Wikipedia has a list of states allowing left on red. However, there's no list of which states require right on red to be made from the rightmost lane and which ones allow/disallow right on red arrow. We could create a table so that people from all over the internet can see the differences by state; we just need to create the table first.
I'm not sure whether each province in Canada is allowed to make their own rules or not.
Quote from: 1 on November 23, 2021, 09:05:06 AM
Wikipedia has a list of states allowing left on red. However, there's no list of which states require right on red to be made from the rightmost lane and which ones allow/disallow right on red arrow. We could create a table so that people from all over the internet can see the differences by state; we just need to create the table first.
I'm not sure whether each province in Canada is allowed to make their own rules or not.
Pretty sure Kentucky allows both right turns on red from turn lanes other than rightmost (unless signage prohibits the movement, because I have seen such signs) and right turns on red arrows.
Kentucky definitely allows left turn on red but only from one one-way street onto another.
Give it a try with the right turn in Mexico and see how long you can go without being pulled over.
Utah allows a right turn on a red light from the rightmost lane or any lane marked as a right-turn lane unless a sign says otherwise.
It is illegal to turn right on a red arrow, though the vast majority of red right arrows come with a "NO TURN ON RED" sign anyway.
Interestingly it is legal to turn left on a red arrow (or a red light) from a one-way to a one-way street. However, as far as I know there are no signalized intersections between two one-way streets in Utah.
Relevant law: Utah Code 41-6a-305 (https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title41/Chapter6A/41-6a-S305.html?v=C41-6a-S305_2015051220150512)
Then New York City it's illegal period to turn right on red.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 23, 2021, 01:51:52 PM
Then New York City it's illegal period to turn right on red.
Same for Montreal. But I don't know about other cities in Quebec. It helps that Montreal is on an island, so it's easy to post the RTOR prohibition at every entrance to the city.
Quote from: oscar on November 23, 2021, 02:00:44 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 23, 2021, 01:51:52 PM
Then New York City it's illegal period to turn right on red.
\
Same for Montreal. But I don't know about other cities in Quebec. It helps that Montreal is on an island, so it's easy to post the RTOR prohibition at every entrance to the city.
Quebec used to have a blanket turn on red prohibition, but it was largely repealed in 2003...now only the Island of Montreal has a blanket prohibition.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 23, 2021, 01:51:52 PM
Then New York City it's illegal period to turn right on red.
Unless a sign authorizes it, that is. As of August 2019, there were 336 such locations–198 in Staten Island, 58 in Brooklyn, 55 in Queens, 19 in the Bronx, and 6 in Manhattan. There were also nine locations where you could go left on red–seven on Cross Bay Boulevard in Broad Channel and two on Adam Clayton Powell Jr. Boulevard in Harlem. Here's one of the ones in Broad Channel. (https://goo.gl/maps/pxrkT56FisurMzmv9)
Virginia prohibits right on a red arrow. The law was changed within the past several years because it used to be permitted.
I'm not aware of any law in Virginia prohibiting turns from other than the curb lane, but in practice it's prohibited because VDOT is religious about posting signage prohibiting said movement and the independent cities, at least the ones I frequent, seem to follow the same principle. The signs' wording varies wildly, though. The unintended side effect of this practice is that when there are multiple right-turn lanes, traffic always stacks up in the far right lane from which right on red is allowed while the other turn lanes sit largely empty.
Ontario allows right turn on red from any right turn lane: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commentary/is-it-legal-to-make-a-right-on-a-red-from-the-leftmost-right-turn-lane/article32972655/ (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commentary/is-it-legal-to-make-a-right-on-a-red-from-the-leftmost-right-turn-lane/article32972655/)
Some municipalities (like Waterloo Region) use no-right-on-red signs when there's multiple right turn lanes, while others I've seen in the GTA don't prohibit it.
There are no red arrows in Ontario, so that part's irrelevant.
For Alabama and Mississippi; unless otherwise posted, any right turn lane may turn right on red.
Alabama (https://www.alea.gov/sites/default/files/inline-files/Driver%27s%20Manual%20Class%20D%20Driver%20Manual%20ALEA%20Dec%202020.pdf) is a little vague on this:
QuoteTraffic Signals / RED:
"Remain stopped until signal turns to green. Right turn, and in certain instances, left turn movements after stopping are permitted."
"You may make a left turn after stopping if you are driving on a one-way street and the street you turn left onto is a one-way street with traffic moving from right to left."
(There's nothing in the manual about red arrows, let alone flashing yellow arrows.)
Florida permits right turn on red
only from the rightmost lane; it's almost always signed as "right lane only" if multiple right turn lanes exist. (I'd learned to drive in Florida, so right on red from any lane other than the rightmost spooks me because I'm not expecting it.) I think Florida law does not permit left turns on red unless it is a flashing red light (ball, arrow) after a stop, or one is neither crossing a line/median nor stop stripe to do so (this is a extremely rare occurrence; basically a handful of U-turns), or on a motorcycle whereby the traffic light sensor is not triggering a protected left turn signal*.
* anecdotal, the word from from a police officer
Nevada: It's covered by NRS484B.307 (https://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-484B.html#NRS484BSec307):
QuoteNRS 484B.307 Traffic controlled by official traffic-control devices exhibiting different colored lights: Rights and duties of vehicular traffic and pedestrians depending upon particular signal displayed; exceptions for person driving motorcycle, moped or trimobile or riding bicycle, electric bicycle or electric scooter; signals placed over individual lanes; certain restrictions upon local authorities; additional penalty for violation committed in pedestrian safety zone.
...
8. Where the signal is a steady red signal alone:
(a) Vehicular traffic facing the signal must stop before entering the crosswalk on the nearest side of the intersection where the sign or pavement marking indicates where the stop must be made, or in the absence of any such crosswalk, sign or marking, then before entering the intersection, and, except as otherwise provided in paragraphs (c) and (d), must remain stopped or standing until the green signal is shown.
...
(c) After complying with the requirement to stop, vehicular traffic facing such a signal and situated on the extreme right of the highway may proceed into the intersection for a right turn only when the intersecting highway is two-directional or one-way to the right, or vehicular traffic facing such a signal and situated on the extreme left of a one-way highway may proceed into the intersection for a left turn only when the intersecting highway is one-way to the left, but must yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and other traffic proceeding as directed by the signal at the intersection.
Bold and italics added; I would interpret "the extreme right of the highway" to mean the right-most lane only.
Special circumstances are covered by signage and signals. Here's one I can think of in Sparks (https://goo.gl/maps/8Jjx5tEepNQ6hgk8A) where a right turn is prohibited by signage and separate signal even with the green allowing traffic to proceed straight through the intersection, in this case because there's a through bike path on the right which is separated from the vehicular traffic lane by an island.
Here in Russia, you can only turn right on red if there's a green arrow displayed alongside the red light (treated as a Yield sign in that case) (https://i.imgur.com/RakJl32.png),
or if there's this sign (https://i.imgur.com/7ol0jgR.png),
which requires vehicles to yield to everybody before they may turn right on red.
Most of the time when there's a green arrow, the movement is non-conflicting. Sometimes though it's used to let vehicles turn right on red.
Quote from: formulanone on November 23, 2021, 03:18:52 PM
....
Florida permits right turn on red only from the rightmost lane; it's almost always signed if multiple turn lanes exist. (I'd learned to drive in Florida, so right on red from any lane other than the rightmost spooks me because I'm not expecting it.) I think Florida law does not permit left turns on red ....
Florida appears to allow left on red from a one-way to another one-way. (https://m.flsenate.gov/Statutes/316.075)
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 23, 2021, 04:14:19 PM
Quote from: formulanone on November 23, 2021, 03:18:52 PM
....
Florida permits right turn on red only from the rightmost lane; it's almost always signed if multiple turn lanes exist. (I'd learned to drive in Florida, so right on red from any lane other than the rightmost spooks me because I'm not expecting it.) I think Florida law does not permit left turns on red ....
Florida appears to allow left on red from a one-way to another one-way. (https://m.flsenate.gov/Statutes/316.075)
Kind of figured that was 50-state legal, except where exceptions posted. I'll amend the "only" out.
A Michigan example. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5178352,-83.1868342,3a,49.5y,100.5h,77.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sig8xyIlt0iP_P7vEit7WsQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
I'm not sure if NTOR is because of the 2 turning lanes, or because Woodward is at an angle and you have to crane your neck around to see oncoming traffic.
For Indiana, the law allows motorists to make a right turn after stopping at a red light unless there's a sign indicating the turn is prohibited.
Quote from: formulanone on November 23, 2021, 04:23:02 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 23, 2021, 04:14:19 PM
Quote from: formulanone on November 23, 2021, 03:18:52 PM
....
Florida permits right turn on red only from the rightmost lane; it's almost always signed if multiple turn lanes exist. (I'd learned to drive in Florida, so right on red from any lane other than the rightmost spooks me because I'm not expecting it.) I think Florida law does not permit left turns on red ....
Florida appears to allow left on red from a one-way to another one-way. (https://m.flsenate.gov/Statutes/316.075)
Kind of figured that was 50-state legal, except where exceptions posted. I'll amend the "only" out.
It's not legal in all states. I know North Carolina bans it (which frustrated me big time when I lived in Durham). DC doesn't allow it either, though of course DC is not a state.
In New York it helps to know that NYC uses strictly 1950s era mast arms(and old analog click box controllers still, but another story) and the rest of the state uses span wire. So if you are in question look at the signal wires or mast arms along city borders, hence Nassau- Queens and Westchester- Bronx.
The best place to see the difference is where US 1 enters NYC, as you have a NYC mast arm and a neighbor's span wire within eyesight of each other. So you know which one is blanketed and which one isn't. Even on NY 27 where NYCs first signal west of Valley Stream, NY and Valley Stream's first signal east of NYC that are over a mile apart, the former has yellow heads on mast arms while the latter is dark green heads on span wiring to denote you crossed the city line between the two laws.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 24, 2021, 12:49:54 AM
In New York it helps to know that NYC uses strictly 1950s era mast arms(and old analog click box controllers still, but another story) and the rest of the state uses span wire. So if you are in question look at the signal wires or mast arms along city borders, hence Nassau- Queens and Westchester- Bronx.
The best place to see the difference is where US 1 enters NYC, as you have a NYC mast arm and a neighbor's span wire within eyesight of each other. So you know which one is blanketed and which one isn't. Even on NY 27 where NYCs first signal west of Valley Stream, NY and Valley Stream's first signal east of NYC that are over a mile apart, the former has yellow heads on mast arms while the latter is dark green heads on span wiring to denote you crossed the city line between the two laws.
It's not that simple. Lots of mast arms upstate, despite use of span wire.
Quote from: Rothman on November 24, 2021, 06:50:46 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 24, 2021, 12:49:54 AM
In New York it helps to know that NYC uses strictly 1950s era mast arms(and old analog click box controllers still, but another story) and the rest of the state uses span wire. So if you are in question look at the signal wires or mast arms along city borders, hence Nassau- Queens and Westchester- Bronx.
The best place to see the difference is where US 1 enters NYC, as you have a NYC mast arm and a neighbor's span wire within eyesight of each other. So you know which one is blanketed and which one isn't. Even on NY 27 where NYCs first signal west of Valley Stream, NY and Valley Stream's first signal east of NYC that are over a mile apart, the former has yellow heads on mast arms while the latter is dark green heads on span wiring to denote you crossed the city line between the two laws.
It's not that simple. Lots of mast arms upstate, despite use of span wire.
Not 1950 vintage era mast arms they don't. Even Yonkers has mast arms, but not the same as the Bronx down the street.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 24, 2021, 08:15:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on November 24, 2021, 06:50:46 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 24, 2021, 12:49:54 AM
In New York it helps to know that NYC uses strictly 1950s era mast arms(and old analog click box controllers still, but another story) and the rest of the state uses span wire. So if you are in question look at the signal wires or mast arms along city borders, hence Nassau- Queens and Westchester- Bronx.
The best place to see the difference is where US 1 enters NYC, as you have a NYC mast arm and a neighbor's span wire within eyesight of each other. So you know which one is blanketed and which one isn't. Even on NY 27 where NYCs first signal west of Valley Stream, NY and Valley Stream's first signal east of NYC that are over a mile apart, the former has yellow heads on mast arms while the latter is dark green heads on span wiring to denote you crossed the city line between the two laws.
It's not that simple. Lots of mast arms upstate, despite use of span wire.
Not 1950 vintage era mast arms they don't. Even Yonkers has mast arms, but not the same as the Bronx down the street.
315 W 1st St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EDeFLKSvyE9iuvvx7
I do see too many who think "right on red" means just flying through turn, not stopping or watching out for cars with green light! :pan:
But, parts of Chicago city have "No turn... 7am-7pm", which is somewhat generous.
Quote from: Rothman on November 24, 2021, 08:25:25 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 24, 2021, 08:15:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on November 24, 2021, 06:50:46 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 24, 2021, 12:49:54 AM
In New York it helps to know that NYC uses strictly 1950s era mast arms(and old analog click box controllers still, but another story) and the rest of the state uses span wire. So if you are in question look at the signal wires or mast arms along city borders, hence Nassau- Queens and Westchester- Bronx.
The best place to see the difference is where US 1 enters NYC, as you have a NYC mast arm and a neighbor's span wire within eyesight of each other. So you know which one is blanketed and which one isn't. Even on NY 27 where NYCs first signal west of Valley Stream, NY and Valley Stream's first signal east of NYC that are over a mile apart, the former has yellow heads on mast arms while the latter is dark green heads on span wiring to denote you crossed the city line between the two laws.
It's not that simple. Lots of mast arms upstate, despite use of span wire.
Not 1950 vintage era mast arms they don't. Even Yonkers has mast arms, but not the same as the Bronx down the street.
315 W 1st St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EDeFLKSvyE9iuvvx7
That's clearly different from the NYC design which uses guy wires and a curved mast arm, this is a truss arm that looks more like something you'd see in NJ.
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on November 24, 2021, 02:34:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 24, 2021, 08:25:25 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 24, 2021, 08:15:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on November 24, 2021, 06:50:46 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 24, 2021, 12:49:54 AM
In New York it helps to know that NYC uses strictly 1950s era mast arms(and old analog click box controllers still, but another story) and the rest of the state uses span wire. So if you are in question look at the signal wires or mast arms along city borders, hence Nassau- Queens and Westchester- Bronx.
The best place to see the difference is where US 1 enters NYC, as you have a NYC mast arm and a neighbor's span wire within eyesight of each other. So you know which one is blanketed and which one isn't. Even on NY 27 where NYCs first signal west of Valley Stream, NY and Valley Stream's first signal east of NYC that are over a mile apart, the former has yellow heads on mast arms while the latter is dark green heads on span wiring to denote you crossed the city line between the two laws.
It's not that simple. Lots of mast arms upstate, despite use of span wire.
Not 1950 vintage era mast arms they don't. Even Yonkers has mast arms, but not the same as the Bronx down the street.
315 W 1st St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EDeFLKSvyE9iuvvx7
That's clearly different from the NYC design which uses guy wires and a curved mast arm, this is a truss arm that looks more like something you'd see in NJ.
Good for Roadgeeks, not for the traveling public.
Quote from: US20IL64 on November 24, 2021, 10:34:27 AM
I do see too many who think "right on red" means just flying through turn, not stopping or watching out for cars with green light! :pan:
But, parts of Chicago city have "No turn... 7am-7pm", which is somewhat generous.
People refusing to stop, or to yield to other traffic, is a serious problem around here. People think they're entitled to go right on red regardless of whether there is other traffic, people turning left from the other direction with a green arrow, etc. The fundamental principle is that you still have a
red light, so the presumption is that you must stop and you cannot go unless and until the way is clear. We have some intersections here, but not all that many, with the 7 AM to 7 PM restriction you note. I feel like that might need to be more common to try to rein in some of the bad behavior, though no doubt the restriction would be widely ignored. Then you have some areas where they almost need to have the restriction be during evening hours.
Quote from: 7/8 on November 23, 2021, 02:48:06 PM
There are no red arrows in Ontario, so that part's irrelevant.
We do have some intersections with protected rights, which is equivalent to red arrows, though somewhat rare.
Here's a new one at Bloor and Parkside
(https://i.imgur.com/mr3r28z.png)
Quote from: Rothman on November 24, 2021, 02:40:05 PM
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on November 24, 2021, 02:34:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 24, 2021, 08:25:25 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 24, 2021, 08:15:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on November 24, 2021, 06:50:46 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 24, 2021, 12:49:54 AM
In New York it helps to know that NYC uses strictly 1950s era mast arms(and old analog click box controllers still, but another story) and the rest of the state uses span wire. So if you are in question look at the signal wires or mast arms along city borders, hence Nassau- Queens and Westchester- Bronx.
The best place to see the difference is where US 1 enters NYC, as you have a NYC mast arm and a neighbor's span wire within eyesight of each other. So you know which one is blanketed and which one isn't. Even on NY 27 where NYCs first signal west of Valley Stream, NY and Valley Stream's first signal east of NYC that are over a mile apart, the former has yellow heads on mast arms while the latter is dark green heads on span wiring to denote you crossed the city line between the two laws.
It's not that simple. Lots of mast arms upstate, despite use of span wire.
Not 1950 vintage era mast arms they don't. Even Yonkers has mast arms, but not the same as the Bronx down the street.
315 W 1st St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EDeFLKSvyE9iuvvx7
That's clearly different from the NYC design which uses guy wires and a curved mast arm, this is a truss arm that looks more like something you'd see in NJ.
Good for Roadgeeks, not for the traveling public.
Agreed. I've complained on this forum before, but giving NYC a blanket restriction on RTOR was wrong. Each intersection should be evaluated based on its individual circumstances and then signs need to be clearly placed saying "no turn on red" at that intersection.
Now, of course, there are plenty of pedestrians in NYC, so for many intersections it makes sense in the name of pedestrian safety to have a NTOR restrction in places like Manhattan, most of Brooklyn, and significant portions of Queens and Bronx. On the other hand, most intersections in the outer parts of the outer boroughs, eastern Bronx, eastern Queens, and basically all of SI outside of St George. Most signalized T intersections woule probably also allow RTOR since the drivers making the right only need to be concerned with pedestrians and not both pedestrians and cross traffic, since there is no cross traffic.
Quote from: andrepoiy on November 24, 2021, 08:34:38 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on November 23, 2021, 02:48:06 PM
There are no red arrows in Ontario, so that part's irrelevant.
We do have some intersections with protected rights, which is equivalent to red arrows, though somewhat rare.
Here's a new one at Bloor and Parkside
(https://i.imgur.com/mr3r28z.png)
That's true, though I'd argue the NROR sign still makes the original question irrelevant.
However, on street view, I noticed at 8 and 24 in Cambridge, westbound on 8 doesn't have the NROR sign beside the right turn signal. Link (https://maps.app.goo.gl/3bZfy5u56gdyMG2z7). I assume without the sign, you can turn right on red, which would be our equivalent of a right on red arrow.
EDIT: Now I'm doubting myself lol. With the stop bar being so far back (with a "stop here on red" sign too), I feel like I'd probably not do the right on red. I wonder why they wouldn't just include a NROR sign? I'm honestly not sure if it's allowed or not.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 23, 2021, 02:30:54 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 23, 2021, 01:51:52 PM
Then New York City it's illegal period to turn right on red.
Unless a sign authorizes it, that is. As of August 2019, there were 336 such locations–198 in Staten Island, 58 in Brooklyn, 55 in Queens, 19 in the Bronx, and 6 in Manhattan. There were also nine locations where you could go left on red–seven on Cross Bay Boulevard in Broad Channel and two on Adam Clayton Powell Jr. Boulevard in Harlem. Here's one of the ones in Broad Channel. (https://goo.gl/maps/pxrkT56FisurMzmv9)
....
I was curious why left on red is permitted at the location seen above and several other like it in Broad Channel, seeing as how you're going left from a two-way street. It seems the reason is that Cross Bay Boulevard used to have six lanes, but was narrowed to four lanes to allow for turn lanes. But turn arrows were not installed when they did that because the electrical system in that part of Queens was old and couldn't handle the increased load, so lefts on red were allowed as a compromise to reduce wait time. The traffic is relatively low in that area anyway.
Quote from: mrsman on November 25, 2021, 10:03:37 AM
Agreed. I've complained on this forum before, but giving NYC a blanket restriction on RTOR was wrong. Each intersection should be evaluated based on its individual circumstances and then signs need to be clearly placed saying "no turn on red" at that intersection.
Now, of course, there are plenty of pedestrians in NYC, so for many intersections it makes sense in the name of pedestrian safety to have a NTOR restrction in places like Manhattan, most of Brooklyn, and significant portions of Queens and Bronx. On the other hand, most intersections in the outer parts of the outer boroughs, eastern Bronx, eastern Queens, and basically all of SI outside of St George. Most signalized T intersections woule probably also allow RTOR since the drivers making the right only need to be concerned with pedestrians and not both pedestrians and cross traffic, since there is no cross traffic.
Coming from a place where it's not allowed at all, and so the very concept of going through a red light is weird to me, I think the German approach of it being banned unless a sign says otherwise is the better approach. If we were to introduce it here, that would be my preferred approach, although I still don't like the idea of it. Indeed, a few years back, Lithuania overhauled its traffic signal design, moving away from the standard inherited by the Soviet Union and pretty much imported German standards wholesale, including the sign allowing right on red. I think they've since gotten rid of it, or at least isn't allowing new instances of it, due to unfavourable accident records at these locations.
Sure. Countries are sovereign and can come up with their own laws. A country outside of the US can decide to blanket prohibit RTOR, if they desire. And in much of Europe and/or Asia, the cities are far more dense than in the US so perhaps a blanket prohibition makes sense.
I am against the NYC exception in particular since it is different from the default rule across the rest of US, even the rest of New York State.
NYC can ban RTOR if they want, just put up a sign at each relevant intersection and do an appropriate traffic study.
Washington DC and San Francisco are exploring a wide ranging increase of NTOR. But they are putting up signs.
https://dc.curbed.com/2019/1/3/18167368/dc-right-turns-vision-zero-traffic-safety
https://sfist.com/2019/10/19/one-san-franciscans-no-turn-on-red-petition-hopes-to-help-bolster-pedestrian-safety/
Nearly every intersection in Center City Philadelphia prohibit ROTR. Each affected intersection has a sign. Example:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9467459,-75.1625862,3a,37.5y,320.12h,94.73t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sPAPdnZqXNq8Qsxb2lltW3w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DPAPdnZqXNq8Qsxb2lltW3w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D223.05751%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
Yet there are plenty of intersections in NYC that do not have singificant pedestrian crossing and are very far away from Times Square and Wall Street, yet RTOR is prohibited. And to put salt on the wounds, the signals are on pure timers, meaning the main street will face a red light even when there is no cross traffic or cross pedestrians, and no one can move at all.
Here is one in particular
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.710466,-73.8397285,3a,75y,133.17h,85.45t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sr_xcEc3McrKmBwQ4kTGHCA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dr_xcEc3McrKmBwQ4kTGHCA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D52.335815%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
I do visit the area quite frequently as I have family nearby. And I can tell you the signal goes red on Union Turnpike very frequently, even without a pedestrian in sight. I can tell you that while many RTOR do have a danger element involved where a driver will have to keep track of cross traffic and cross traffic pedestrians to make a safe turn, given that this is a T intersection, there is no cross traffic to worry about.
I feel like the best approach to turn-on-red in NYC is this:
Blanket ban on turn on red throughout Manhattan. Put up a sign at every entrance to Manhattan (there's only 22, if I'm counting right). Put up "RTOR allowed after stop" signs at any intersections where that's determined to be safe. In the other four boroughs plus Marble Hill, use the same system the rest of NY and the US use - put up NTOR signs at any intersections with lots of pedestrians or sightline conflicts or whatever, and allow turn on red everywhere else.
Unless you're very familiar with city boundaries, it's rather difficult to know where NYC ends and Westchester or Nassau County begins. It's easy to know if you're on Manhattan Island.
In Michigan, you may turn left on red onto a one-way road from either a one-way or two-way road, unless signed otherwise. On a boulevard left turn where you are making a U-turn onto the carriageway in the opposite direction (such as for a Michigan Left) the left turn on red is allowed unless signed otherwise, but proceeding on red across the carriageway to access another road or driveway is not allowed.
I don't see that Michigan law addresses the issue of multiple turn lanes, so it appears that right turns on red from other than the rightmost lane and left turns on red onto a one-way road from other than the leftmost lane are allowed, unless signed otherwise.
Quote from: gonealookin on November 23, 2021, 03:30:26 PM
Nevada: It's covered by NRS484B.307 (https://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-484B.html#NRS484BSec307):
QuoteNRS 484B.307 Traffic controlled by official traffic-control devices exhibiting different colored lights: Rights and duties of vehicular traffic and pedestrians depending upon particular signal displayed; exceptions for person driving motorcycle, moped or trimobile or riding bicycle, electric bicycle or electric scooter; signals placed over individual lanes; certain restrictions upon local authorities; additional penalty for violation committed in pedestrian safety zone.
...
8. Where the signal is a steady red signal alone:
(a) Vehicular traffic facing the signal must stop before entering the crosswalk on the nearest side of the intersection where the sign or pavement marking indicates where the stop must be made, or in the absence of any such crosswalk, sign or marking, then before entering the intersection, and, except as otherwise provided in paragraphs (c) and (d), must remain stopped or standing until the green signal is shown.
...
(c) After complying with the requirement to stop, vehicular traffic facing such a signal and situated on the extreme right of the highway may proceed into the intersection for a right turn only when the intersecting highway is two-directional or one-way to the right, or vehicular traffic facing such a signal and situated on the extreme left of a one-way highway may proceed into the intersection for a left turn only when the intersecting highway is one-way to the left, but must yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and other traffic proceeding as directed by the signal at the intersection.
Bold and italics added; I would interpret "the extreme right of the highway" to mean the right-most lane only.
Special circumstances are covered by signage and signals. Here's one I can think of in Sparks (https://goo.gl/maps/8Jjx5tEepNQ6hgk8A) where a right turn is prohibited by signage and separate signal even with the green allowing traffic to proceed straight through the intersection, in this case because there's a through bike path on the right which is separated from the vehicular traffic lane by an island.
California, by contrast, allows right from anywhere safe to anywhere safe and the same with left. So, an option for "one lane only" would be a useful distinction.
I believe PA allows right on red arrows unless prohibited by sign. I have seen one or two signs banning right on red except from curb lane (mostly in Philly) but right on red is generally prohibited by sign when there are multiple right turn lanes. Left turns between one-way streets are also permitted.
This one fall under misuse of RTOR: A couple of days ago, I saw a car get out of the right lane of the interior of a local DDI and pass three cars in the berm (ergo, the median). They were trying to run the red light to exit the DDI and fortunately never got a chance before the light turned green. They entered a gas station just past the DDI. The only thing I could figure was that they thought that everyone could move forward using the right-turn-on-red rule, even though the DDI is very clearly a cross-street movement.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 07, 2021, 10:22:03 AM
This one fall under misuse of RTOR: A couple of days ago, I saw a car get out of the right lane of the interior of a local DDI and pass three cars in the berm (ergo, the median). They were trying to run the red light to exit the DDI and fortunately never got a chance before the light turned green. They entered a gas station just past the DDI. The only thing I could figure was that they thought that everyone could move forward using the right-turn-on-red rule, even though the DDI is very clearly a cross-street movement.
Or they had an emergency and wanted to get to the gas station. That would at least justify trying to get past traffic in the median.
WA, OR, and BC are super easy: turns on red are totally OK, no matter how many turn lanes, use of arrow, etc. The only prohibition is left onto a two-way street. Everything else is OK.
If we could start to culminate our findings, I could put together an Excel spreadsheet and then theoretically map out the rules using a GIS program.
Quote from: jakeroot on December 09, 2021, 12:21:46 PM
WA, OR, and BC are super easy: turns on red are totally OK, no matter how many turn lanes, use of arrow, etc. The only prohibition is left onto a two-way street. Everything else is OK.
If we could start to culminate our findings, I could put together an Excel spreadsheet and then theoretically map out the rules using a GIS program.
That would be great. A useful guide and visual. Sort of like this map on wikipedia for left turns on red:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_on_red#/media/File:Legality_of_left_turn_on_red_in_USA.svg
[Of course, IMO, it would be far easier to have one rule for the whole country with exceptions signed at specific intersections. Part of the difficulty is that in many states they don't clearly define in their laws what to do about a red right arrow. So glad that people on this thread are doing the research to try to put it all together.]
Quote from: mrsman on December 22, 2021, 09:16:11 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 09, 2021, 12:21:46 PM
WA, OR, and BC are super easy: turns on red are totally OK, no matter how many turn lanes, use of arrow, etc. The only prohibition is left onto a two-way street. Everything else is OK.
If we could start to culminate our findings, I could put together an Excel spreadsheet and then theoretically map out the rules using a GIS program.
That would be great. A useful guide and visual. Sort of like this map on wikipedia for left turns on red:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_on_red#/media/File:Legality_of_left_turn_on_red_in_USA.svg
[Of course, IMO, it would be far easier to have one rule for the whole country with exceptions signed at specific intersections. Part of the difficulty is that in many states they don't clearly define in their laws what to do about a red right arrow. So glad that people on this thread are doing the research to try to put it all together.]
This is true of many state laws! And then penalties for ignoring those laws.
As for clearly defining red arrows, sometimes people are looking for more than what's needed. If the law says that you must stop at a red light, but then may turn right on red, that is the rule. If they don't carve out an exception for a red arrow, then it just goes back to the basic law regarding the red light.
There are the laws about turning on red in the 6 New England States:
Connecticut (not sure about - state law states no exception for red arrow) does allows right turn on red arrow (Sec 14-299-3 (https://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/chap_249.htm#:~:text=(3)%20Red%20alone,enter%20the%20roadway.)), but does not allow left turn on circular red or red arrow at all.
Maine does not allow right turns on red arrow at all (Title 29-A, §2057, 1C-1 (https://legislature.maine.gov/statutes/29-A/title29-Asec2057.html#:~:text=C%2D1.%20A%20red%20light%2C%20if%20a%20steady%20arrow%2C%20means%20the%20operator%20may%20not%20enter%20the%20intersection%20to%20make%20the%20movement%20indicated%20by%20that%20arrow.%20%C2%A0%20%5BPL%202003%2C%20c.%20452%2C%20Pt.%20Q%2C%20%C2%A737%20(NEW)%3B%20PL%202003%2C%20c.%20452%2C%20Pt.%20X%2C%20%C2%A72%20(AFF).%5D)), and does not allow left turn on circular red or red arrow at all.
Massachusetts does allows right turn on red arrow (MGL Part I, Title XIV, Chapter 89, Section 8 (https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXIV/Chapter89/Section8#:~:text=vehicular%20traffic%20is,giving%20notice%20thereof.)), and allows left on circular red or red arrow if both the originating and destination roads are one way.
New Hampshire does allows right turn on red arrow (NH RSA 265:10, 3-f (http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/xxi/265/265-10.htm#:~:text=(f)%20Except%20when,using%20the%20intersection.)), but does not allow left turn on circular red or red arrow at all.
Rhode Island does not allows right turns on red arrow at all (R.I. Gen. Laws § 31-13-6, 3-A-2 (http://webserver.rilegislature.gov//Statutes/TITLE31/31-13/31-13-6.htm#:~:text=(ii)%20Vehicular%20traffic,arrow%20is%20displayed.)), and does not allow left turn on circular red or red arrow at all.
Vermont does not allow right turns on red arrow unless signed with a R10-17a sign (23 V.S.A 1022 3-B (https://legislature.vermont.gov/statutes/section/23/013/01022#:~:text=(B)%20Except%20when,permits%20this%20movement.)), but allows left on circular red ONLY if both the originating and destination roads are one way.
Not sure when this change was made, but the US-15/501 interchange with NC-54 (Raleigh Road) in Chapel Hill now sports a double right turn lane on the cloverleaf from NC-54 westbound onto Fordham Boulevard (US-15/501 southbound, which then mulitplexes with NC-54 westbound). It has been a while since I used that interchange. Yesterday, I pulled into the left turn lane to pass a Chapel Hill Transit bus and was confronted with an RTOR situation. That was the first time I've ever made an RTOR onto the fast lane of an expressway (you can debate whether that section of Fordham is no longer an expressway). The posted speed limit is only 45MPH, but everybody was pushing 60MPH in both lanes. Might be an interesting topic for a new thread.