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Non-Road Boards => Off-Topic => Weather => Topic started by: Stephane Dumas on August 27, 2017, 12:43:30 PM

Title: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: Stephane Dumas on August 27, 2017, 12:43:30 PM
I thought to post a thread about Hurricane Harvey who currently hit Houston.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-27/houston-surreal-and-after-photo

Here a video showing the area of Buffalo Bayou
?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zerohedge.com%2Fnews%2F2017-08-27%2Fhouston-surreal-and-after-photo
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: sparker on August 27, 2017, 03:53:32 PM
This one seems like it'll be really bad -- my cousin living in Lake Jackson, who can and does usually plow through just about anything -- elected to have her condo boarded up, grab her valuables, and go stay with her oldest daughter in Overland Park, KS for a couple of weeks -- or until whenever the expected Houston-area flood waters subside.  Sent her a map showing options for heading north; she seemed to favor a TX 6/TX 14 routing (local news warns about severe congestion on I-45 north), and heading up US 75/69 through OK, keeping on 69 up to her destination.  Did warn her about the OK speed traps (Stringtown, etc.); she tends to be something of a leadfoot!       
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: US 89 on August 27, 2017, 04:47:37 PM
It made landfall as a Category 4 near Port Aransas, which was the first such landfall in the US since Charley in 2004. Now it looks like a major flood disaster for Houston. This is probably going to be the worst hurricane in the US since Ike, and maybe even Katrina.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: bing101 on August 27, 2017, 07:31:32 PM
https://patch.com/texas/sugarland/hurricane-harvey-sinkhole-opens-rosenberg

Update a road has collapsed in the Rosenberg part of Texas. This is one of many roads in Texas that's either flooded or got eroded by Sinkhole.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: 1995hoo on August 27, 2017, 07:43:12 PM
There are a lot of pictures on Twitter showing flooding up to the level of mast-arm-mounted traffic lights or a foot or two shy of overhead BGSs or the like. Unimaginable how much water that is and how long it will take for it to drain.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: Hot Rod Hootenanny on August 27, 2017, 10:23:12 PM
I'm not aware of any infrastructure in this country that is built to withstand 40" of rain  :-o
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: MNHighwayMan on August 28, 2017, 12:33:55 AM
There are a lot of pictures on Twitter showing flooding up to the level of mast-arm-mounted traffic lights or a foot or two shy of overhead BGSs or the like. Unimaginable how much water that is and how long it will take for it to drain.

Now's the perfect time to get those closeup shots of BGSes like you've always wanted. :bigass:
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: sparker on August 28, 2017, 01:33:03 AM
There are a lot of pictures on Twitter showing flooding up to the level of mast-arm-mounted traffic lights or a foot or two shy of overhead BGSs or the like. Unimaginable how much water that is and how long it will take for it to drain.

Now's the perfect time to get those closeup shots of BGSes like you've always wanted. :bigass:

First, find a boat that isn't already occupied with the rescue operation................
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: GreenLanternCorps on August 28, 2017, 08:29:30 AM
I'm not aware of any infrastructure in this country that is built to withstand 40" of rain  :-o

For comparison, the devastating Great Dayton Flood of 1913 was only 11 inches of rain on saturated ground.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Dayton_Flood

However, Houston and Texas might want to look at the Miami Conservancy district as a possible solution to help with flooding.

https://www.mcdwater.org/flood-protection/retarding-basins-and-levees/

A series of dry dams and basins are designed to hold excess rain water and let it slowly drain away to prevent flooding down river.

Given the massive amount of water in a Hurricane, I'm not sure how mush it will help, but it can't hurt.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: epzik8 on August 28, 2017, 09:51:26 AM
It's a really devastating event for the Texas Gulf Coast.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: roadman on August 28, 2017, 10:00:01 AM
Just curious about how many people are now stuck because city and county officials failed to issue mandatory evacuations before the storm hit.  On Friday afternoon's news, I heard one official saying "We're not issuing mandatory evacuations because we believe that government shouldn't be forcing people to do things."
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: codyg1985 on August 28, 2017, 10:34:10 AM
However, Houston and Texas might want to look at the Miami Conservancy district as a possible solution to help with flooding.

https://www.mcdwater.org/flood-protection/retarding-basins-and-levees/

A series of dry dams and basins are designed to hold excess rain water and let it slowly drain away to prevent flooding down river.

Given the massive amount of water in a Hurricane, I'm not sure how mush it will help, but it can't hurt.

It seems like there are a couple of these upstream of Buffalo Bayou, but the USACE has to release water to keep the levees from over-topping.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: codyg1985 on August 28, 2017, 10:35:30 AM
Just curious about how many people are now stuck because city and county officials failed to issue mandatory evacuations before the storm hit.  On Friday afternoon's news, I heard one official saying "We're not issuing mandatory evacuations because we believe that government shouldn't be forcing people to do things."

On one hand I am surprised that evacuations were not ordered. On the other hand, with the amount of people in Houston, ordering an evacuation with only 12 hours before the storm hits would create a potential humanitarian crisis of its own due to people getting stranded.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: wxfree on August 28, 2017, 12:02:54 PM
Just curious about how many people are now stuck because city and county officials failed to issue mandatory evacuations before the storm hit.  On Friday afternoon's news, I heard one official saying "We're not issuing mandatory evacuations because we believe that government shouldn't be forcing people to do things."

An evacuation was not feasible.  There was no particular zone that needed to be cleared, as would be the case in a normal hurricane strike causing storm surge, wind, and rain, and then moving away.  The entire area is affected by this.  Imagine the flooded roads news reports are showing us being shown packed full of cars.  An evacuation would have trapped people the roads, many likely drowning, and there was no chance that it could have been successful in the time given.  Unlike a direct hit from a hurricane, in which people in surge-prone areas could leave and spread in all directions, the entire area population would have to leave, with one of the directions, southeast, being cut off due to the storm being that way.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: roadman on August 28, 2017, 12:09:36 PM
Just curious about how many people are now stuck because city and county officials failed to issue mandatory evacuations before the storm hit.  On Friday afternoon's news, I heard one official saying "We're not issuing mandatory evacuations because we believe that government shouldn't be forcing people to do things."

An evacuation was not feasible.  There was no particular zone that needed to be cleared, as would be the case in a normal hurricane strike causing storm surge, wind, and rain, and then moving away.  The entire area is affected by this.  Imagine the flooded roads news reports are showing us being shown packed full of cars.  An evacuation would have trapped people the roads, many likely drowning, and there was no chance that it could have been successful in the time given.  Unlike a direct hit from a hurricane, in which people in surge-prone areas could leave and spread in all directions, the entire area population would have to leave, with one of the directions, southeast, being cut off due to the storm being that way.
Your point is taken, and I concur with the arguments - especially for an area like Houston.  However, what struck me as odd was the "government shouldn't be in the business of telling people what they should do" tone of the statements some officials were making.  And this was well before the hurricane made initial landfall.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: GreenLanternCorps on August 28, 2017, 12:15:35 PM
However, Houston and Texas might want to look at the Miami Conservancy district as a possible solution to help with flooding.

https://www.mcdwater.org/flood-protection/retarding-basins-and-levees/

A series of dry dams and basins are designed to hold excess rain water and let it slowly drain away to prevent flooding down river.

Given the massive amount of water in a Hurricane, I'm not sure how mush it will help, but it can't hurt.

It seems like there are a couple of these upstream of Buffalo Bayou, but the USACE has to release water to keep the levees from over-topping.

The difference between a dry dam and a levee is the dry dam has no moving parts.  It has a built in release to let water out at a pace that the river downstream can handle.

If  you look at this photo you will see that the dam has holes at the bottom for normal river flow and at the top to prevent over topping the dam.

The combined flow from these outlets is no more than the river can handle, and enough to protect the dam.

(https://www.mcdwater.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/lockington-00531-e1446155430105-595x426.jpg)

https://www.mcdwater.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/FloodProtectionSystem.pdf

 

Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 28, 2017, 12:16:58 PM
Just curious about how many people are now stuck because city and county officials failed to issue mandatory evacuations before the storm hit.  On Friday afternoon's news, I heard one official saying "We're not issuing mandatory evacuations because we believe that government shouldn't be forcing people to do things."

An evacuation was not feasible.  There was no particular zone that needed to be cleared, as would be the case in a normal hurricane strike causing storm surge, wind, and rain, and then moving away.  The entire area is affected by this.  Imagine the flooded roads news reports are showing us being shown packed full of cars.  An evacuation would have trapped people the roads, many likely drowning, and there was no chance that it could have been successful in the time given.  Unlike a direct hit from a hurricane, in which people in surge-prone areas could leave and spread in all directions, the entire area population would have to leave, with one of the directions, southeast, being cut off due to the storm being that way.
Your point is taken, and I concur with the arguments - especially for an area like Houston.  However, what struck me as odd was the "government shouldn't be in the business of telling people what they should do" tone of the statements some officials were making.

Over the years, many ordinary citizens in Texas have felt this way to begin with.  I think I read that even in a city (Corpus Christi?) that had a mandatory evacuation, nearly 60% of the people stayed behind.  Those people didn't heed what the government told them to do anyway. 

But as pointed out above, mandatory evacuations have their downfalls as well.  While storms can be predicted what they'll do, what they actually do is another story.  Do you risk telling people to evacuate west?  How far?  What if a storm that was predicted to move north goes west instead?  Now all those people are in danger anyway. 

And, of course, the minute destruction happens, everyone wants the government to help with money...but won't want the government to tell them what to do otherwise!
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: wxfree on August 28, 2017, 12:26:55 PM
Just curious about how many people are now stuck because city and county officials failed to issue mandatory evacuations before the storm hit.  On Friday afternoon's news, I heard one official saying "We're not issuing mandatory evacuations because we believe that government shouldn't be forcing people to do things."

An evacuation was not feasible.  There was no particular zone that needed to be cleared, as would be the case in a normal hurricane strike causing storm surge, wind, and rain, and then moving away.  The entire area is affected by this.  Imagine the flooded roads news reports are showing us being shown packed full of cars.  An evacuation would have trapped people the roads, many likely drowning, and there was no chance that it could have been successful in the time given.  Unlike a direct hit from a hurricane, in which people in surge-prone areas could leave and spread in all directions, the entire area population would have to leave, with one of the directions, southeast, being cut off due to the storm being that way.
Your point is taken, and I concur with the arguments - especially for an area like Houston.  However, what struck me as odd was the "government shouldn't be in the business of telling people what they should do" tone of the statements some officials were making.  And this was well before the hurricane made initial landfall.

It is Texas.  There are people who think like that.  It was probably someone trying to score political points by putting that spin on the decision after the decision was made. There are segments of the population it would appeal to.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: sparker on August 28, 2017, 12:40:53 PM
Historically, storms & hurricanes coming in from the Gulf have tended to head straight inland on the path of least resistance -- one of the river valleys (Brazos, Guadalupe, Nueces) and dissipate the farther away from the Gulf they got.  But Harvey's so slow that it's picking up water from the lower river areas and wetlands near the Gulf, and moving sideways as it picks up moisture on one side or the other; hence its original landfall near Rockport followed by a lateral move NE toward Houston, "feeding" itself all the while.  Whereas the "old" (historical) paths were somewhat predictable (going upriver from landfall), allowing evacuation patterns to emanate outward from that path, Harvey has rendered any semblance of predictability unreliable, as it could conceivably go anywhere from its current location; it's not moving fast enough in any particular direction to establish a calculable trajectory.  It also might well stay where it is until it eventually peters out -- it's got plenty of water to feed it with Galveston Bay and its associated branches as well as within the lower Brazos area.  We'll just have to see what happens over the next 5-7 days! 
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: davewiecking on August 28, 2017, 01:11:47 PM
What turned into Cat4 Harvey on Friday was little more than a disorganized low pressure system that crossed the Yucatan Peninsula mid-week. If ANYBODY had realized on Wednesday that disaster was coming on Friday, that probably still would have been too late to issue more wide-spread mandatory evacuation orders.

I think the most chilling quote I've read was a Freeport official stating that the area is "completely void of functioning infrastructure".
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: The Ghostbuster on August 28, 2017, 01:24:52 PM
I have been keeping track of the news on Hurricane Harvey since the get-go. The devastation I have seen is horrific (as it always is when a hurricane pays a visit to one's town). It has been 12-13 years since such a hurricane has struck the mainland US. We can only hope the same amount of time will pass before the next one inevitably strikes.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: cjk374 on August 28, 2017, 02:14:03 PM
Wasn't there an evacuation in the Houston area several years ago that plugged up I-45 so badly that people were running out of gas from idling in the gridlocked traffic? Then it turned out that the storm never came to Houston? Maybe it was Rita? I can't remember.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: bing101 on August 28, 2017, 02:29:56 PM
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/index.ssf/2017/08/tornado_flood_lake_charles.html

Update Lake Charles, Louisiana is on Flood Watch.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: wxfree on August 28, 2017, 02:44:31 PM
The radar estimates show that basically everywhere inside Beltway 8 has had more than 25 inches of rain, and pretty close to the all of Harris, Galveston, and Chambers Counties, and a significant majority of Liberty County.  The scale stops at 25 inches.  I saw a report on television just a fraction of an inch from 40.  Discussing the truly enormous totals can easily overshadow the scope of still-excessive totals, such as "just" one foot of rain, occurring more than 100 miles inland.

Here's a localized view.  It's easier to see if you turn off the warnings.
https://radar.weather.gov/ridge/radar.php?rid=hgx&product=NTP&overlay=11101101&loop=no (https://radar.weather.gov/ridge/radar.php?rid=hgx&product=NTP&overlay=11101101&loop=no)

The Brazos River near Bryan has risen about 17 feet since Friday.  That station is upstream from where most of the foot-plus totals are.  The Brazos is a major river that usually floods over a period of weeks or months with repeated heavy rains.  It can handle a lot of water and is nowhere near flood stage at Bryan.  The next station downstream is near Hempstead, and the river has risen about 40 feet since Saturday and is expected to reach moderate flood stage.  Flooding levels that generally takes weeks or months develop in one of the state's largest rivers happened in two days.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: TravelingBethelite on August 28, 2017, 02:47:58 PM
Wasn't there an evacuation in the Houston area several years ago that plugged up I-45 so badly that people were running out of gas from idling in the gridlocked traffic? Then it turned out that the storm never came to Houston? Maybe it was Rita? I can't remember.

Your memory serves you right. The evacuation of which you speak took place in response to Hurricane Rita. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Rita (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Rita)
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 28, 2017, 02:48:09 PM
Texans will move game.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: jwolfer on August 28, 2017, 04:42:30 PM
Historically, storms & hurricanes coming in from the Gulf have tended to head straight inland on the path of least resistance -- one of the river valleys (Brazos, Guadalupe, Nueces) and dissipate the farther away from the Gulf they got.  But Harvey's so slow that it's picking up water from the lower river areas and wetlands near the Gulf, and moving sideways as it picks up moisture on one side or the other; hence its original landfall near Rockport followed by a lateral move NE toward Houston, "feeding" itself all the while.  Whereas the "old" (historical) paths were somewhat predictable (going upriver from landfall), allowing evacuation patterns to emanate outward from that path, Harvey has rendered any semblance of predictability unreliable, as it could conceivably go anywhere from its current location; it's not moving fast enough in any particular direction to establish a calculable trajectory.  It also might well stay where it is until it eventually peters out -- it's got plenty of water to feed it with Galveston Bay and its associated branches as well as within the lower Brazos area.  We'll just have to see what happens over the next 5-7 days!
In the past a tropical storm.. Allison if recall stalled out over Houston dumping tons of rain.. So this has happened before.. It will happen again.

A few years ago a front dumped 20+ inches of rain in the Florida panhandle.. No where has infrastructure to handle that  much of rain...



LGMS428

Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: bing101 on August 28, 2017, 05:25:18 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/latest-storm-ground-louisiana-parish-49468782

Update now Louisiana is hit by the Harvey Disaster.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: triplemultiplex on August 28, 2017, 08:44:10 PM
What a deluge.
For comparison, where I live in Wisconsin, we get about 34 inches of precipitation per year.  And southeast Texas just got more than that in a couple days.  This flood will make its mark in the geologic record for that area.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: sparker on August 29, 2017, 12:20:30 AM
Interestingly, the projected path of Harvey inland more or less follows the future I-69 alignment at least as far as south-central Arkansas; from there the "eye" is supposed to more or less follow US 79 and then US 49 all the way into the boot of Missouri before petering out.  Guess it will follow the infamous "Dickey Split" for much of its travel!  But seriously -- when this sort of storm goes inland, watch out for swarms of tornadoes!
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: Stephane Dumas on August 29, 2017, 09:39:39 PM
Bridges and roads in Houston are starting to fail under stress. http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFL2N1LF1GL
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: 1995hoo on August 30, 2017, 07:29:13 AM
Our NBC affiliate's weatherman retweeted this:

Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: Perfxion on August 30, 2017, 11:28:41 AM
Knowing how high up these signs are just chilling. Plus facebook videos of areas 10 to 12 feet deep in water....crazy
(https://link.usps.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Harvey-gallery-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: bing101 on August 30, 2017, 02:08:08 PM
http://kfdm.com/news/local/body-found-floating-in-beaumont

Update a local TV station is reporting another dead due to Harvey.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: hm insulators on August 30, 2017, 02:12:49 PM
Best wishes to everybody going through this major disaster. It's going to take years to clean up this mess. This might make Katrina look like an afternoon thundershower.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: wxfree on August 30, 2017, 05:04:10 PM
This is a neat photo.  It isn't as deep as the water above, but it's churned up by the storm's winds.  This is on I-10.

(http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/170830131326-harvey-winnie-texas-after-super-169.jpg)

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/30/us/interstate-10-photo-harvey-trnd/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/30/us/interstate-10-photo-harvey-trnd/index.html)
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: wxfree on August 30, 2017, 05:21:39 PM
Here's the storm total.  The scale tops out at 25 inches, but there are reports of more than 50.  Essentially all of Harris County had more than 25 inches.  Galveston, Chambers, Liberty, Hardin, Jefferson, and Orange Counties are entirely covered in white.  More than half of Jasper County and just about all of Tyler County are, too.  Beyond this, all the way up to Bryan and Lufkin there are 18 inch totals, which in most storms would be extreme.

Interestingly, out over the Gulf, where it wouldn't hurt anyone, the totals are much less.  I know a little about meteorology, and I can't think of any reason why the heaviest rain would be over land.  The outer bands often produce tornadoes over land because of the lower-level winds being impeded, which reduces the Coriolis effect and changes the direction, which introduces shear and can produce horizontal vortex tubes that can be verticalized and stretched by convective currents to form tornadoes.  I've never paid to see if tropical storms usually drop more rain over land.  This one does seem to have stayed stronger over Texas than a landfallen storm usually does because it was feeding off its own rainfall, what Wikipedia calls the "brown ocean effect."  I remember John Hope long ago talking about Danny getting stronger over land as it approached the ocean, and surmising that it was due to this effect.

(http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/stormtotal.png)
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: bing101 on August 30, 2017, 05:45:34 PM
http://kfdm.com/news/nation-world/at-least-21-dead-as-floodwaters-drop-in-houston-harvey-takes-a-second-swipe

21 people are found dead so far from Harvey.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: wxfree on August 30, 2017, 05:47:07 PM
There's a somewhat emotional forecast discussion from the Houston NWS office:

"Today marks the first step in a journey of many, many steps back towards normalcy in our area after the onslaught of Harvey. In the east, some lingering rain from Harvey`s back edge remains this afternoon. Otherwise, we have no rain, and the sun is beginning to break through from west to east. A lack of rain is an infinitesimal, but more than deserved prize for the large number of dedicated first responders, dispatchers, and volunteers who have put in so many hours of hard work under terrible conditions to help the citizens of Southeast Texas."

http://forecast.weather.gov/product.php?site=HGX&issuedby=HGX&product=AFD&format=CI&version=1&glossary=1 (http://forecast.weather.gov/product.php?site=HGX&issuedby=HGX&product=AFD&format=CI&version=1&glossary=1)

The link will work temporarily.  The archive will move progressively back as new discussions are issued.  They're no longer online when they fall off the end of the 50 links.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: 1995hoo on August 31, 2017, 07:32:18 AM
This is a neat photo.  It isn't as deep as the water above, but it's churned up by the storm's winds.  This is on I-10.

(http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/170830131326-harvey-winnie-texas-after-super-169.jpg)

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/30/us/interstate-10-photo-harvey-trnd/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/30/us/interstate-10-photo-harvey-trnd/index.html)

Indeed it is....  :biggrin:

Our NBC affiliate's weatherman retweeted this:

Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: bing101 on August 31, 2017, 08:54:38 AM
http://abc13.com/incident-at-crosby-plant-not-explosion-authorities-say/2355735/

A chemical plant is facing an environmental disaster but that's still being determined here over how much damage Harvey made to the plant.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: wxfree on August 31, 2017, 08:04:46 PM
The Weather Prediction Center (a weird name, since the whole NWS is about weather prediction; I liked the old name, Hydrometeorogical Prediction Center) has compiled a list of rainfall totals and wind records.  The highest rainfall measured was at Cedar Bayou at FM 1942 and was 51.88 inches.  There's quite a list with more than 40.  The highest wind speed was 132 mph near Port Aransas.  (It says "PORT ARANSAS 2 ENE" which means 2 miles east-northeast of town.)

http://www.wpc.ncep.noaa.gov/tropical/tropical_advisories.php?storm=HARVEY&adnum=46&dt=2017083121&status=td (http://www.wpc.ncep.noaa.gov/tropical/tropical_advisories.php?storm=HARVEY&adnum=46&dt=2017083121&status=td)

I'm linking to this address because I think it's permanent.  A couple of other links look like ones that simply go to the latest advisory.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: bing101 on August 31, 2017, 08:10:39 PM
http://wkrn.com/2017/08/31/harvey-to-bring-threat-of-severe-weather-to-middle-tennessee/


Update Tennessee is under Tornado watch due to the remains of Harvey.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: Stephane Dumas on August 31, 2017, 08:33:13 PM
More worrying is the upcoming of another hurricane named Irma. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-31/irma-turning-monster-hurricane-highest-windspeed-forecasts-ive-ever-seen
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: wxfree on August 31, 2017, 11:59:11 PM
This is really neat: aerial photos of the flooding.

https://storms.ngs.noaa.gov/storms/harvey/index.html (https://storms.ngs.noaa.gov/storms/harvey/index.html)
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: Brandon on September 01, 2017, 06:18:04 AM
More worrying is the upcoming of another hurricane named Irma. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-31/irma-turning-monster-hurricane-highest-windspeed-forecasts-ive-ever-seen

Who knows what will happen with Irma.  Many storms have gotten big out there, yet peter out before they get here, or the make a turn and go north.  There's a chance Irma could go into the Caribbean or Gulf, but it's too far out to predict.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: 1995hoo on September 01, 2017, 07:23:58 AM
More worrying is the upcoming of another hurricane named Irma. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-31/irma-turning-monster-hurricane-highest-windspeed-forecasts-ive-ever-seen

As of yesterday morning, there was also another low-pressure system located just off the Yucatán in the Gulf that had the potential to become another tropical system that could hit Texas. Ugh.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: wxfree on September 01, 2017, 05:48:03 PM
This is really neat: aerial photos of the flooding.

https://storms.ngs.noaa.gov/storms/harvey/index.html (https://storms.ngs.noaa.gov/storms/harvey/index.html)

On I-69 just north of the bridge over the West Fork San Jacinto River between BW 8 and SH 99, it looks like the divider is a single piece, and it was bent downstream by the water.  It broke at Sorters McClellan Road where presumably the bridge columns held it in place.  This is the only visible road damage I've found in the new photographs.  I-10 appears to have mud on it at the San Jacinto River.  Even if there's no damage, which may not be visible in the photos, that would need to be cleaned off.  The only major road that's still flooded that I saw is the Sam Houston Tollway just south of I-10 on the west side.  At the time of the photo, 2 lanes on each side of I-10 just below the Addicks were covered, but traffic was moving.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: formulanone on September 01, 2017, 07:49:05 PM
More worrying is the upcoming of another hurricane named Irma. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-31/irma-turning-monster-hurricane-highest-windspeed-forecasts-ive-ever-seen

Who knows what will happen with Irma.  Many storms have gotten big out there, yet peter out before they get here, or the make a turn and go north.  There's a chance Irma could go into the Caribbean or Gulf, but it's too far out to predict.

Since there's been fake images (https://www.click2houston.com/weather/residents-warned-of-fake-irma-that-shows-storm-striking-texas) of the storm's track (only spaghetti models exist 12 days out, but cones do not), here's one from NOAA:

(http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/storm_graphics/AT11/refresh/AL112017_5day_cone_no_line_and_wind+png/205603_5day_cone_no_line_and_wind.png)

That said, I have to go Miami next week. Already had to high-tail it out of San Antonio last week...
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: Desert Man on September 01, 2017, 08:23:02 PM
They call Hurricane/Tropical storm Harvey the worst natural disaster in US history since... Hurricane Katrina breaks the earth levees to flood New Orleans in Aug 2005...or the San Francisco earthquake/fire in Apr 1906 ... and even the great Chicago Fire of Oct 1871. Flooding in the US' 4th largest city, Houston, was epic - 5 days of endless rain in a prone flood basin. And Louisiana wasn't spared, they recall Rita in Sep. 2005 along the Tex-Lou state line, while Houston is vividly reminded of tropical storm Allison in June 2001.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: ilpt4u on September 01, 2017, 09:25:01 PM
They call Hurricane/Tropical storm Harvey the worst natural disaster in US history since... the great Chicago Fire of Oct 1871.
Can one really call the Great Chicago Fire a "natural" disaster? It was a combination of human-animal caused, with a cow kicking over a lantern in a barn (so goes the story, anyway)
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: Brandon on September 02, 2017, 12:45:13 AM
They call Hurricane/Tropical storm Harvey the worst natural disaster in US history since... the great Chicago Fire of Oct 1871.

Can one really call the Great Chicago Fire a "natural" disaster? It was a combination of human-animal caused, with a cow kicking over a lantern in a barn (so goes the story, anyway)

More than likely it was someone's lit cigarette on dry straw or carpet.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: Brandon on September 02, 2017, 12:46:54 AM
They call Hurricane/Tropical storm Harvey the worst natural disaster in US history since... Hurricane Katrina breaks the earth levees to flood New Orleans in Aug 2005....

I take issue with that.  Katrina was a natural disaster...for Mississippi.  In New Orleans, it was a 100% man-made disaster.  If those levees had been properly maintained, the flooding would've been minimal to none.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: bing101 on September 02, 2017, 05:06:06 PM
http://www.wsmv.com/story/36278169/sewage-fecal-bacteria-in-hurricane-harvey-floodwaters


Here is an update fecal bacteria in the Flood water sample of Harvey.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: Brandon on September 02, 2017, 10:20:20 PM
http://www.wsmv.com/story/36278169/sewage-fecal-bacteria-in-hurricane-harvey-floodwaters


Here is an update fecal bacteria in the Flood water sample of Harvey.

Well, no shit.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: 1995hoo on September 02, 2017, 10:22:17 PM
http://www.wsmv.com/story/36278169/sewage-fecal-bacteria-in-hurricane-harvey-floodwaters


Here is an update fecal bacteria in the Flood water sample of Harvey.

Well, no shit.

They probably wish that were so.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: Roadgeekteen on September 08, 2017, 11:33:44 PM
JJ Watt started a fund to raise money for hurricane recovery.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: ET21 on September 11, 2017, 10:20:15 AM
They call Hurricane/Tropical storm Harvey the worst natural disaster in US history since... Hurricane Katrina breaks the earth levees to flood New Orleans in Aug 2005....

I take issue with that.  Katrina was a natural disaster...for Mississippi.  In New Orleans, it was a 100% man-made disaster.  If those levees had been properly maintained, the flooding would've been minimal to none.

Man made indeed when those levee walls were only built up to category 3 standards....
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: Brandon on September 11, 2017, 11:58:45 AM
They call Hurricane/Tropical storm Harvey the worst natural disaster in US history since... Hurricane Katrina breaks the earth levees to flood New Orleans in Aug 2005....

I take issue with that.  Katrina was a natural disaster...for Mississippi.  In New Orleans, it was a 100% man-made disaster.  If those levees had been properly maintained, the flooding would've been minimal to none.

Man made indeed when those levee walls were only built up to category 3 standards....

Katrina was only a Cat 3 at landfall.  Those levees should have handled the storm just fine.  If you want a comparison, look at the photos of the 17th Street Canal.  One side is Orleans Parish, the other is Jefferson Parish.  One side is pretty dry, the other is fully flooded.  The levees on one side were properly maintained, the other wasn't (note the oak trees growing on the levee prior to the storm).
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: Brian556 on September 11, 2017, 12:13:12 PM
Rather than blame the levees, I say that people should not be living in flood prone areas, especially those below sea level. Trying to go against nature is foolish to say the least.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: adventurernumber1 on September 11, 2017, 04:25:58 PM
It is a genuine tragedy to see such devastating hurricanes (Harvey and Irma) occur in such close proximity. Regarding Hurricane Harvey, I truly hope it will not be too long for Houston and elsewhere to recover.  :no:
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: Interstate 69 Fan on November 02, 2017, 10:36:40 AM
They call Hurricane/Tropical storm Harvey the worst natural disaster in US history since... the great Chicago Fire of Oct 1871.
Can one really call the Great Chicago Fire a "natural" disaster? It was a combination of human-animal caused, with a cow kicking over a lantern in a barn (so goes the story, anyway)

Screw that - It IS the worst...
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: Bruce on November 05, 2017, 05:04:23 PM
Hurricane Maria seems to be the worst in terms of human cost. Unknown number of dead Americans, a whole U.S. territory of millions without power, a humanitarian crisis, and an ineffective government response. Not to mention the cleanup and rebuilding costs that can't be carried by a territorial government already on the brink of bankruptcy.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: wxfree on February 01, 2018, 03:13:45 AM
The report on Harvey has been published.  There's a web page (in an annoying setup with overlapping layers) that gives a synopsis.  The most interesting part to me is near the end, where it shows the Colorado River at Wharton rising to a stage of 51 feet and then leveling off.  It didn't level off because of reduced flows, but because the water was so high it poured over into the San Bernard River, which is in a separate watershed and drains into the Gulf independently from the Colorado.  Out-of-banks flooding happens all the time, but out-of-watershed flooding is a new one to me.  The land is relatively flat, which makes this the kind of place where such a thing is possible.  There's a low-resolution photo showing the overflow between the rivers.

The web page is: http://noaa.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=37cc94c4b6944fe39aa296f58636b29f (http://noaa.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=37cc94c4b6944fe39aa296f58636b29f)

The full report is at: https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tcr/AL092017_Harvey.pdf (https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tcr/AL092017_Harvey.pdf)

The official maximum rainfall was 60.58 inches near Nederland.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: triplemultiplex on February 02, 2018, 12:59:40 PM
The most interesting part to me is near the end, where it shows the Colorado River at Wharton rising to a stage of 51 feet and then leveling off.  It didn't level off because of reduced flows, but because the water was so high it poured over into the San Bernard River, which is in a separate watershed and drains into the Gulf independently from the Colorado.  Out-of-banks flooding happens all the time, but out-of-watershed flooding is a new one to me.  The land is relatively flat, which makes this the kind of place where such a thing is possible.  There's a low-resolution photo showing the overflow between the rivers.

Fascinating. The overflow demonstrates how coastal plains develop over time.  As gradient decreases on streams entering an ocean, the amount of sediment they can transport drops accordingly.  So rivers start depositing sediment, the channel fills, and the river diverts left and right.  As every stream along a coast does this, their ever-widening deltas start to overlap, intermingle and shift.  Run this system forward for a while and new land slowly grows into the sea.

It also demonstrates how rivers can switch deltas.  If the gradient on the San Bernard had been steeper than the Colorado to a significant enough extent, erosion would've cut a channel deep enough to permanently divert the Colorado.  (Well, "permanently" being a relative term here.)
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: Brian556 on February 02, 2018, 02:23:54 PM
The most interesting part to me is near the end, where it shows the Colorado River at Wharton rising to a stage of 51 feet and then leveling off.  It didn't level off because of reduced flows, but because the water was so high it poured over into the San Bernard River, which is in a separate watershed and drains into the Gulf independently from the Colorado.  Out-of-banks flooding happens all the time, but out-of-watershed flooding is a new one to me.  The land is relatively flat, which makes this the kind of place where such a thing is possible.  There's a low-resolution photo showing the overflow between the rivers.

Fascinating. The overflow demonstrates how coastal plains develop over time.  As gradient decreases on streams entering an ocean, the amount of sediment they can transport drops accordingly.  So rivers start depositing sediment, the channel fills, and the river diverts left and right.  As every stream along a coast does this, their ever-widening deltas start to overlap, intermingle and shift.  Run this system forward for a while and new land slowly grows into the sea.

It also demonstrates how rivers can switch deltas.  If the gradient on the San Bernard had been steeper than the Colorado to a significant enough extent, erosion would've cut a channel deep enough to permanently divert the Colorado.  (Well, "permanently" being a relative term here.)

An online report states that the Mississippi River would have diverted to the Atchafalaya River by 1990 had the Old River Control Sturcture not been built
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: MNHighwayMan on February 02, 2018, 03:31:59 PM
An online report states that the Mississippi River would have diverted to the Atchafalaya River by 1990 had the Old River Control Sturcture not been built

And, AFAIK, the Mississippi is still trying to. I get the feeling nature will eventually win, it's just a matter of when.
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: Hurricane Rex on February 02, 2018, 04:18:16 PM
An online report states that the Mississippi River would have diverted to the Atchafalaya River by 1990 had the Old River Control Sturcture not been built

And, AFAIK, the Mississippi is still trying to. I get the feeling nature will eventually win, it's just a matter of when.

It's already showing its strain at times. It justs needs the right event (or the next ice age).
Title: Re: Hurricane Harvey
Post by: triplemultiplex on February 02, 2018, 05:01:58 PM
Park a storm like Harvey over Vicksburg after a wet summer, then look out below!

Over time, the delta switch will become more and more inevitable.  By constraining the lower reach of the river between artificial levees, there will be a steady build up of sediment between them.  This means the artificial levees have to be raised higher and higher to contain future floods.  And a higher and higher gradient will exist between the current channel and the Atchafalaya.  This results in more and more scouring below the Old River Structure that will need remediation.

At some date in the future, a flood will breach either the Old River Structure or the earthen levees above or below it.   When it does, the full force of the Mississippi will churn down the Atchafalaya to the Gulf.  We might be able to brute force the river back into its old channel if money is no object, but that will literally take years.   And the whole exercise will be repeated again a few decades later.