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Are EU Cohesion Policy funds well spent on roads?

Started by cpzilliacus, July 24, 2013, 01:32:22 PM

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cpzilliacus

Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.


Chris

That report was widely panned in the European road community for cherry picking statistics to make German policy look good. They compared only a few projects in Poland, Spain and Germany (in fact, much of the conclusions are based on examined route segments under 10 kilometers in length). Their methodology was questionable, as well as comparing pre-recession traffic forecasts with current volumes, which, of course, doesn't work out well for Spain, especially because they conclude that Spanish roads are more expensive relative to its usage. It doesn't say anything about actual construction cost per kilometer, which is significantly lower in Spain than it is in Germany (or much of Europe for that matter).

english si

Spain is always going to be a really poor example of how EU money is spent. Doubly so on infrastructure, which Spain used the way that the French use the CAP (and other states use other things) - get as much out of being in the EU as possible. The UK negotiated a rebate in the 80s based on them not having a cash cow department that was designed for them to milk, whereas others (especially France and Germany), did.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: Chris on July 24, 2013, 01:46:59 PM
Their methodology was questionable, as well as comparing pre-recession traffic forecasts with current volumes, which, of course, doesn't work out well for Spain, especially because they conclude that Spanish roads are more expensive relative to its usage.

Speaking of Spain, the most-recent Top Gear (note: the real Top Gear, not the U.S. version) that aired here in the U.S. (on BBC America - I don't know when the BBC airs Top Gear in the UK or when it airs in other EU nations) featured the guys (Jeremy Clarkson, James May and Richard Hammond) driving three supercars across parts of Spain, and they stopped in at least two "bubble" housing developments that were built between 2001 and 2008 but have never been occupied. 

These places appeared to be huge (hundreds of apartment and single-family attached units ("townhomes" in U.S.-speak)) and looked to be nicely built, too.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

english si

Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 25, 2013, 04:15:35 PMSpeaking of Spain, the most-recent Top Gear (note: the real Top Gear, not the U.S. version) that aired here in the U.S. (on BBC America - I don't know when the BBC airs Top Gear in the UK or when it airs in other EU nations)
Sundays at 8, though that was Sunday before last and we've had another episode since.
Quotethey stopped in at least two "bubble" housing developments that were built between 2001 and 2008 but have never been occupied.
Don't forget the international airport...

Chris

Spain had a tremendous population growth until the recession kicked in. The population grew by 6 million in just 8 years, from 40.5 million in 2001 to 46.2 million in 2009. This, coupled with large-scale migration from rural areas to the cities, resulted in an incredible construction spree, especially housing. Huge subdivisions were developed around the largest cities, especially in Madrid. Madrid is one of the very few metropolitan areas in Europe to have numerous suburbs with more than 100,000 inhabitants.

I don't think the Spanish motorway system is very overbuilt. Of course there are some questionable autovías to small town and autovías built next to tolled autopistas, but generally speaking the motorway system chiefly connects larger cities. However traffic volumes are low outside the large cities due to the low population density of the countryside. But so were the construction costs, many autovías in the Meseta were constructed for only € 3 - 6 million per kilometer, whereas the construction cost is usually over € 15 million per kilometer in most other parts of Europe. And they dramatically improved traffic safety. The Spanish fatality rate went from among the highest to among the lowest in Europe. The 2012 fatality rate was 41 per 1 million, which is lower than Germany and substantially lower than France or Austria.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: english si on July 25, 2013, 06:46:08 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 25, 2013, 04:15:35 PMSpeaking of Spain, the most-recent Top Gear (note: the real Top Gear, not the U.S. version) that aired here in the U.S. (on BBC America - I don't know when the BBC airs Top Gear in the UK or when it airs in other EU nations)
Sundays at 8, though that was Sunday before last and we've had another episode since.

For a quite a while, I got the impression  that the Top Gear episodes airing on BBC America were months or even years behind when they aired on the BBC in the UK, but now it seems that we get them about the same time as viewers in the UK do.

While I don't like commercials very much (and BBC America is advertiser-supported), at least they don't cut Top Gear -  they  just insert ads and make the running time longer, so I record it and then fast-forward through the commercials.

Quote from: english si on July 25, 2013, 06:46:08 PM
Quotethey stopped in at least two "bubble" housing developments that were built between 2001 and 2008 but have never been occupied.
Don't forget the international airport...

Yeah, I recall a mention of that - perhaps in the Washington Post or N.Y. Times.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: Chris on July 26, 2013, 07:38:08 AM
Spain had a tremendous population growth until the recession kicked in. The population grew by 6 million in just 8 years, from 40.5 million in 2001 to 46.2 million in 2009. This, coupled with large-scale migration from rural areas to the cities, resulted in an incredible construction spree, especially housing. Huge subdivisions were developed around the largest cities, especially in Madrid. Madrid is one of the very few metropolitan areas in Europe to have numerous suburbs with more than 100,000 inhabitants.

That's pretty good growth!

Was the population growth due to immigration to Spain  from other EU nations?

Quote from: Chris on July 26, 2013, 07:38:08 AM
I don't think the Spanish motorway system is very overbuilt. Of course there are some questionable autovías to small town and autovías built next to tolled autopistas, but generally speaking the motorway system chiefly connects larger cities. However traffic volumes are low outside the large cities due to the low population density of the countryside. But so were the construction costs, many autovías in the Meseta were constructed for only € 3 - 6 million per kilometer, whereas the construction cost is usually over € 15 million per kilometer in most other parts of Europe.

The  U.S. has a few instances of toll roads being next to "free" freeways - the  most-famous might be I-295 being very close to (and sometimes visible from) the New Jersey Turnpike in South Jersey. 

Another example in Orange County, Calif. is tolled Ca. 73 (San Joaquin Hills Transportation Corridor) which runs parallel to I-405 (San Diego Freeway). When I am out that way, I always take Ca. 73 (especially when  driving north) because the views and scenery are pretty spectacular if the weather is clear.

That is a very cheap price for building new highway capacity.  Was any of it upgraded from older arterial-style roads?

Quote from: Chris on July 26, 2013, 07:38:08 AM
And they dramatically improved traffic safety. The Spanish fatality rate went from among the highest to among the lowest in Europe. The 2012 fatality rate was 41 per 1 million, which is lower than Germany and substantially lower than France or Austria.

That is something that groups and individuals opposed to improved highways never want to discuss.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

english si

Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 26, 2013, 01:03:34 PMThat's pretty good growth!

Was the population growth due to immigration to Spain  from other EU nations?
There was certainly a snow bird migration to Spain in the 00s. Parts of the Med coast are more British than Spanish, starting with catering to the more uncooth clientele who just want sun, but don't want foreign (plus the properly civilised who need a proper cup of tea), but added to by the snow birds.

Chris

Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 26, 2013, 01:03:34 PM
That is a very cheap price for building new highway capacity.  Was any of it upgraded from older arterial-style roads?

The early style autovías were mainly a duplication of existing carreteras nacionales, especially in the 1980s and early 1990s, which gave rise to the idea of the autovía being some kind of inferior motorway. However design standards improved significantly and nearly all autovías built in the last 15 years were on entirely new alignments. The speed limit was also upped to 120 km/h (75 miles per hour). Most autovías tend to have a high exit density, but other than that they are comparable to motorways elsewhere in Europe. They are significantly better designed than many Italian superstradas. Nowadays the difference between an autovía and an autopista is mainly tolls.

J N Winkler

To make the situation on the ground even more messy, there are freeway-standard roads which are formally carreteras convencionales (such as the Benidorm bypass) and untolled autopistas.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

firefly

Quote from: Chris on July 24, 2013, 01:46:59 PMTheir methodology was questionable, as well as comparing pre-recession traffic forecasts with current volumes, which, of course, doesn't work out well for Spain, especially because they conclude that Spanish roads are more expensive relative to its usage. It doesn't say anything about actual construction cost per kilometre, which is significantly lower in Spain than it is in Germany (or much of Europe for that matter).
There is nothing wrong in pointing out the unfavourable ratio between construction costs and the actual use of Spanish roads. Infrastructure projects in Germany get scrapped or are delayed if their benefit-cost-ratio isn't big enough. One would expect a similar policy in Spain as well. But that doesn't seem to be the case. As we have found out now there has been mismanagement on several levels of the Spanish administration. And funds have certainly not been used well.

iregua

#12
Being from Spain I think that I could give my 2 cents here.

IMO, we should have used the Cohesion funds to change the track gauge and open again some closed railways, therefore promoting the predominance of rail freight over road freight. With fewer trucks on the roads, it would have been more than enough to build 1+1 or 2+1 expressways with a crash barrier in the middle to prevent head-on collisions. Even building bypasses to some narrow through-roads would have been enough for many national roads which now have a motorway next to them!

Having said this, the methodology used in the report doesn't seem very appropriate. They only chose a few stretches that are not representative for the whole network. However, if the question is whether the EU Cohesion funds have been well spent in Spain or not, my answer is NO. It's true that Spain is now richer than it was in 1986, but the amount of money spent here could have been used to create a least oil-dependent industry-based country instead of a poor (for EU standards) country with good-but-empty motorways, HSLs, airports and towns.



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