Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Plutonic Panda]

It’s also rather ironic that streetcars started white flight to streetcar suburbs. Anti car loons love to twist and forget facts when it is inconvenient to their cause. Yes we can do better with freeway construction but it doesn’t have to be a zero sum equation.

[jeffandnicole]

The pushing of highways thru urban areas is another reason that many cities have crime & pollution. Areas being determined as a West or east side because a highway splits the area caused many of the things we see today that people in the 50’s would call “undesirable”.

Many crime-infested neighborhoods existed before any highways were built in said-areas.  Many areas that were once thriving economically that became crime-infested areas later on was the result of many factories, mills, textiles, etc. closing down with nothing viable as an economic replacement.  In terms of pollution, those fore-mentioned establishments weren't exactly pollution-free in their hey-day either.  I could also state some cultural, political & societal reasons for such as well; but I'm not going to derail this thread & turn it into a flame war/p*ssing contest for such.

Long story short: saying that highways are the primary reason for urban blight & pollution in many instances is flat-out bunk because such already existed beforehand.  Highways, both proposed & existing, are just common scapegoats.

And to further that - many highways were designed to go thru poorer areas where people didn't have the money, willpower, or politicians-in-their-back-pocket to fight the path of the highway.

[Tonytone]

The pushing of highways thru urban areas is another reason that many cities have crime & pollution. Areas being determined as a West or east side because a highway splits the area caused many of the things we see today that people in the 50’s would call “undesirable”.

Many crime-infested neighborhoods existed before any highways were built in said-areas.  Many areas that were once thriving economically that became crime-infested areas later on was the result of many factories, mills, textiles, etc. closing down with nothing viable as an economic replacement.  In terms of pollution, those fore-mentioned establishments weren't exactly pollution-free in their hey-day either.  I could also state some cultural, political & societal reasons for such as well; but I'm not going to derail this thread & turn it into a flame war/p*ssing contest for such.

Long story short: saying that highways are the primary reason for urban blight & pollution in many instances is flat-out bunk because such already existed beforehand.  Highways, both proposed & existing, are just common scapegoats.

I agree with you completely & I believe we don’t have to turn this into a “whos right contest”.


I am not gonna speak about other cities, in this case Wilmington’s Westside where the highway was built was a thriving neighborhood with factories, houses, businesses & more. (From sources I can put in this topic,)

They just chose that area & “razed it” there was also another route alternative that didn’t destroy a major part of the city, but they didnt choose that one( source TBA). Residents also from that time say the neighborhood went downhill after the highway was built. Also they didn’t add ramps to the area for a while (source).

Im not saying highways are the reason for blight or destroying neighborhoods, but its the way they implemented these said highways into urban areas.

Yes many area were already economically-depressed / crime ridden, But after many of these highways just cut through many of these cities it drastically changed everything. We now know how to implement highways & other things into areas without causing a massive effect now, but we know the past & what was going on at the time so it would be our duty now to right those wrongs & that goes for everyone not just the Government.

To say what they did in the past didnt excel these issues would be ignoring history. 


iPhone

[Plutonic Panda]

The pushing of highways thru urban areas is another reason that many cities have crime & pollution. Areas being determined as a West or east side because a highway splits the area caused many of the things we see today that people in the 50’s would call “undesirable”.

Many crime-infested neighborhoods existed before any highways were built in said-areas.  Many areas that were once thriving economically that became crime-infested areas later on was the result of many factories, mills, textiles, etc. closing down with nothing viable as an economic replacement.  In terms of pollution, those fore-mentioned establishments weren't exactly pollution-free in their hey-day either.  I could also state some cultural, political & societal reasons for such as well; but I'm not going to derail this thread & turn it into a flame war/p*ssing contest for such.

Long story short: saying that highways are the primary reason for urban blight & pollution in many instances is flat-out bunk because such already existed beforehand.  Highways, both proposed & existing, are just common scapegoats.

And to further that - many highways were designed to go thru poorer areas where people didn't have the money, willpower, or politicians-in-their-back-pocket to fight the path of the highway.

so you are telling me the the freeway builders took the path of least resistance? Well that shouldn’t be very shocking.

[Beltway]

Also importantly, in that it is paralleled by 3 Interstate standard Philadelphia bypasses --
I-476/I-276, I-295 and NJTP.

I would imagine a LOT of that 95 traffic flowing thru Philly is simply traffic going from a PA county to a PA county (ie, Bucks County to Delaware County).  A simple license plate could would probably verify how many non-PA and non-NJ tags travel thru this area.  And figure that the destination for many of those non-state tags is Philly or a nearby county.  Sesame Place, for example, is a frequently visited amusement park where travelers from Delaware or Maryland wouldn't generally benefit by crossing over into NJ, then back into PA.

If Delaware and New Jersey had not built those two bypasses, then the northeastern corridor freeway route traffic would utilize I-95 thru Southeastern Pennsylvania, and the I-476/I-276 bypass.

The local traffic, regional traffic, and thru traffic would greatly increase the traffic on those routes.  I-95 in central Philadelphia would have AADT in the 220,000 to 250,000 range, and I-476 might exceed 200,000, as would some parts of I-276.

[jeffandnicole]

The pushing of highways thru urban areas is another reason that many cities have crime & pollution. Areas being determined as a West or east side because a highway splits the area caused many of the things we see today that people in the 50’s would call “undesirable”.

Many crime-infested neighborhoods existed before any highways were built in said-areas.  Many areas that were once thriving economically that became crime-infested areas later on was the result of many factories, mills, textiles, etc. closing down with nothing viable as an economic replacement.  In terms of pollution, those fore-mentioned establishments weren't exactly pollution-free in their hey-day either.  I could also state some cultural, political & societal reasons for such as well; but I'm not going to derail this thread & turn it into a flame war/p*ssing contest for such.

Long story short: saying that highways are the primary reason for urban blight & pollution in many instances is flat-out bunk because such already existed beforehand.  Highways, both proposed & existing, are just common scapegoats.

And to further that - many highways were designed to go thru poorer areas where people didn't have the money, willpower, or politicians-in-their-back-pocket to fight the path of the highway.

so you are telling me the the freeway builders took the path of least resistance? Well that shouldn’t be very shocking.

You? No.

People that believe highways caused neighborhoods to go downhill? Yes.

[jeffandnicole]

Also importantly, in that it is paralleled by 3 Interstate standard Philadelphia bypasses --
I-476/I-276, I-295 and NJTP.

I would imagine a LOT of that 95 traffic flowing thru Philly is simply traffic going from a PA county to a PA county (ie, Bucks County to Delaware County).  A simple license plate could would probably verify how many non-PA and non-NJ tags travel thru this area.  And figure that the destination for many of those non-state tags is Philly or a nearby county.  Sesame Place, for example, is a frequently visited amusement park where travelers from Delaware or Maryland wouldn't generally benefit by crossing over into NJ, then back into PA.

If Delaware and New Jersey had not built those two bypasses, then the northeastern corridor freeway route traffic would utilize I-95 thru Southeastern Pennsylvania, and the I-476/I-276 bypass.

The local traffic, regional traffic, and thru traffic would greatly increase the traffic on those routes.  I-95 in central Philadelphia would have AADT in the 220,000 to 250,000 range, and I-476 might exceed 200,000, as would some parts of I-276.

Also importantly, in that it is paralleled by 3 Interstate standard Philadelphia bypasses --
I-476/I-276, I-295 and NJTP.

I would imagine a LOT of that 95 traffic flowing thru Philly is simply traffic going from a PA county to a PA county (ie, Bucks County to Delaware County).  A simple license plate could would probably verify how many non-PA and non-NJ tags travel thru this area.  And figure that the destination for many of those non-state tags is Philly or a nearby county.  Sesame Place, for example, is a frequently visited amusement park where travelers from Delaware or Maryland wouldn't generally benefit by crossing over into NJ, then back into PA.

If Delaware and New Jersey had not built those two bypasses, then the northeastern corridor freeway route traffic would utilize I-95 thru Southeastern Pennsylvania, and the I-476/I-276 bypass.

The local traffic, regional traffic, and thru traffic would greatly increase the traffic on those routes.  I-95 in central Philadelphia would have AADT in the 220,000 to 250,000 range, and I-476 might exceed 200,000, as would some parts of I-276.

Okayyyy...but they were, so what's the point of playing "what if"?  I thought the question at hand is how much thru traffic is on 95 in Philly based on what actually exists today.

[Beltway]

Also importantly, in that it is paralleled by 3 Interstate standard Philadelphia bypasses --
I-476/I-276, I-295 and NJTP.

I would imagine a LOT of that 95 traffic flowing thru Philly is simply traffic going from a PA county to a PA county (ie, Bucks County to Delaware County).  A simple license plate could would probably verify how many non-PA and non-NJ tags travel thru this area.  And figure that the destination for many of those non-state tags is Philly or a nearby county.  Sesame Place, for example, is a frequently visited amusement park where travelers from Delaware or Maryland wouldn't generally benefit by crossing over into NJ, then back into PA.

If Delaware and New Jersey had not built those two bypasses, then the northeastern corridor freeway route traffic would utilize I-95 thru Southeastern Pennsylvania, and the I-476/I-276 bypass.
The local traffic, regional traffic, and thru traffic would greatly increase the traffic on those routes.  I-95 in central Philadelphia would have AADT in the 220,000 to 250,000 range, and I-476 might exceed 200,000, as would some parts of I-276.

Okayyyy...but they were, so what's the point of playing "what if"?  I thought the question at hand is how much thru traffic is on 95 in Philly based on what actually exists today.

My topmost comment was directed to where you posted, "... say that it's [Phila. I-95] the least congested stretch of highway in the area, which is true because it was built properly to handle the amount of traffic expected."

That is true, but the fact that at 8 lanes it was able to do that, was because of the 3 Interstate standard bypasses.

[PHLBOS]

I am not gonna speak about other cities, in this case Wilmington’s Westside where the highway was built was a thriving neighborhood with factories, houses, businesses & more. (From sources I can put in this topic,)

One historical question worth asking would be: did those factories and businesses close or relocate because of the highway construction or were such close/relocated years beforehand, unrelated to any then-proposed highway plans?

[jeffandnicole]

Also importantly, in that it is paralleled by 3 Interstate standard Philadelphia bypasses --
I-476/I-276, I-295 and NJTP.

I would imagine a LOT of that 95 traffic flowing thru Philly is simply traffic going from a PA county to a PA county (ie, Bucks County to Delaware County).  A simple license plate could would probably verify how many non-PA and non-NJ tags travel thru this area.  And figure that the destination for many of those non-state tags is Philly or a nearby county.  Sesame Place, for example, is a frequently visited amusement park where travelers from Delaware or Maryland wouldn't generally benefit by crossing over into NJ, then back into PA.

If Delaware and New Jersey had not built those two bypasses, then the northeastern corridor freeway route traffic would utilize I-95 thru Southeastern Pennsylvania, and the I-476/I-276 bypass.
The local traffic, regional traffic, and thru traffic would greatly increase the traffic on those routes.  I-95 in central Philadelphia would have AADT in the 220,000 to 250,000 range, and I-476 might exceed 200,000, as would some parts of I-276.

Okayyyy...but they were, so what's the point of playing "what if"?  I thought the question at hand is how much thru traffic is on 95 in Philly based on what actually exists today.

My topmost comment was directed to where you posted, "... say that it's [Phila. I-95] the least congested stretch of highway in the area, which is true because it was built properly to handle the amount of traffic expected."

That is true, but the fact that at 8 lanes it was able to do that, was because of the 3 Interstate standard bypasses.

Please explain the 6 and 4 lane portions then, please.

[Beltway]

My topmost comment was directed to where you posted, "... say that it's [Phila. I-95] the least congested stretch of highway in the area, which is true because it was built properly to handle the amount of traffic expected."
That is true, but the fact that at 8 lanes it was able to do that, was because of the 3 Interstate standard bypasses.

Please explain the 6 and 4 lane portions then, please.

What about them?

Or are you suggesting that the 6 and 4 lane portions were -not- built properly to handle the amount of traffic expected?

[jeffandnicole]

...Or are you suggesting that the 6 and 4 lane portions were -not- built properly to handle the amount of traffic expected?

Correct.

[Beltway]

...Or are you suggesting that the 6 and 4 lane portions were -not- built properly to handle the amount of traffic expected?

Correct.

Back in the 1960s?

The gripe I had with the generally 8-lane section between Front Street and Academy Road that was completed in 1969, was the 3 or 4 brief lane drops each way to 3 lanes.  They should have made it a continuous 4 lanes each way.  The current "Revive 95" projects will thankfully correct that, as well as providing full shoulders all the way.

Enterprise Avenue to Broad Street originally did have 4 lanes each way, but that was later reduced to 3 lanes each way on the Girard Point Bridge to enable full shoulders.

I'm not sure why Broad Street to I-76 was built with 6 lanes, but 1990s traffic projections back in the early 1970s may have indicated that it would be adequate.

The lane drops to 2 lanes each way at I-476 may have been reasonable in 1970 but were not when I-476 was completed in 1992.

The 6 lane section between Delaware and I-476 was probably adequate when designed in the 1960s for the 1980s.

[cpzilliacus]

I'm not sure why Broad Street to I-76 was built with 6 lanes, but 1990s traffic projections back in the early 1970s may have indicated that it would be adequate.

Traffic projections we now know, were frequently too low.

Exhibit A is a road I know very well, the Virginia portion of the Capital Beltway (I-495) between I-95 and the American Legion Bridge.

The Virginia Department of Highways (VDH), predecessor to the Virginia Department of  Transportation (VDOT), was told by engineers and planners with the federal Bureau of Public Roads in the late 1950's or early 1960's that this part of I-495 would not be approved for more than two lanes each way (total of 4 lanes), and that's the way it was when it was completed in 1964.  As I understand it, the feds were confident that there would be little or no growth in Fairfax County, Virginia, including a dusty crossroads intersection known as Tysons Corner at the junction of VA-7 and VA-123 and that four lanes would be enough for many years to come.

Those assertions would prove to be incorrect,  and there were soon backups on the Outer Loop crossing the American Legion Bridge from Maryland to Virginia (the left lane dropped near the Virginia shoreline).

That went on until the mid-1970's, when VDH was able to secure approval to widen all of it from 4 lanes to 8 lanes in one massive project that was completed abut 1976 or 1977.  Then the backups flipped, since the Beltway at the American Legion Bridge was still 6 lanes, so drivers headed from Virginia to Maryland had to endure years of misery (the Maryland part was only widened to 8 lanes (along with the bridge itself) around 1990.

[PastTense]

We now know how to implement highways & other things into areas without causing a massive effect now...

We do? Please tell us what they are.

On the contrary my view is that instead the decision almost everywhere is to build no new highways in dense urban areas.

[Tonytone]

We now know how to implement highways & other things into areas without causing a massive effect now...

We do? Please tell us what they are.

On the contrary my view is that instead the decision almost everywhere is to build no new highways in dense urban areas.

Thats my point, but also to build it in a way that people can live & work around it without it cutting an area in half.


iPhone

[Alps]

...Or are you suggesting that the 6 and 4 lane portions were -not- built properly to handle the amount of traffic expected?

Correct.

Back in the 1960s?

The gripe I had with the generally 8-lane section between Front Street and Academy Road that was completed in 1969, was the 3 or 4 brief lane drops each way to 3 lanes.  They should have made it a continuous 4 lanes each way.  The current "Revive 95" projects will thankfully correct that, as well as providing full shoulders all the way.

Enterprise Avenue to Broad Street originally did have 4 lanes each way, but that was later reduced to 3 lanes each way on the Girard Point Bridge to enable full shoulders.

I'm not sure why Broad Street to I-76 was built with 6 lanes, but 1990s traffic projections back in the early 1970s may have indicated that it would be adequate.

The lane drops to 2 lanes each way at I-476 may have been reasonable in 1970 but were not when I-476 was completed in 1992.

The 6 lane section between Delaware and I-476 was probably adequate when designed in the 1960s for the 1980s.

6 lanes between Broad and I-76 is probably okay. I-95 really needs to be 10 lanes from I-676 north for some distance and 8 lanes all the way up to PA 413, if not into the I-276 interchange.

[Beltway]

I'm not sure why Broad Street to I-76 was built with 6 lanes, but 1990s traffic projections back in the early 1970s may have indicated that it would be adequate.

6 lanes between Broad and I-76 is probably okay. I-95 really needs to be 10 lanes from I-676 north for some distance and 8 lanes all the way up to PA 413, if not into the I-276 interchange.

2017 traffic volumes for I-95 between the PHL airport and Center City are in the 109,000 to 126,000 AADT range.

Considering the huge population of this metro, that is not bad (again probably half of what AADT would be if no bypass in DE/NJ), and given the cost of widening those long elevated sections, I wouldn't put a lot of priority on it at this point.

[74/171FAN]

6 lanes between Broad and I-76 is probably okay. I-95 really needs to be 10 lanes from I-676 north for some distance and 8 lanes all the way up to PA 413, if not into the I-276 interchange.

PennDOT's I-95 website sadly does not make this clear, but I believe that the current projects are supposed to make it 8 through lanes from I-676 to PA 73.

[Beltway]

PennDOT's I-95 website sadly does not make this clear, but I believe that the current projects are supposed to make it 8 through lanes from I-676 to PA 73.

The 10 miles between Front Street and Academy Road was built in the 1960s as generally 8 lanes, but it had 3 or 4 brief lane drops to 3 lanes at interchanges.  The 7 miles between Academy Road and PA-413 was built with 6 lanes, also in the 1960s.

So after 95revive is complete, I-95 will have 4 continuous lanes each way between I-676 and Academy Road. 

Given the large amount of entering and exiting traffic at I-676, having lane drops to 3 lanes is compatible with the 4-4 design on either side.
 

[Roadsguy]

PennDOT's I-95 website sadly does not make this clear, but I believe that the current projects are supposed to make it 8 through lanes from I-676 to PA 73.

The 10 miles between Front Street and Academy Road was built in the 1960s as generally 8 lanes, but it had 3 or 4 brief lane drops to 3 lanes at interchanges.  The 7 miles between Academy Road and PA-413 was built with 6 lanes, also in the 1960s.

So after 95revive is complete, I-95 will have 4 continuous lanes each way between I-676 and Academy Road. 

Given the large amount of entering and exiting traffic at I-676, having lane drops to 3 lanes is compatible with the 4-4 design on either side.

It'll also have a fifth auxiliary lane each way between some of the lower interchanges, particularly between I-676 and Girard Avenue.

[Tonytone]

I am not gonna speak about other cities, in this case Wilmington’s Westside where the highway was built was a thriving neighborhood with factories, houses, businesses & more. (From sources I can put in this topic,)

One historical question worth asking would be: did those factories and businesses close or relocate because of the highway construction or were such close/relocated years beforehand, unrelated to any then-proposed highway plans?

I wanted to find some evidence before I spoke anymore. In the article I will post below, they had two chooses ok where to build I-95  A.Through a less populated by Bancroft (which costed more) or B.Through a densely populated area( cheaper).

Now what the GOV thought was that more developers would come in & start to redevelop the whole area & make it great.... wrong it backfired & the areas remained empty for years & the population dropped. They removed 600 structures that had 970 dwellings were removed along with 22 blocks of slums.


They also started to redevelop the whole city as-well requiring stores to upgrade & implementing a mall which I believe is what Market ST mall was. (Correct me if I’m wrong).

Now in this Wilmington’s case I-95 construction destroyed the city literally along with bad planning & is probably the reason IMO for the cities slow growth as-well. Were some of the buildings in that area abandoned maybe, but this was still an area that didn’t even get to see the fall of manufacturing because it was destroyed before it could happen & everyone was displaced. (Mix that with the riots from the MLK assassination) & the national guard staying in Wilmington for a year. It beat the dog dead.

Edit: added link [URL]https://townsquaredelaware.com/2012/09/06/wilmington-how-we-got-here-and-where-were-going-2/ /[URL]








iPhone

[Alps]

PennDOT's I-95 website sadly does not make this clear, but I believe that the current projects are supposed to make it 8 through lanes from I-676 to PA 73.

The 10 miles between Front Street and Academy Road was built in the 1960s as generally 8 lanes, but it had 3 or 4 brief lane drops to 3 lanes at interchanges.  The 7 miles between Academy Road and PA-413 was built with 6 lanes, also in the 1960s.

So after 95revive is complete, I-95 will have 4 continuous lanes each way between I-676 and Academy Road. 

Given the large amount of entering and exiting traffic at I-676, having lane drops to 3 lanes is compatible with the 4-4 design on either side.
 

In my experience, more people are heading to-from the north than the south when it comes to I-676, which is why I'd suggest 10 lanes are needed. 8 lanes backs up all the way to that split, and possibly as much as half the traffic is going down to 676 or taking the surface street exit right there. Meanwhile, with 8 lanes from the airport, there's a decent amount of traffic heading northwest toward I-76 that leaves I-95 with less traffic through the Walt area.

[Beltway]

In my experience, more people are heading to-from the north than the south when it comes to I-676, which is why I'd suggest 10 lanes are needed. 8 lanes backs up all the way to that split, and possibly as much as half the traffic is going down to 676 or taking the surface street exit right there. Meanwhile, with 8 lanes from the airport, there's a decent amount of traffic heading northwest toward I-76 that leaves I-95 with less traffic through the Walt area.

10 lanes north of I-676? 

For how many miles?

PA-291 and the Penrose Bridge is a reliever to I-95 north of the airport, that has an AADT of about 44,000.

[Roadsguy]

In my experience, more people are heading to-from the north than the south when it comes to I-676, which is why I'd suggest 10 lanes are needed. 8 lanes backs up all the way to that split, and possibly as much as half the traffic is going down to 676 or taking the surface street exit right there. Meanwhile, with 8 lanes from the airport, there's a decent amount of traffic heading northwest toward I-76 that leaves I-95 with less traffic through the Walt area.

10 lanes north of I-676? 

For how many miles?

PA-291 and the Penrose Bridge is a reliever to I-95 north of the airport, that has an AADT of about 44,000.

The ten-lane stretches in the 95revive project are basically just auxiliary lanes. It'll be ten lanes from 676 to Girard, eight lanes through Girard, then I believe ten lanes again between Girard and the ramps at Allegheny Avenue.