Hampton Roads, Va. area toll crossings and toll roads

[froggie]

Those who live along 64 in Norfolk have long opposed significant (I.e. 8+ lane) widening because of the property impacts anything above 6 lanes would bring to their neighborhoods (including high-dollar Willoughby Spit).  A wider cross-section would also incur significant wetland and coastline impacts.  Both of these are likely reasons why the alternatives that include HRBT widening call for 6 lanes instead of 8+.

[cpzilliacus]

Those who live along 64 in Norfolk have long opposed significant (I.e. 8+ lane) widening because of the property impacts anything above 6 lanes would bring to their neighborhoods (including high-dollar Willoughby Spit).  A wider cross-section would also incur significant wetland and coastline impacts.  Both of these are likely reasons why the alternatives that include HRBT widening call for 6 lanes instead of 8+.

No opposition on the Hampton side of the crossing?

[froggie]

Don't know.  Lived in Norfolk so was more aware of what was happening on the Southside...

[amroad17]

Those who live along 64 in Norfolk have long opposed significant (I.e. 8+ lane) widening because of the property impacts anything above 6 lanes would bring to their neighborhoods (including high-dollar Willoughby Spit).  A wider cross-section would also incur significant wetland and coastline impacts.  Both of these are likely reasons why the alternatives that include HRBT widening call for 6 lanes instead of 8+.

No opposition on the Hampton side of the crossing?

It always seemed like, "Okay VaDOT, tell us what you are planning on doing and we will just go with it."

[froggie]

Not necessarily.  Hampton was very much on-record as opposing the Third Crossing/Patriot's Crossing connector between I-564 and the MMBT.  They supported HRBT widening instead.  How much HRBT widening, I'm not sure.  I know at the time of the Third/Patriot's Crossing studies that the HRBT alternative was for 8 lanes vice 6.

[plain]

Trust me... EVERYONE in Hampton Roads wants the HRBT expanded to at least double it's current capacity.. realistically it's going to be extremely difficult to do that without a price tag of well over $1b. And that price tag is going to be extremely difficult without putting tolls back on it. So if making it a 6 lane crossing instead of an 8 lane is feasible then in this case something is definitely better than nothing. Plus it will cost even more to expand the approaches... while the existing 6 lane approaches exist within a mile of the HRBT on the Hampton side, it is still 6 miles away on the Norfolk side. That fact too must be taken into account.

[74/171FAN]

I doubt this is very newsworthy since the US Army Corps of Engineers and the Navy will not approve any Third Crossing Alternatives such as C and D.

Daily Press:  Newport News mayor submits 'hybrid model' for water-crossing project 

It will not be considered as stated.  See the proposed hybrids as stated in the article below:

Newport News mayor's proposed hybrid: Alternative D, but without the new roadway along the east side of Craney Island to Route 164 in Portsmouth and without widening a portion of Route 164. Includes transit-only lanes.

Norfolk city manager's proposed hybrid: Same as Newport News mayor's model, but without widening the MMMBT, and without widening I-64 and I-664 on the Peninsula side. Norfolk's first choice is Alternative D, however.

[cpzilliacus]

I doubt this is very newsworthy since the US Army Corps of Engineers and the Navy will not approve any Third Crossing Alternatives such as C and D.

Daily Press:  Newport News mayor submits 'hybrid model' for water-crossing project 

Link was broken.  Fixed above.

It will not be considered as stated.  See the proposed hybrids as stated in the article below:

Newport News mayor's proposed hybrid: Alternative D, but without the new roadway along the east side of Craney Island to Route 164 in Portsmouth and without widening a portion of Route 164. Includes transit-only lanes.

Norfolk city manager's proposed hybrid: Same as Newport News mayor's model, but without widening the MMMBT, and without widening I-64 and I-664 on the Peninsula side. Norfolk's first choice is Alternative D, however.

Is there demand for transit-only lanes? I am skeptical. 

IMO, much better to price the crossings so they run at free-flow (perhaps with free or discounted passage for HOV-3), and if there is demand for transit, run the transit in the free-flowing mixed-traffic lanes.

[froggie]

Is there demand for transit-only lanes? I am skeptical.

Presently, not really.  But in the future, that would be a different story.  Given the huge expense involved with adding regular lanes to the bridge tunnels, they will at some point have to consider a dedicated transit lane to manage higher demand.  Better to add such a lane when they're considering a tunnel expansion now, since it very well may be impossible to add anything else down the road.

Regarding pricing the crossings...that would be severely opposed, if the reaction to re-instituting tolls at the Downtown and the Midtown Tunnels is any indication.  I do believe it would be legal under Federal law....Virginia appears to have a slot under the Value Pricing Pilot Program.  But they'd have some serious public-relation and acceptance hurdles to jump before doing so at the HRBT or Monitor-Merrimac...

[cpzilliacus]

Is there demand for transit-only lanes? I am skeptical.

Presently, not really.  But in the future, that would be a different story.  Given the huge expense involved with adding regular lanes to the bridge tunnels, they will at some point have to consider a dedicated transit lane to manage higher demand.  Better to add such a lane when they're considering a tunnel expansion now, since it very well may be impossible to add anything else down the road.

Add them as priced lanes.  I do not think we should be  adding transit-only or HOV-only  links to the highway network any longer, with exceptions for places like New York City and maybe some other very large urban areas (Wilshire Boulevard in Los Angeles being an example).

I am not convinced that the demand for transit will ever arrive in an area like Hampton Roads, even though there are a lot of federal employees there that can be encouraged to take the a bus more than other workers.

Regarding pricing the crossings...that would be severely opposed, if the reaction to re-instituting tolls at the Downtown and the Midtown Tunnels is any indication.  I do believe it would be legal under Federal law....Virginia appears to have a slot under the Value Pricing Pilot Program.  But they'd have some serious public-relation and acceptance hurdles to jump before doing so at the HRBT or Monitor-Merrimac...

Pricing would absolutely need approval by the federal government.  The slot that Virginia has was for tolling I-95, but that's not going to happen. 

Adding new capacity across Hampton Roads is going to be extremely expensive, and it is pretty  clear that the powers-that-be in Richmond are not interested in funding projects like this out of state motor fuel taxes. So they have a choice of no added capacity, or tolled added capacity.

Nothing is free.

[froggie]

I am not convinced that the demand for transit will ever arrive in an area like Hampton Roads, even though there are a lot of federal employees there that can be encouraged to take the a bus more than other workers.

However, without giving those buses a dedicated lane, they'll be stuck in the same congestion as everyone else.

The slot that Virginia has was for tolling I-95, but that's not going to happen.

That's a different pilot tolling program than the one I was referring to.  Look up the Value Pricing Pilot Program.

[cpzilliacus]

I am not convinced that the demand for transit will ever arrive in an area like Hampton Roads, even though there are a lot of federal employees there that can be encouraged to take the a bus more than other workers.

However, without giving those buses a dedicated lane, they'll be stuck in the same congestion as everyone else.

I vigorously disagree.  Price the lane(s) correctly so they provide at least level-of-service D (less than about 1,800 or 1,900 vehicles per lane per hour), and allow any bus or HOV-3 to use it at no charge, and collect a toll from everyone else.  It may  be a bad idea to allow large trucks in such  lanes, especially  tunnels with steep climbing  lanes, but that's for the engineers and elected officials to work out.

The slot that Virginia has was for tolling I-95, but that's not going to happen.

That's a different pilot tolling program than the one I was referring to.  Look up the Value Pricing Pilot Program.

I take your word on that.  Bottom line is if it is not tolled, then it's not happening, even now with more state motor fuel tax revenue flowing into VDOT.

[cpzilliacus]

Virginian Pilot/PilotOnline.com: Midtown Tunnel backups are a thing of the past and commuters are very happy

The Lord God Almighty is getting a lot of credit for traffic improvements at the Midtown Tunnel.

At least that's what Twitter users are saying, after Elizabeth River Crossings opened up two eastbound lanes of traffic for the first time earlier this month.

For months, cars have snaked all the way back to Churchland during morning rush hour. Then ERC announced it would open both lanes of the tunnel during morning rush hour.

If there aren't any crashes, breakdowns or bad weather, the daily 1½-to-2-mile backups have been eliminated.

[amroad17]

"All the way to Churchland"?  That is close to three to four miles away--unless the other side of the West Norfolk Bridge is considered Churchland.  That's West Norfolk up to Coast Guard Blvd.  After that is Churchland.

[froggie]

Back when I was still stationed in the area, I saw backups as far back as Cedar Ln, so Churchland (basically the next exit west) is not that far of a stretch...

[74/171FAN]

Daily Press: The I-64 reversible HOV lanes in Norfolk are to officially become HOT Lanes next year.

[74/171FAN]

The Hampton Roads Transportation Planning Organization (HRTPO) recommends Alternative A.

[cpzilliacus]

The Hampton Roads Transportation Planning Organization (HRTPO) recommends Alternative A.

I have not been able to figure out what two more lanes will do.

Is it a new reversible tube (like the HOV (soon HOV/Toll) lanes on I-64 and I-564)?

Or does it add a lane each way with some sort of barrier to prevent head-on crashes?

I probably have not dug through the stuff that's online deep enough.  Enlightenment appreciated.

[74/171FAN]

As far as Alternative A, how would the six lanes work?  I know that the proposed new tunnel will not have two-way traffic.  Would it be set up so four lanes go one way and two go the other and be switched later that day?  Or will it be set up so that the left-most lane in each direction uses the new tunnel (if it is built between the current ones) with a Jersey barrier separating the lanes?  Or if a new tunnel is built either east or west (HRBT actually is north/south) of the current ones, will one of the original tubes be used in the situation described above?

See page 16 from Chapter 2 of the DEIS.  (this is based on Alt. A)

Basically, the existing tunnels would become two tubes for I-64 WB (the existing WB HRBT would become one lane while the EB HRBT would be two WB lanes).  A new third tube with 3 lanes would be built for I-64 EB.   

CPZ See above,  I quoted myself from earlier in the thread.  No managed/tolled reversible lanes are in the plans.

EDIT: Daily Press states that HOT Lanes could be a part of this.

[cpzilliacus]

CPZ See above,  I quoted myself from earlier in the thread.  No managed/tolled reversible lanes are in the plans.

EDIT: Daily Press states that HOT Lanes could be a part of this.

Thanks.  I had not grasped (or maybe forgotten!) that the new proposed tube would be a three-laner.

Still think it is a mistake to not price all lanes on the HRBT, but that's just me. 

[amroad17]

Back when I was still stationed in the area, I saw backups as far back as Cedar Ln, so Churchland (basically the next exit west) is not that far of a stretch...

Wow!!  That far?  Even before the Pinners Point Connector was built, traffic never backed up that far.  Traffic rarely backed up in Port Norfolk.  Of course, 22 years ago before I moved to Northern Kentucky, there wasn't the traffic there is now.  Must be fun to drive there now! 

[froggie]

Traffic didn't back up that far before Pinners Point was built because people knew it was a PITA to connect through Port Norfolk to the Midtown Tunnel.  Building Pinners Point changed all that.

[74/171FAN]

ABC13 (Hampton Roads Local Station):  Va. Governor McAuliffe to announce toll relief plan

I thought that eliminating the tolls off the MLK Freeway was toll relief, but I think the bigger concern is that making Elizabeth River Crossings pay $500,000 a year for 10 years could put them in an Act 44/89 scenario.

[cpzilliacus]

ABC13 (Hampton Roads Local Station):  Va. Governor McAuliffe to announce toll relief plan

I thought that eliminating the tolls off the MLK Freeway was toll relief, but I think the bigger concern is that making Elizabeth River Crossings pay $500,000 a year for 10 years could put them in an Act 44/89 scenario.

Will highway users in Northern Virginia ask "where's mine?" 

We know how much money is bleeding out of the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission and into PennDOT as a result of Act 44 and Act 89 and we also know how much revenue PTC collects annually.

We know that Virginia's governor wants $500,000 a year from the ERC group.  I do not think we know is how much revenue is ERC collecting.  Half a million dollars a year might not be that much for them.

[74/171FAN]

We know that Virginia's governor wants $500,000 a year from the ERC group.  I do not think we know is how much revenue is ERC collecting.  Half a million dollars a year might not be that much for them.

That seems to be the case as I thought about it and made a couple rough calculations (I got $53.8 million assuming 70,000 ADT on the Downtown Tunnel (based on 2015 traffic counts) and 40,000 ADT on the Midtown Tunnel (assuming an increase from the 32,000 in 2015 in the next couple years) using a $1.50 average toll). 

Will highway users in Northern Virginia ask "where's mine?" 

The best they may get is a VA 7 freeway from US 15 to VA 28 that may keep some traffic off VA 267/Dulles Greenway.  (This is the best source I could find on it.)