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Author Topic: I-69 in TX  (Read 648509 times)

sparker

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1900 on: April 15, 2021, 05:47:58 PM »

Just to confirm (if Mr. Wiki isn't lying to me):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_International_Bridge

The Laredo World Trade Port of Entry was built in 2000 in an effort to relieve traffic from the congested downtown Laredo bridges.[4] All of Laredo's cross-border commercial vehicle traffic uses this Port of Entry, as the other Laredo bridges prohibit trucks. Passenger vehicles and pedestrians are not permitted to use this crossing.

Mostly correct.  The Colombia Solidarity crossing was originally intended to take the cross-border commercial traffic.  That's where most of the toll money was supposed to come from on the Camino Colombia Toll Road (now TX-255):  truckers paying higher rates.  Mexico dragged its heels on constructing their part of the bypass and, by the time they were ready to start building, the state of Texas had decided to build the World Trade crossing, so Mexico connected their bypass to that instead.

It wasn't long after that the Cross Border Trucking Pilot Program was killed by fears over the safety of Mexican trucks on US roads lobbying by the Teamsters, who stood to lose union drayage jobs.  Although that backpedaling was against NAFTA stipulations, current and subsequent US administrations began caring less and less about NAFTA in general, and long-haul US-Mexico trucking doesn't hold much promise of returning—with Democrats being in the unions' pocket and Republicans being paranoid about anything that isn't 'America first'.  With the drayage system still firmly in place, and almost all the drayage yards still being located close to the city, most truckers preferred not to pay a toll in order to end up farther away from their destination.  So the Camino Colombia Toll Road went belly-up, and the state of Texas purchased the facility at auction on the courthouse steps.  Tolls were eventually removed, but that didn't solve the other problems, and it remains a relatively underused border crossing despite the World Trade Bridge frequently seeing long queues.

Currently:  Bridge I (Gateway to the Americas) is for pedestrians and passenger vehicles only;  Bridge II (Juárez–Lincoln) is for pedestrians, passenger vehicles, and buses only (e.g. Greyhound from Dallas to Monterrey);  Bridge III (Colombia Solidarity) is for all modes of traffic (maybe not buses, but I don't know of any carriers/routes that don't stop in either downtown Laredo or Nuevo Laredo, so it might be a moot point);  and Bridge IV (World Trade) is for commercial vehicles only.

At present, this may be the sole instance where the entire traffic content from a specific Interstate route (even though it's less than a mile of I-69W*) is limited to commercial vehicles only.  If Caltrans ever gets around to fully upgrading present CA 905 to Interstate standards as I-905, there may be a second at Otay Mesa east of the I-5 Tijuana general-traffic crossing.

*This is assuming that general traffic can utilize I-69W as far west as FM 1472 as long as it exits there.  Haven't been there; don't know the specifics.

From the Laredo-area I-69W routing plan, which utilizes the northern arc of Loop 20 (apparently the upgrade construction has already been let or is even under way), it's quite obvious that the main purpose of 69W was to provide a straight but primarily commercial shot from the border crossing to Houston.  Cross-border general traffic, having to divert to another route (south on I-35 at the present junction) or continue straight through town on Business US 59, is certainly not readily accommodated by the present arrangement.  Chances are that if & when I-2 reaches Laredo, the remainder of the Bullock/Loop 20 corridor south of where I-69W will strike out eastward will be part of I-2, so unless an additional free-flow bridge and approaches is built along I-2 south of town the current arrangement will prevail, with general cross-border traffic squeezed into one of the existing downtown crossings.         
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1901 on: April 15, 2021, 08:37:55 PM »

Maybe once more of Interstate 69W from Laredo to Victoria is constructed, they will start retracting the US 59 designation from Laredo. In fact, once 69W, 69 and 369 are completed, US 59 could be truncated all the way to Interstate 30 along the Arkansas/Texas border in Texarkana. I think the same could be said for US Highways 77, 83 and 281 when Interstates 2, 69C and 69E are completed.
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Thegeet

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1902 on: April 15, 2021, 09:57:53 PM »

Maybe once more of Interstate 69W from Laredo to Victoria is constructed, they will start retracting the US 59 designation from Laredo. In fact, once 69W, 69 and 369 are completed, US 59 could be truncated all the way to Interstate 30 along the Arkansas/Texas border in Texarkana. I think the same could be said for US Highways 77, 83 and 281 when Interstates 2, 69C and 69E are completed.
I wouldn’t be surprised though if they revert the Business 59 in Laredo to main US-59.
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motorola870

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1903 on: April 16, 2021, 02:46:34 AM »

Maybe once more of Interstate 69W from Laredo to Victoria is constructed, they will start retracting the US 59 designation from Laredo. In fact, once 69W, 69 and 369 are completed, US 59 could be truncated all the way to Interstate 30 along the Arkansas/Texas border in Texarkana. I think the same could be said for US Highways 77, 83 and 281 when Interstates 2, 69C and 69E are completed.
I wouldn’t be surprised though if they revert the Business 59 in Laredo to main US-59.
I highly doubt it. There isn't an itch these days to end concurrencies like they did in the 1980s and 1990s. I expect like what they did in Missouri with I49 either leaving the business routes as is or renaming the business routes as the interstate route and leaving the US routes on the bypasses. I think the removal of the US highways in the 1980s and 1990s with truncation actually ruined small towns. Having the US shield come through town meant some would use them as scenic tours. I have to wonder if they regret how they killed US66 it was one thing to be bypassed but completely removing it was nail in the coffin for small towns.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 02:50:31 AM by motorola870 »
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kphoger

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1904 on: April 16, 2021, 10:51:54 AM »

From the Laredo-area I-69W routing plan, which utilizes the northern arc of Loop 20 (apparently the upgrade construction has already been let or is even under way), it's quite obvious that the main purpose of 69W was to provide a straight but primarily commercial shot from the border crossing to Houston.  Cross-border general traffic, having to divert to another route (south on I-35 at the present junction) or continue straight through town on Business US 59, is certainly not readily accommodated by the present arrangement.  Chances are that if & when I-2 reaches Laredo, the remainder of the Bullock/Loop 20 corridor south of where I-69W will strike out eastward will be part of I-2, so unless an additional free-flow bridge and approaches is built along I-2 south of town the current arrangement will prevail, with general cross-border traffic squeezed into one of the existing downtown crossings.         

Is Bridge V still on the table?
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Thegeet

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1905 on: April 16, 2021, 11:28:18 AM »

From the Laredo-area I-69W routing plan, which utilizes the northern arc of Loop 20 (apparently the upgrade construction has already been let or is even under way), it's quite obvious that the main purpose of 69W was to provide a straight but primarily commercial shot from the border crossing to Houston.  Cross-border general traffic, having to divert to another route (south on I-35 at the present junction) or continue straight through town on Business US 59, is certainly not readily accommodated by the present arrangement.  Chances are that if & when I-2 reaches Laredo, the remainder of the Bullock/Loop 20 corridor south of where I-69W will strike out eastward will be part of I-2, so unless an additional free-flow bridge and approaches is built along I-2 south of town the current arrangement will prevail, with general cross-border traffic squeezed into one of the existing downtown crossings.         

Is Bridge V still on the table?
I’m not sure, but maybe not.
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bwana39

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1906 on: April 16, 2021, 05:30:46 PM »

Maybe once more of Interstate 69W from Laredo to Victoria is constructed, they will start retracting the US 59 designation from Laredo. In fact, once 69W, 69 and 369 are completed, US 59 could be truncated all the way to Interstate 30 along the Arkansas/Texas border in Texarkana. I think the same could be said for US Highways 77, 83 and 281 when Interstates 2, 69C and 69E are completed.

Actually, it could be truncated to its intersection with US-270 in Heavner OK. It is concurrent with US-270 or US-71 all the way to Texarkana.

I would expect it to be truncated to Texarkana (or maybe the Red River) as soon as I-69 / I-369 is complete to Texarkana.
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CoreySamson

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1907 on: April 16, 2021, 05:34:05 PM »

I would personally like to see US 59 rerouted down US 96 to Port Arthur instead. Makes 59 more grid-compliant, and gets rid of an out-of-grid number.
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sparker

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1908 on: April 16, 2021, 05:55:54 PM »

Maybe once more of Interstate 69W from Laredo to Victoria is constructed, they will start retracting the US 59 designation from Laredo. In fact, once 69W, 69 and 369 are completed, US 59 could be truncated all the way to Interstate 30 along the Arkansas/Texas border in Texarkana. I think the same could be said for US Highways 77, 83 and 281 when Interstates 2, 69C and 69E are completed.

Actually, it could be truncated to its intersection with US-270 in Heavner OK. It is concurrent with US-270 or US-71 all the way to Texarkana.

I would expect it to be truncated to Texarkana (or maybe the Red River) as soon as I-69 / I-369 is complete to Texarkana.

If it were to be truncated to Heavener/US 270, it's highly likely it would just continue south by subsuming US 259, which would carry it back to Nacogdoches.  But all that is moot until such time as both I-49 and I-369 reach full fruition. 
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1909 on: April 16, 2021, 09:31:51 PM »

This is in response to CoreySamson: US 59 did continue down present-day US 96 between Tenaha and Port Arthur from 1934 (when the route was first designated) to 1939. That year, US 59 was rerouted at Tenaha, and extended to Laredo (replacing the first US 96 between Rosenberg and Laredo). Old 59 between Tenaha and Port Arthur became the new US 96. I think one of two things should have happened instead: 1. Either US 96 should have been extended to Tenaha, leaving US 59 on its pre-existing route to Port Arthur; or 2. When US 59 was rerouted to Laredo, the Tenaha-to-Port-Arthur route should have been designated US 57 instead of US 96. Doing that would have made a better use of the 57 designation than the existing one between Eagle Pass and Moore (which would have made a better US 96 [II] than the existing one).
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Thegeet

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1910 on: April 17, 2021, 11:49:34 AM »

This is in response to CoreySamson: US 59 did continue down present-day US 96 between Tenaha and Port Arthur from 1934 (when the route was first designated) to 1939. That year, US 59 was rerouted at Tenaha, and extended to Laredo (replacing the first US 96 between Rosenberg and Laredo). Old 59 between Tenaha and Port Arthur became the new US 96. I think one of two things should have happened instead: 1. Either US 96 should have been extended to Tenaha, leaving US 59 on its pre-existing route to Port Arthur; or 2. When US 59 was rerouted to Laredo, the Tenaha-to-Port-Arthur route should have been designated US 57 instead of US 96. Doing that would have made a better use of the 57 designation than the existing one between Eagle Pass and Moore (which would have made a better US 96 [II] than the existing one).
I think that would be great, but Houstonians will be mad about US-59 nowhere to be in Houston. I think that is they plan to go rerouting of US-59 , it will be long after I-69 is finished in Texas. Then, maybe it wouldn’t hurt them as much as far as confusion goes.

BTW: my iPhone maps app says construction of Victoria from SL 463 to FM 1686 is finished by May 2021.
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achilles765

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1911 on: April 17, 2021, 01:40:47 PM »

This is in response to CoreySamson: US 59 did continue down present-day US 96 between Tenaha and Port Arthur from 1934 (when the route was first designated) to 1939. That year, US 59 was rerouted at Tenaha, and extended to Laredo (replacing the first US 96 between Rosenberg and Laredo). Old 59 between Tenaha and Port Arthur became the new US 96. I think one of two things should have happened instead: 1. Either US 96 should have been extended to Tenaha, leaving US 59 on its pre-existing route to Port Arthur; or 2. When US 59 was rerouted to Laredo, the Tenaha-to-Port-Arthur route should have been designated US 57 instead of US 96. Doing that would have made a better use of the 57 designation than the existing one between Eagle Pass and Moore (which would have made a better US 96 [II] than the existing one).
I think that would be great, but Houstonians will be mad about US-59 nowhere to be in Houston. I think that is they plan to go rerouting of US-59 , it will be long after I-69 is finished in Texas. Then, maybe it wouldn’t hurt them as much as far as confusion goes.

BTW: my iPhone maps app says construction of Victoria from SL 463 to FM 1686 is finished by May 2021.

Most of us who have been here for a while still refer to it as 59. You can tell pretty easily and pretty quickly when somebody is new in town when they refer to it as interstate 69
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bwana39

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1912 on: April 17, 2021, 06:54:21 PM »

This is in response to CoreySamson: US 59 did continue down present-day US 96 between Tenaha and Port Arthur from 1934 (when the route was first designated) to 1939. That year, US 59 was rerouted at Tenaha, and extended to Laredo (replacing the first US 96 between Rosenberg and Laredo). Old 59 between Tenaha and Port Arthur became the new US 96. I think one of two things should have happened instead: 1. Either US 96 should have been extended to Tenaha, leaving US 59 on its pre-existing route to Port Arthur; or 2. When US 59 was rerouted to Laredo, the Tenaha-to-Port-Arthur route should have been designated US 57 instead of US 96. Doing that would have made a better use of the 57 designation than the existing one between Eagle Pass and Moore (which would have made a better US 96 [II] than the existing one).
I think that would be great, but Houstonians will be mad about US-59 nowhere to be in Houston. I think that is they plan to go rerouting of US-59 , it will be long after I-69 is finished in Texas. Then, maybe it wouldn’t hurt them as much as far as confusion goes.

BTW: my iPhone maps app says construction of Victoria from SL 463 to FM 1686 is finished by May 2021.

I don't think Houstonians will even notice. It will still be the Southwest and Eastex Freeways regardless what the numbers are.
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Thegeet

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1913 on: April 18, 2021, 12:30:58 AM »

Anyone know what happened to the I-169 shield unveiled in 2016?
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Thegeet

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1914 on: April 18, 2021, 06:26:46 PM »

Update on County Rd interchange in Victoria: they’re mostly done with the overpass. There are yellow rails, which will be concreted soon. Afterwards, the road will be ready to pave.
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bwana39

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1915 on: April 19, 2021, 08:24:05 AM »

I would personally like to see US 59 rerouted down US 96 to Port Arthur instead. Makes 59 more grid-compliant, and gets rid of an out-of-grid number.

It would be more grid compliant, but in Texas this would be highly unlikely. Renumbers or even major reroutes have been almost non-existent in Texas post WWII.  The renumbering that should be on the forefront is US-69. The plan to deal with the conflict in Lufkin is pretty much leave it alone.  It appears that unless someone outside of Texas intervenes, that it will remain and Interstate-69 will cross (and likely still share mileage with)  US-69 in Lufkin.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3624.msg2527925#msg2527925

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7365.msg166645#msg166645
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1916 on: April 19, 2021, 01:25:07 PM »

Does anyone know what the "eventual" exit number will be when Interstate 69 crosses US 69 around Lufkin?
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Thegeet

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1917 on: April 19, 2021, 01:44:24 PM »

I would personally like to see US 59 rerouted down US 96 to Port Arthur instead. Makes 59 more grid-compliant, and gets rid of an out-of-grid number.

It would be more grid compliant, but in Texas this would be highly unlikely. Renumbers or even major reroutes have been almost non-existent in Texas post WWII.  The renumbering that should be on the forefront is US-69. The plan to deal with the conflict in Lufkin is pretty much leave it alone.  It appears that unless someone outside of Texas intervenes, that it will remain and Interstate-69 will cross (and likely still share mileage with)  US-69 in Lufkin.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3624.msg2527925#msg2527925

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7365.msg166645#msg166645
I think it would have to take a fine or something to force a change, but I don’t think we have these laws.
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bwana39

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1918 on: April 19, 2021, 03:55:34 PM »

I would personally like to see US 59 rerouted down US 96 to Port Arthur instead. Makes 59 more grid-compliant, and gets rid of an out-of-grid number.

It would be more grid compliant, but in Texas this would be highly unlikely. Renumbers or even major reroutes have been almost non-existent in Texas post WWII.  The renumbering that should be on the forefront is US-69. The plan to deal with the conflict in Lufkin is pretty much leave it alone.  It appears that unless someone outside of Texas intervenes, that it will remain and Interstate-69 will cross (and likely still share mileage with)  US-69 in Lufkin.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3624.msg2527925#msg2527925

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7365.msg166645#msg166645
I think it would have to take a fine or something to force a change, but I don’t think we have these laws.

Theoretically, AASHTO could refuse to grant its' permission to sign it as interstate 69 until they fix the rule violation.  FHWA could overrule them and allow an exception (or not). The US Congress could mandate overruling AASHTO.   This is assuming that AASHTO doesn't just rubber stamp the waiver.  Don't believe for a moment that AASHTO is a non-political entity. They MAY not subscribe to PARTISAN politics, but there is political wrangling that happens.  Because of this wrangling, approval is as much situational as it is rules based.

Even if they refuse to allow it, it might be a simple wink wink nod nod thing that happens. I-69 takes a break from north of Lufkin to around the mall. In Hunt and Hopkins counties there were grade crossings on interstate 30 until the mid-eighties. Until they put up the "freeway ends" signs at division street in Greenville hardly anyone thought about it.  Then TxDOT came in and built the rest of the overpasses.  So in Lufkin. the FREEWAY (I-69) could end for a couple of miles.

The laws are there, but enforcement is uneven and avoidable if you want to bad enough....
.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 04:17:12 PM by bwana39 »
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debragga

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1919 on: April 19, 2021, 06:12:59 PM »

Does anyone know what the "eventual" exit number will be when Interstate 69 crosses US 69 around Lufkin?

Hopefully it's exit 69
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abqtraveler

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1920 on: April 19, 2021, 06:18:59 PM »

I would personally like to see US 59 rerouted down US 96 to Port Arthur instead. Makes 59 more grid-compliant, and gets rid of an out-of-grid number.

It would be more grid compliant, but in Texas this would be highly unlikely. Renumbers or even major reroutes have been almost non-existent in Texas post WWII.  The renumbering that should be on the forefront is US-69. The plan to deal with the conflict in Lufkin is pretty much leave it alone.  It appears that unless someone outside of Texas intervenes, that it will remain and Interstate-69 will cross (and likely still share mileage with)  US-69 in Lufkin.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3624.msg2527925#msg2527925

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7365.msg166645#msg166645
I think it would have to take a fine or something to force a change, but I don’t think we have these laws.

Theoretically, AASHTO could refuse to grant its' permission to sign it as interstate 69 until they fix the rule violation.  FHWA could overrule them and allow an exception (or not). The US Congress could mandate overruling AASHTO.   This is assuming that AASHTO doesn't just rubber stamp the waiver.  Don't believe for a moment that AASHTO is a non-political entity. They MAY not subscribe to PARTISAN politics, but there is political wrangling that happens.  Because of this wrangling, approval is as much situational as it is rules based.

Even if they refuse to allow it, it might be a simple wink wink nod nod thing that happens. I-69 takes a break from north of Lufkin to around the mall. In Hunt and Hopkins counties there were grade crossings on interstate 30 until the mid-eighties. Until they put up the "freeway ends" signs at division street in Greenville hardly anyone thought about it.  Then TxDOT came in and built the rest of the overpasses.  So in Lufkin. the FREEWAY (I-69) could end for a couple of miles.

The laws are there, but enforcement is uneven and avoidable if you want to bad enough....
.

There is a lot of precedence on signing completed segments of interstate as interstates, even though they may not connect to other parts of the interstate system. When the interstate highway system was being built, many states built bypasses around towns first, then connected them by upgrading the pre-existing US or state routes to interstate standards. Interstate 40 through New Mexico was not fully completed until the mid-1980s; yet completed but not-yet-connected segments were signed as I-40. In places where I-40 had not been completed, the interstate transitioned into US-66 that was either 2 lanes or 4 lanes in some places, until one hit the next section of freeway. Then I-40 resumed again. All told, it took around 30 years to complete I-40 through New Mexico, so in that time there was plenty of going back and forth between US-66 and I-40 while driving across the state.
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sprjus4

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1921 on: April 19, 2021, 07:38:58 PM »

Did they take advantage of the "Temporary" designation that some states used in the 1970s and 1980s to at least provide a continuously signed route for through traffic?

In North Carolina, 4-lane US-301 between Kenly and Rocky Mount served as "Temp I-95" until I-95 opened to the west in the late 1970s.
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Thegeet

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1922 on: April 19, 2021, 08:55:11 PM »

Does anyone know what the "eventual" exit number will be when Interstate 69 crosses US 69 around Lufkin?

Hopefully it's exit 69
Imagine such a 69ish vibe. In all seriousness, exit 69 would be within Wharton county, if there is an exit at mile 69. For US 69, the exit would likely be something between 250-269.
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sparker

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1923 on: April 20, 2021, 03:25:40 AM »

Did they take advantage of the "Temporary" designation that some states used in the 1970s and 1980s to at least provide a continuously signed route for through traffic?

In North Carolina, 4-lane US-301 between Kenly and Rocky Mount served as "Temp I-95" until I-95 opened to the west in the late 1970s.

Since the end of the chargeability era, AASHTO hasn't looked too kindly on "temporary" signage along existing routes.    For the time being, about the only indication that a route is part of a designated Interstate corridor -- even if it connects two disparate signed segments -- are green signs, big or small, clearly stating "Future I-xx Corridor". 
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sprjus4

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Re: I-69 in TX
« Reply #1924 on: April 20, 2021, 09:32:36 AM »

Did they take advantage of the "Temporary" designation that some states used in the 1970s and 1980s to at least provide a continuously signed route for through traffic?

In North Carolina, 4-lane US-301 between Kenly and Rocky Mount served as "Temp I-95" until I-95 opened to the west in the late 1970s.

Since the end of the chargeability era, AASHTO hasn't looked too kindly on "temporary" signage along existing routes.    For the time being, about the only indication that a route is part of a designated Interstate corridor -- even if it connects two disparate signed segments -- are green signs, big or small, clearly stating "Future I-xx Corridor".
I was referring to I-40 across New Mexico.
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