 03:45:41 PM »

The only change I would make would be to convert E. St. Paul Ave. to one-way eastbound, since E. Clybourn St. is one-way westbound.
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Hobart

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #456 on: February 08, 2023, 01:27:52 AM »

The only change I would make would be to convert E. St. Paul Ave. to one-way eastbound, since E. Clybourn St. is one-way westbound.

As somebody who's been in Milwaukee for 2 1/2 years now, this has annoyed me to no end; it's so obvious that it should be a one-way feeder pair (and maybe eventually replace I-794 itself), yet it isn't!
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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #457 on: February 09, 2023, 08:00:34 PM »

No one said it was “critical to remove.”  If given the choice between rebuilding and removing, I would choose removing. And you would still be able to access the southeast suburbs. They’re not talking about tearing down the Hoan or removing WI-794.

Sure...so how does one get to the Hoan from points west with 794 gone? Surface streets. It's a balloon - you squeeze from one end and the other expands. The Park West didn't have a destination. 794 ultimately does. The time for tearing it down would have been before the Lake Parkway was built.


I think most of the people are using the Hoan and WI-794 to get to and from downtown.  Not points west.

But if they do, they can either use the new boulevard or surface streets to get to I-43/94.

You may think that, but if you work in Brookfield and live in Bayview or Cudahy, you are taking 794 from points west. And now you're dumping that traffic on the new boulevard and surface streets.

There's no free lunch with this one.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #458 on: February 09, 2023, 09:44:02 PM »

No one said it was “critical to remove.”  If given the choice between rebuilding and removing, I would choose removing. And you would still be able to access the southeast suburbs. They’re not talking about tearing down the Hoan or removing WI-794.

Sure...so how does one get to the Hoan from points west with 794 gone? Surface streets. It's a balloon - you squeeze from one end and the other expands. The Park West didn't have a destination. 794 ultimately does. The time for tearing it down would have been before the Lake Parkway was built.


I think most of the people are using the Hoan and WI-794 to get to and from downtown.  Not points west.

But if they do, they can either use the new boulevard or surface streets to get to I-43/94.

You may think that, but if you work in Brookfield and live in Bayview or Cudahy, you are taking 794 from points west. And now you're dumping that traffic on the new boulevard and surface streets.

There's no free lunch with this one.


Sure I guess those people are going to now be on surface streets. But that seems like a pretty small segment. And driving on surface streets isn’t terrible.

And yes there is benefits to this. A less expensive option than replacement and all sorts of additional development opportunities.
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triplemultiplex

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #459 on: February 10, 2023, 04:35:55 PM »

You may think that, but if you work in Brookfield and live in Bayview or Cudahy, you are taking 794 from points west. And now you're dumping that traffic on the new boulevard and surface streets.

There's no free lunch with this one.

That handful of people will be quite easily distributed among the surface arterials that connect them to I-43/94 (or 41/94 depending on how far south they are). 
Weighed against the prospect of freeing up some seriously valuable real estate, I am unmoved by the extra four minutes someone with that commute would have.
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GeekJedi

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #460 on: February 10, 2023, 10:50:43 PM »

You may think that, but if you work in Brookfield and live in Bayview or Cudahy, you are taking 794 from points west. And now you're dumping that traffic on the new boulevard and surface streets.

There's no free lunch with this one.

That handful of people will be quite easily distributed among the surface arterials that connect them to I-43/94 (or 41/94 depending on how far south they are). 
Weighed against the prospect of freeing up some seriously valuable real estate, I am unmoved by the extra four minutes someone with that commute would have.

If it's four minutes, I'll eat my socks. I worked in the Third Ward for several years, I can tell you that not only is it more than four minutes, the traffic is bad now without those roads soaking up the traffic that would be distributed with 794 gone.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #461 on: February 11, 2023, 07:41:41 AM »

If that traffic takes WI-794 over the Hoan Bridge, and then has to take a boulevard a few blocks before entering I-94 at the Marquette Interchange, you think that would be more than four additional minutes??
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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #462 on: February 11, 2023, 12:26:50 PM »

If that traffic takes WI-794 over the Hoan Bridge, and then has to take a boulevard a few blocks before entering I-94 at the Marquette Interchange, you think that would be more than four additional minutes??

Absolutely. It does now, and definitely will when that traffic increases.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #463 on: February 11, 2023, 09:26:35 PM »

If that traffic takes WI-794 over the Hoan Bridge, and then has to take a boulevard a few blocks before entering I-94 at the Marquette Interchange, you think that would be more than four additional minutes??

Absolutely. It does now, and definitely will when that traffic increases.

Four “additional” minutes.
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hobsini2

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #464 on: February 12, 2023, 09:30:04 AM »

If that traffic takes WI-794 over the Hoan Bridge, and then has to take a boulevard a few blocks before entering I-94 at the Marquette Interchange, you think that would be more than four additional minutes??

Absolutely. It does now, and definitely will when that traffic increases.

Four “additional” minutes.
You are talking about making it a boulevard in its place. Even if the dump off from the Marquette is at 2nd St, you still likely have 6 blocks of signals heading east before Lincoln Memorial and the Hoan Bridge which would also be a signal. It is not out of the realm of possibility that it could add 4 minutes vs a freeway.
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mgk920

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #465 on: February 12, 2023, 10:32:00 AM »

If that traffic takes WI-794 over the Hoan Bridge, and then has to take a boulevard a few blocks before entering I-94 at the Marquette Interchange, you think that would be more than four additional minutes??

Absolutely. It does now, and definitely will when that traffic increases.

Four “additional” minutes.
You are talking about making it a boulevard in its place. Even if the dump off from the Marquette is at 2nd St, you still likely have 6 blocks of signals heading east before Lincoln Memorial and the Hoan Bridge which would also be a signal. It is not out of the realm of possibility that it could add 4 minutes vs a freeway.

Traffic on that 'boulevard' swill also be a major impediment to crossing that street and to pedestrian circulation in the area.

Mike
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #466 on: February 12, 2023, 10:46:04 AM »

These are the same arguments that were made, and proved to be nonsense, when the Park East was removed. Time the lights right and it’s not taking significant time. And yes, pedestrians can cross the street like in every other city.
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #467 on: February 12, 2023, 01:23:30 PM »

The Park East Freeway was an underutilized freeway spur that only served local traffic. Interstate 794 not only serves downtown Milwaukee and the Lake Interchange, but also the Hoan Bridge and ultimately the Lake Parkway. According to the WisDOT traffic counts for 2018/19: https://wisdot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=2e12a4f051de4ea9bc865ec6393731f8, Interstate 794 served 94,400 cars west of the Milwaukee River Bridge, and 67,700 east of the Milwaukee River Bridge. If 794 were removed, that traffic would not just disappear. Sure, some of it may divert to other routes, but likely not enough to mitigate the removal of the freeway. Keep 794 as-is!
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GeekJedi

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #468 on: February 12, 2023, 02:51:56 PM »

The Park East Freeway was an underutilized freeway spur that only served local traffic. Interstate 794 not only serves downtown Milwaukee and the Lake Interchange, but also the Hoan Bridge and ultimately the Lake Parkway. According to the WisDOT traffic counts for 2018/19: https://wisdot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=2e12a4f051de4ea9bc865ec6393731f8, Interstate 794 served 94,400 cars west of the Milwaukee River Bridge, and 67,700 east of the Milwaukee River Bridge. If 794 were removed, that traffic would not just disappear. Sure, some of it may divert to other routes, but likely not enough to mitigate the removal of the freeway. Keep 794 as-is!

I second this. The Park East was an entirely different animal. It ended maybe a mile in at a surface street. Unless you were planning on being in that neighborhood, you wouldn't use it.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #469 on: February 12, 2023, 04:53:06 PM »

Nah. It’s not that different. It brought out the same nonsense that you’re saying here. Most of the traffic is heading downtown. So it will go downtown.

And yes. Keep it as is. But don’t replace it when that time comes.
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Stephane Dumas

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #470 on: February 12, 2023, 05:14:15 PM »

Too bad then WISDOT and the city of Milwaukee don't have more cash. We could have put I-794 in a tunnel like Boston Big Dig or a trench like a gap of I-70 in Denver but I wonder if that area is prone to flooding with the proximity of Milwaukee River and Lake Michigan?
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TheHighwayMan394

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #471 on: February 12, 2023, 07:04:47 PM »

Too bad then WISDOT and the city of Milwaukee don't have more cash. We could have put I-794 in a tunnel like Boston Big Dig or a trench like a gap of I-70 in Denver but I wonder if that area is prone to flooding with the proximity of Milwaukee River and Lake Michigan?

I mean, the NYC tunnels seem to exist just fine given two major rivers and the Atlantic Ocean (and were even built 80-90 years ago), so I don't see why this would be different?
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GeekJedi

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #472 on: February 12, 2023, 07:41:21 PM »

Nah. It’s not that different. It brought out the same nonsense that you’re saying here. Most of the traffic is heading downtown. So it will go downtown.

And yes. Keep it as is. But don’t replace it when that time comes.

Park East: 50,000 Vehicles per day
794: 100,000 Vehicles per day
Hoan Bridge: 40,000 Vehicles per day

Talk about bringing nonsense to the conversation. The Park East shares nothing in common with this.



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SEWIGuy

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #473 on: February 12, 2023, 07:49:15 PM »

Nah. It’s not that different. It brought out the same nonsense that you’re saying here. Most of the traffic is heading downtown. So it will go downtown.

And yes. Keep it as is. But don’t replace it when that time comes.

Park East: 50,000 Vehicles per day
794: 100,000 Vehicles per day
Hoan Bridge: 40,000 Vehicles per day

Talk about bringing nonsense to the conversation. The Park East shares nothing in common with this.


No this actually makes my point. Most of the traffic is going to or coming from downtown. You don't need an interstate highway to accomplish that. In fact, I think given these numbers, it makes even MORE sense than I thought previously.
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GeekJedi

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Re: Milwaukee area freeways
« Reply #474 on: February 12, 2023, 10:24:28 PM »

Nah. It’s not that different. It brought out the same nonsense that you’re saying here. Most of the traffic is heading downtown. So it will go downtown.

And yes. Keep it as is. But don’t replace it when that time comes.

Park East: 50,000 Vehicles per day
794: 100,000 Vehicles per day
Hoan Bridge: 40,000 Vehicles per day

Talk about bringing nonsense to the conversation. The Park East shares nothing in common with this.


No this actually makes my point. Most of the traffic is going to or coming from downtown. You don't need an interstate highway to accomplish that. In fact, I think given these numbers, it makes even MORE sense than I thought previously.

So 100,000 cars are supposed to get off at the Marquette interchange and onto city streets. Not sure in what world that makes sense, but you do you.
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