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Poll

Do you think dual permissive turns should be allowed?

Yes
- 55 (51.4%)
No
- 34 (31.8%)
Cat
- 18 (16.8%)

Total Members Voted: 107


Author Topic: Double left turns with permissive phasing  (Read 106937 times)

JayhawkCO

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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #575 on: December 29, 2021, 11:08:01 AM »

I finally saw a modern local one, complete with FYAs: https://goo.gl/maps/cHRTRxb4Y68qZs5Q6

Nice find! Would have loved to see a third FYA signal on the far left mast, but I get the feeling such signals are not so common in Kansas.

I appreciate that people continue to keep their eye out for these.

Oh yeah, there's another nearby: https://goo.gl/maps/W2sBPjURFyENcZyJ6

What's weird about that intersection, though, is the other direction of Strang Line Road has a protected-only signal for a single left turn: https://goo.gl/maps/gXdAG3YogLu2DRhm9

Another good find, very cool!

I've definitely seen that setup before, with a double permissive left opposing a single lane protected-only left. Pretty much all have been for one of three reasons: (1) military base gate; (2) poor visibility (maybe the reason here?); (3) not enough room to accommodate both directions waiting simultaneously (very rare -- cannot recall examples off the top of my head).

I know there's lots of CO examples, but here is another one I drove through yesterday just south of my house.  Had never really paid attention before.


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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #577 on: December 29, 2021, 06:37:03 PM »

The problem with permissive left turns on major arterial or expressway roadways is, drivers are used to being able to shift the path of their turn right (e.g. greater arc radius) or left (lesser arc radius) as necessary to fit through gaps in traffic, which is not a problem with single lane left turns, but obviously if a driver shifted right from the left turn lane or left from the right side left turn lane then they would interfere with the path of other vehicles.

Maybe this isn't a problem in low speed conditions but I wouldn't agree with allowing it in general.
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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #578 on: January 02, 2022, 09:30:20 AM »

Don't know if this counts, but on my way down to Woodbridge Twp NJ, I saw a double permissive left for a concurrent pedestrian phase in Jersey City NJ (Location). I think the entirety of the origin street I was on was one way, so that's why I question it. I believe the protected phase comes on at the end after the pedestrian phase ends.

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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #579 on: February 05, 2022, 02:18:11 AM »

Hopefully this doesn't constitute bumping a dead thread.

I found an example in British Columbia of all places, while doom scrolling in google maps.

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1701299,-123.1590777,3a,45.8y,88.6h,95.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stxlaglUEbke6Sdamf622MQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #580 on: February 05, 2022, 01:28:41 PM »

Hopefully this doesn't constitute bumping a dead thread.

I found an example in British Columbia of all places, while doom scrolling in google maps.

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1701299,-123.1590777,3a,45.8y,88.6h,95.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stxlaglUEbke6Sdamf622MQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Yeah, rare example! Richmond actually has a couple more examples, one on the other side of the No. 2 Road Bridge (here), and another leaving the cell phone lot at YVR (here).

I actually have a video of the example you linked to. They've since replaced all of the signals with 12-inch lenses (seen here), so they are evidently committed to the permissive phasing:

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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #581 on: February 08, 2022, 11:04:42 PM »

Based on Page 11 of 26 of these plans, a permissive dual left may be available for eastbound at the IL 92/Centennial Expressway/Andalusiaa Road intersection near Rock Island when a train blocks the south leg ("EBLT shall flash yellow during dwell").
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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #582 on: February 12, 2022, 02:05:19 AM »

I found another example in New Mexico while doom scrolling at 1 AM.

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.8998397,-105.9602423,3a,66y,267.19h,93.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sz1ImLXsZWwh6ujNRF6uOQg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

This one's interesting to me because there's only one overhead five segment signal for a total of four lanes of traffic.
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jakeroot

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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #583 on: February 28, 2022, 01:52:26 PM »

Based on Page 11 of 26 of these plans, a permissive dual left may be available for eastbound at the IL 92/Centennial Expressway/Andalusiaa Road intersection near Rock Island when a train blocks the south leg ("EBLT shall flash yellow during dwell").

I can see in real life that only the green section is an arrow. So would it flash yellow for the EBLT, solid green for through, and red for WBLT? Interesting.

I found another example in New Mexico while doom scrolling at 1 AM.

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.8998397,-105.9602423,3a,66y,267.19h,93.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sz1ImLXsZWwh6ujNRF6uOQg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

This one's interesting to me because there's only one overhead five segment signal for a total of four lanes of traffic.

Doubly interesting (no pun intending) because there is no supplemental left turn signal on the far left corner. That's typically standard in New Mexico, especially at double left turns. Well, at least with it being permissive, the overhead and supplemental right corner signal technically mean the signal meets the two-signal minimum rule.

I will add that New Mexico has a surprisingly high number of permissive double left turns. I think they're in the top five, perhaps behind only Colorado and Texas.
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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #584 on: February 28, 2022, 01:55:44 PM »

Neglecting this thread, reviving it with a question for Michiganders.

At the newly rebuilt Telegraph Rd / Plymouth Rd intersection in Detroit, the southbound-to-northbound U-turn intersects a minor road, and both the double U-turn and minor street receive green signals. Would traffic turning left (making a U-turn, technically) be required to yield to anyone on that road? My gut says absolutely, as both approaches receive simultaneous green orbs (as I mentioned), and I see no other signs indicating to the contrary.

https://goo.gl/maps/mtbxiUpt7AvJwvZM6 (view #1)
https://goo.gl/maps/DnQf4iVCLwnNu2Qv6 (view #2)
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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #585 on: March 01, 2022, 11:38:33 AM »

I have no experience with Michigan but it appears to me that such traffic would indeed have to yield, but that is such a minor street that u-turning traffic is unlikely to encounter opposing traffic.

Plus both approaches are able to make their respective turns on red as far as I know (the U-turn part of the Michigan Left maneuver is counted as a left turn from one-way to one-way).
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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #586 on: March 01, 2022, 06:22:00 PM »

I have no experience with Michigan but it appears to me that such traffic would indeed have to yield, but that is such a minor street that u-turning traffic is unlikely to encounter opposing traffic.

Plus both approaches are able to make their respective turns on red as far as I know (the U-turn part of the Michigan Left maneuver is counted as a left turn from one-way to one-way).

Agreed with that assessment, I suspect it wasn't worth split-phasing. Although it's got me wondering how common such a setup is.
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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #587 on: March 13, 2022, 09:23:17 PM »

I found a very interesting example at a Minnesota intersection.

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8522878,-93.1298118,3a,75.1y,250.94h,94.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTNJBDnUyDGyaQZwzYj-JVw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

One approach has normal double flashing yellow arrows for a two-lane wide permissive setup.

The more interesting approach has one flashing yellow arrow above the left turn lane, and Minnesota's flashing yellow arrow weird doghouse signal permissive left turn thing above the option lane. This is the only time I've seen these two signals used on the same mast arm for the same approach.
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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #588 on: March 15, 2022, 11:35:28 AM »

I found a very interesting example at a Minnesota intersection.

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8522878,-93.1298118,3a,75.1y,250.94h,94.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTNJBDnUyDGyaQZwzYj-JVw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

One approach has normal double flashing yellow arrows for a two-lane wide permissive setup.

The more interesting approach has one flashing yellow arrow above the left turn lane, and Minnesota's flashing yellow arrow weird doghouse signal permissive left turn thing above the option lane. This is the only time I've seen these two signals used on the same mast arm for the same approach.

There is one other identical approach in Eden Prairie as well: https://goo.gl/maps/AB3ktBEx8e15CDka7

I guess a good term for this kind of setup, given that there is apparently more than a couple of them in the state, is the "Minnesota-style option lane double permissive turn"...maybe someone can think of something catchier.
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Hobart

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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #589 on: March 24, 2022, 12:03:43 AM »

I found a very interesting example at a Minnesota intersection.

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8522878,-93.1298118,3a,75.1y,250.94h,94.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTNJBDnUyDGyaQZwzYj-JVw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

One approach has normal double flashing yellow arrows for a two-lane wide permissive setup.

The more interesting approach has one flashing yellow arrow above the left turn lane, and Minnesota's flashing yellow arrow weird doghouse signal permissive left turn thing above the option lane. This is the only time I've seen these two signals used on the same mast arm for the same approach.

There is one other identical approach in Eden Prairie as well: https://goo.gl/maps/AB3ktBEx8e15CDka7

I guess a good term for this kind of setup, given that there is apparently more than a couple of them in the state, is the "Minnesota-style option lane double permissive turn"...maybe someone can think of something catchier.

There is definitely more than a couple!

I found a third one in Elk River.
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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #590 on: March 24, 2022, 02:00:22 PM »

I found a very interesting example at a Minnesota intersection.

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8522878,-93.1298118,3a,75.1y,250.94h,94.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTNJBDnUyDGyaQZwzYj-JVw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

One approach has normal double flashing yellow arrows for a two-lane wide permissive setup.

The more interesting approach has one flashing yellow arrow above the left turn lane, and Minnesota's flashing yellow arrow weird doghouse signal permissive left turn thing above the option lane. This is the only time I've seen these two signals used on the same mast arm for the same approach.

There is one other identical approach in Eden Prairie as well: https://goo.gl/maps/AB3ktBEx8e15CDka7

I guess a good term for this kind of setup, given that there is apparently more than a couple of them in the state, is the "Minnesota-style option lane double permissive turn"...maybe someone can think of something catchier.

There is definitely more than a couple!

I found a third one in Elk River.

Could you indicate where? I glanced around but didn't see any specific locations with the option-lane double permissive left turn setup like the two just mentioned.
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Hobart

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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #591 on: March 24, 2022, 05:23:21 PM »

I found a very interesting example at a Minnesota intersection.

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8522878,-93.1298118,3a,75.1y,250.94h,94.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTNJBDnUyDGyaQZwzYj-JVw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

One approach has normal double flashing yellow arrows for a two-lane wide permissive setup.

The more interesting approach has one flashing yellow arrow above the left turn lane, and Minnesota's flashing yellow arrow weird doghouse signal permissive left turn thing above the option lane. This is the only time I've seen these two signals used on the same mast arm for the same approach.

There is one other identical approach in Eden Prairie as well: https://goo.gl/maps/AB3ktBEx8e15CDka7

I guess a good term for this kind of setup, given that there is apparently more than a couple of them in the state, is the "Minnesota-style option lane double permissive turn"...maybe someone can think of something catchier.

There is definitely more than a couple!

I found a third one in Elk River.

Could you indicate where? I glanced around but didn't see any specific locations with the option-lane double permissive left turn setup like the two just mentioned.

So, this is what happens when I don't proofread my own posts because I post too late at night.

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.3077572,-93.5774317,3a,75y,184.13h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1skLHdqbvOPrTIFWd3Mw33dg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DkLHdqbvOPrTIFWd3Mw33dg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D182.91048%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Sorry for the runaround.
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jakeroot

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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #592 on: March 24, 2022, 08:45:30 PM »

I found a very interesting example at a Minnesota intersection.

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8522878,-93.1298118,3a,75.1y,250.94h,94.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTNJBDnUyDGyaQZwzYj-JVw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

One approach has normal double flashing yellow arrows for a two-lane wide permissive setup.

The more interesting approach has one flashing yellow arrow above the left turn lane, and Minnesota's flashing yellow arrow weird doghouse signal permissive left turn thing above the option lane. This is the only time I've seen these two signals used on the same mast arm for the same approach.

There is one other identical approach in Eden Prairie as well: https://goo.gl/maps/AB3ktBEx8e15CDka7

I guess a good term for this kind of setup, given that there is apparently more than a couple of them in the state, is the "Minnesota-style option lane double permissive turn"...maybe someone can think of something catchier.

There is definitely more than a couple!

I found a third one in Elk River.

Could you indicate where? I glanced around but didn't see any specific locations with the option-lane double permissive left turn setup like the two just mentioned.

So, this is what happens when I don't proofread my own posts because I post too late at night.

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.3077572,-93.5774317,3a,75y,184.13h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1skLHdqbvOPrTIFWd3Mw33dg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DkLHdqbvOPrTIFWd3Mw33dg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D182.91048%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Sorry for the runaround.

All good! Thanks for sharing that. No wonder I didn't spot it while browsing overhead, it was just installed and not shown on globe satellite view. Although it is shown on non-globe satellite view...note to self, turn off globe satellite mode when looking for most recent imagery!

In terms of the setup, it seems like there may be some path overlap. I'm curious when it's set to operate, I'm able to see GSV imagery showing it operating, but it's operating more as a split-phase intersection.
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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #593 on: March 25, 2022, 02:06:07 PM »

JMAN_WiS&S recently brought up Eau Claire, Wisconsin in another thread, and it reminded me to take a look around that place again.

I noticed that eastbound Clairemont to the northbound Hastings Way onramp has a double permissive left turn using flashing yellow arrows:

https://goo.gl/maps/n7DnBT2NXR9VsN1A9

In true Eau Claire fashion, there's plenty of signals! Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find any GSV of the left turn signals operating in permissive mode. If there are any locals that know of this intersections and could comment on how it operates, I'd love to know if it actually runs in permissive mode (perhaps at night).
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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #594 on: March 26, 2022, 09:01:03 PM »

JMAN_WiS&S recently brought up Eau Claire, Wisconsin in another thread, and it reminded me to take a look around that place again.

I noticed that eastbound Clairemont to the northbound Hastings Way onramp has a double permissive left turn using flashing yellow arrows:

https://goo.gl/maps/n7DnBT2NXR9VsN1A9

In true Eau Claire fashion, there's plenty of signals! Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find any GSV of the left turn signals operating in permissive mode. If there are any locals that know of this intersections and could comment on how it operates, I'd love to know if it actually runs in permissive mode (perhaps at night).

I wonder why Wisconsin insists on using so many heads for everything. I appreciate good supplementary heads, but this is getting ridiculous.

Also, although in a completely different place, I found a Mississippi setup that uses double doghouses... in the middle of the day, with both left turn directions going at the same time, at an intersection with US 90, completely unlike the example you just sent. Duaity of man I guess.

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.4161172,-88.8277286,3a,24.9y,173.78h,94.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sN1IQDLKTGHznubnJzg7iwA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #595 on: March 27, 2022, 01:45:48 PM »

JMAN_WiS&S recently brought up Eau Claire, Wisconsin in another thread, and it reminded me to take a look around that place again.

I noticed that eastbound Clairemont to the northbound Hastings Way onramp has a double permissive left turn using flashing yellow arrows:

https://goo.gl/maps/n7DnBT2NXR9VsN1A9

In true Eau Claire fashion, there's plenty of signals! Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find any GSV of the left turn signals operating in permissive mode. If there are any locals that know of this intersections and could comment on how it operates, I'd love to know if it actually runs in permissive mode (perhaps at night).

I wonder why Wisconsin insists on using so many heads for everything. I appreciate good supplementary heads, but this is getting ridiculous.

Actually, the new standard for Wisconsin is all overhead with one nearside signal for each maneuver, which is not really that impressive. Even most Illinois districts require both one nearside signal and one far left corner signal. Eau Claire, on the other hand, goes a bit above and beyond, looking more like California or Nevada with their new installations compared to the rest of Wisconsin.

Also, although in a completely different place, I found a Mississippi setup that uses double doghouses... in the middle of the day, with both left turn directions going at the same time, at an intersection with US 90, completely unlike the example you just sent. Duaity of man I guess.

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.4161172,-88.8277286,3a,24.9y,173.78h,94.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sN1IQDLKTGHznubnJzg7iwA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Very nice! That's a great example of a positive-offset left turn for the opposing single lane left turn. This is preferred as it massively improves visibility for left turning traffic.
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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #596 on: March 27, 2022, 01:49:30 PM »

The double left turn from MN-62 to southbound I-35E has a double left turn that operates permissively. MN has a ton of double permissive left turn "signal heads" but I don't believe many actually operate in permissive mode:

https://goo.gl/maps/qGwuB1yoWY5WZKnJ7
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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #597 on: April 11, 2022, 10:54:33 AM »

I found another example in New Mexico.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1879789,-106.6140448,3a,62y,42.2h,87.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZoh9IMh3tvRc28SaJ4smfA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

You can't see the lanes clearly because there's other cars, but it's striped for two-lane left turns.

This is also very interesting because there's no obvious indication that the left turn is two lanes besides pavement markings. There's only one overhead signal, and no signage anywhere denoting lane usage.
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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #598 on: April 11, 2022, 05:29:05 PM »

I found another example in New Mexico.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1879789,-106.6140448,3a,62y,42.2h,87.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZoh9IMh3tvRc28SaJ4smfA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

You can't see the lanes clearly because there's other cars, but it's striped for two-lane left turns.

This is also very interesting because there's no obvious indication that the left turn is two lanes besides pavement markings. There's only one overhead signal, and no signage anywhere denoting lane usage.

I don't know what New Mexico's rules are for double left turns, but it seems they have no rule specifically prohibiting permissive lefts with more than one lane.
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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #599 on: April 12, 2022, 11:17:44 PM »

I should really do things during D&D besides look at Google Street View!

Found this example in Regina, Saskatchewan, not even using FYA's (because it's in Canada)!

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.4962855,-104.640998,3a,55.6y,356.64h,90.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUZohFOprKKpvs9vNRPJjfg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
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