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Author Topic: The Frost Tax  (Read 17921 times)

kalvado

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #150 on: December 30, 2020, 01:35:24 PM »

I was imagining that the snow would melt before it accumulated.
It's about the same - and probably worse than - self-cleaning of dark pavement or shingle roof. And the effect is non-existing at night. I may add that lots of snow usually means longer nights and shorter days.
Should be fairly obvious for someone with a high school diploma, I would say.
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GaryV

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #151 on: December 30, 2020, 02:39:06 PM »

At least one town in Michigan has a heated road system.

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

They've spent millions, to melt the snow in small parts of the city.  Not miles of roadway, only some city blocks.  Also, the heat currently comes from a coal-fired power plant - at least that is being replaced by natural gas.

And eventually that will be replaced by solar power which requires much less water.
Michigan. Winter. Solar power. What can go wrong?

They'll just heat the solar panels with the warm water to melt the snow on them.  Oh wait - when they switch to solar, there won't be any hot water any more.

Not to mention that Holland gets about 29 hours total sunlight from November to March.
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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #152 on: December 30, 2020, 02:41:44 PM »

Not to mention that Holland gets about 29 hours total sunlight from November to March.

Do you mean 29 days? All it takes to reach 29 hours of sunlight is 3-4 days without precipitation or overcast.
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kernals12

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #153 on: December 30, 2020, 02:44:36 PM »

At least one town in Michigan has a heated road system.

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

They've spent millions, to melt the snow in small parts of the city.  Not miles of roadway, only some city blocks.  Also, the heat currently comes from a coal-fired power plant - at least that is being replaced by natural gas.

I wonder if there is a way to use geothermal heat for this. It would still be expensive as hell but would not use carbon-intensive resources.

And by geothermal heating, I mean in the style that heats homes, not the electricity generated from hot water deep underground.

Your home is insulated to keep heat in during winter, sidewalks and roads aren't. Your idea would probably cool the ground more than it would warm the roads.
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GaryV

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #154 on: December 30, 2020, 02:46:39 PM »

Not to mention that Holland gets about 29 hours total sunlight from November to March.

Do you mean 29 days? All it takes to reach 29 hours of sunlight is 3-4 days without precipitation or overcast.

No, hours (ok, maybe I exaggerated a little).  But it is overcast almost continuously due to lake effect.

When I was in college, a prof stopped mid-lecture sometime in October and said, "Look outside.  This might be the last time you see the sun until March."  The locals shrugged, yeah. so?  That was the first I realized that other areas of the country get sunshine in the winter.
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Rothman

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #155 on: December 30, 2020, 02:47:07 PM »

This thread is a nonsense tornado.
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kernals12

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #156 on: December 30, 2020, 02:53:31 PM »

What gets me about the Holland snow melt system is that heat pollution from power plants, particularly nuclear ones, is a serious problem. The Vermont Yankee Nuclear Plant created a thermal plume on the Connecticut River that reached as far south as Holyoke, Massachusetts, devastating aquatic life. The traditional solution has been to build cooling towers that dump the heat into the air rather than the water. But using it for snow removal seems less wasteful. And since it eliminates the need for road salt, it solves two environmental problems at once.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 02:56:13 PM by kernals12 »
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kalvado

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #157 on: December 30, 2020, 03:02:57 PM »

What gets me about the Holland snow melt system is that heat pollution from power plants, particularly nuclear ones, is a serious problem. The Vermont Yankee Nuclear Plant created a thermal plume on the Connecticut River that reached as far south as Holyoke, Massachusetts, devastating aquatic life. The traditional solution has been to build cooling towers that dump the heat into the air rather than the water. But using it for snow removal seems less wasteful. And since it eliminates the need for road salt, it solves two environmental problems at once.
Can you estimate costs? Use you (parents') water bill for comparison
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SectorZ

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #158 on: December 30, 2020, 05:11:27 PM »

At least one town in Michigan has a heated road system.

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

They've spent millions, to melt the snow in small parts of the city.  Not miles of roadway, only some city blocks.  Also, the heat currently comes from a coal-fired power plant - at least that is being replaced by natural gas.

I wonder if there is a way to use geothermal heat for this. It would still be expensive as hell but would not use carbon-intensive resources.

And by geothermal heating, I mean in the style that heats homes, not the electricity generated from hot water deep underground.

Your home is insulated to keep heat in during winter, sidewalks and roads aren't. Your idea would probably cool the ground more than it would warm the roads.

Underground water is roughly 55 degrees, how the f*** would 55 degree water cool roads below, say, 35 degrees?

You're only making my point that you have a woeful understanding of even the most basic parts of Earth sciences. You could have google searched this but instead just decided for this instead.
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kernals12

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #159 on: December 30, 2020, 05:15:08 PM »

At least one town in Michigan has a heated road system.

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

They've spent millions, to melt the snow in small parts of the city.  Not miles of roadway, only some city blocks.  Also, the heat currently comes from a coal-fired power plant - at least that is being replaced by natural gas.

I wonder if there is a way to use geothermal heat for this. It would still be expensive as hell but would not use carbon-intensive resources.

And by geothermal heating, I mean in the style that heats homes, not the electricity generated from hot water deep underground.

Your home is insulated to keep heat in during winter, sidewalks and roads aren't. Your idea would probably cool the ground more than it would warm the roads.

Underground water is roughly 55 degrees, how the f*** would 55 degree water cool roads below, say, 35 degrees?

You're only making my point that you have a woeful understanding of even the most basic parts of Earth sciences. You could have google searched this but instead just decided for this instead.

I said it would cool the ground, not the roads. After your 55 degree water is exposed to 35 degree ambient temperatures, it would not be 55 degrees anymore.
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hbelkins

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #160 on: December 30, 2020, 05:19:02 PM »

So much here that I can't go back and quote, but to touch on a few topics:

Quote
construction season

For large grade and drain projects, Kentucky awards road construction projects with completion dates specified as a certain number of "working days." This excludes the months of December through March, along with inclement weather days during the other eight months. But many of the crews will work during the winter if the weather cooperates (and some work, like tree clearing, has to be done in the winter due to bat habitat regulations). We've been able to get some projects completed ahead of the calendar estimates if crews were able to work during winter months if we had mild temperatures and light precipitation.

Quote
home temperatures

Do homes in Florida have heating systems? This is a serious question. I know it rarely gets really cold in Florida, so i wonder if homes are built with heating systems, or do people rely on space heaters or portable kerosene heating units if they encounter a cool snap?

Quote
heated roads

We had "magic sidewalks" on the campus of Morehead State University. Many of the dorms were heated via a steam system, and the steam pipes ran from the central plant to the dorms under the sidewalks. So the main sidewalks from one end of campus to the other stayed clear of snow in the winter. Of course the heat got turned on at a certain time of year, and turned off at a certain time of the year, in a central location. So if it turned cool before officlal heating season, or a cool snap happened after the heat was turned off, the dorms were cold unless you had a space heater in your room.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #161 on: December 30, 2020, 05:44:48 PM »

When I lived in Key West I didn't have a heater.  The one time it dipped into the 40s after a major storm it was pretty damn miserable not having it due to the lack of insulation.  I had a heater in Orlando and when I lived north of Tampa.  It wasn't too uncommon to see nights in the 30s (sometimes the 20s) during the winter on the mainland.
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SectorZ

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #162 on: December 30, 2020, 07:19:34 PM »

At least one town in Michigan has a heated road system.

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

They've spent millions, to melt the snow in small parts of the city.  Not miles of roadway, only some city blocks.  Also, the heat currently comes from a coal-fired power plant - at least that is being replaced by natural gas.

I wonder if there is a way to use geothermal heat for this. It would still be expensive as hell but would not use carbon-intensive resources.

And by geothermal heating, I mean in the style that heats homes, not the electricity generated from hot water deep underground.

Your home is insulated to keep heat in during winter, sidewalks and roads aren't. Your idea would probably cool the ground more than it would warm the roads.

Underground water is roughly 55 degrees, how the f*** would 55 degree water cool roads below, say, 35 degrees?

You're only making my point that you have a woeful understanding of even the most basic parts of Earth sciences. You could have google searched this but instead just decided for this instead.

I said it would cool the ground, not the roads. After your 55 degree water is exposed to 35 degree ambient temperatures, it would not be 55 degrees anymore.

How would warm water cool the ground or the roads? The ground is coldest at the surface due to its interaction with cold air. The point of a closed geothermal loop would be to warm from underneath without directly exposing it to the cold air, with the loop circulating the warm water upward and the cool water downward. Water retains heat much better, six times the rate of air. Also, the loops would be under the roads, not ground without a road above it, hence there is no ground to "cool".

I know we're talking theoretical tech here, but for the love of all that is holy look up how a geothermal heating system works.
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kernals12

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #163 on: December 30, 2020, 07:35:11 PM »

At least one town in Michigan has a heated road system.

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

They've spent millions, to melt the snow in small parts of the city.  Not miles of roadway, only some city blocks.  Also, the heat currently comes from a coal-fired power plant - at least that is being replaced by natural gas.

I wonder if there is a way to use geothermal heat for this. It would still be expensive as hell but would not use carbon-intensive resources.

And by geothermal heating, I mean in the style that heats homes, not the electricity generated from hot water deep underground.

Your home is insulated to keep heat in during winter, sidewalks and roads aren't. Your idea would probably cool the ground more than it would warm the roads.

Underground water is roughly 55 degrees, how the f*** would 55 degree water cool roads below, say, 35 degrees?

You're only making my point that you have a woeful understanding of even the most basic parts of Earth sciences. You could have google searched this but instead just decided for this instead.

I said it would cool the ground, not the roads. After your 55 degree water is exposed to 35 degree ambient temperatures, it would not be 55 degrees anymore.

How would warm water cool the ground or the roads? The ground is coldest at the surface due to its interaction with cold air. The point of a closed geothermal loop would be to warm from underneath without directly exposing it to the cold air, with the loop circulating the warm water upward and the cool water downward. Water retains heat much better, six times the rate of air. Also, the loops would be under the roads, not ground without a road above it, hence there is no ground to "cool".

I know we're talking theoretical tech here, but for the love of all that is holy look up how a geothermal heating system works.

Heat transfer. In the same way that opening the door of your 70 degree house when it's 30 degrees outside will make your house colder, not warm up the outdoors.
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US 89

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #164 on: December 30, 2020, 07:43:35 PM »

I have a degree in meteorology and every time you post something that doesn't remotely equate to the realities of the natural world I die a little inside.

As a meteorology student myself I feel the exact same thing.

How would warm water cool the ground or the roads? The ground is coldest at the surface due to its interaction with cold air. The point of a closed geothermal loop would be to warm from underneath without directly exposing it to the cold air, with the loop circulating the warm water upward and the cool water downward. Water retains heat much better, six times the rate of air. Also, the loops would be under the roads, not ground without a road above it, hence there is no ground to "cool".

I know we're talking theoretical tech here, but for the love of all that is holy look up how a geothermal heating system works.

Heat transfer. In the same way that opening the door of your 70 degree house when it's 30 degrees outside will make your house colder, not warm up the outdoors.

I'm not sure I even understand what you're trying to say. You're saying that if I send water into the earth, it warms up, then I bring it back up to the surface where it's colder, it will cool the air around it? The point of a geothermal heating system is to transfer some of that ambient heat underground up to the surface where the environmental temperature is colder.

kernals12

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #165 on: December 30, 2020, 07:57:33 PM »

I have a degree in meteorology and every time you post something that doesn't remotely equate to the realities of the natural world I die a little inside.

As a meteorology student myself I feel the exact same thing.

How would warm water cool the ground or the roads? The ground is coldest at the surface due to its interaction with cold air. The point of a closed geothermal loop would be to warm from underneath without directly exposing it to the cold air, with the loop circulating the warm water upward and the cool water downward. Water retains heat much better, six times the rate of air. Also, the loops would be under the roads, not ground without a road above it, hence there is no ground to "cool".

I know we're talking theoretical tech here, but for the love of all that is holy look up how a geothermal heating system works.

Heat transfer. In the same way that opening the door of your 70 degree house when it's 30 degrees outside will make your house colder, not warm up the outdoors.

I'm not sure I even understand what you're trying to say. You're saying that if I send water into the earth, it warms up, then I bring it back up to the surface where it's colder, it will cool the air around it? The point of a geothermal heating system is to transfer some of that ambient heat underground up to the surface where the environmental temperature is colder.

No I'm saying the air around it will cool the water. And given how much heat you'd need to transfer from the ground to the road to keep it above freezing, I'm saying you'll quickly run out of heat in the ground it would fall to ambient temperature.
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vdeane

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #166 on: December 30, 2020, 09:44:27 PM »

No I'm saying the air around it will cool the water. And given how much heat you'd need to transfer from the ground to the road to keep it above freezing, I'm saying you'll quickly run out of heat in the ground it would fall to ambient temperature.
Keep in mind that the specific heat of water is higher than any other common substance (and a LOT higher than that of air).  There's a reason why water of a given temperature feels significantly colder than air at the same temperature.
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ET21

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #167 on: December 31, 2020, 12:49:46 PM »

I have a degree in meteorology and every time you post something that doesn't remotely equate to the realities of the natural world I die a little inside.

As a meteorology student myself I feel the exact same thing.

As a met alum, I feel the same way. As Rothman said, "This thread is a nonsense tornado."
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Scott5114

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #168 on: January 01, 2021, 04:41:07 AM »

Tony the Tiger said Frosted Flakes are "grrrreat", and holds Humid Flakes and Heat Flakes in such contempt that he has no comment on them. Therefore the OP is wrong and the thread is over.
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kernals12

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #169 on: January 01, 2021, 09:42:08 AM »

Tony the Tiger said Frosted Flakes are "grrrreat", and holds Humid Flakes and Heat Flakes in such contempt that he has no comment on them. Therefore the OP is wrong and the thread is over.

When Lou Gramm sang about a girl he didn't like, he said she was "cold as ice". But when he was super horny, he said he was "hot blooded". Therefore I am right, and now the thread is over.
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kernals12

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #170 on: January 01, 2021, 09:45:42 AM »

OP seems to be forgetting about the "heat tax" that was much more severe before the advent of air conditioning. There are plenty of natural ways to heat a space, you can use a wood stove or a fireplace. There are few natural ways to make a place like Florida remotely bearable in the summer. Old Southern architecture is a testament to the many ways that people tried to keep those places cool. A lot of the things that make "nice weather" places bearable are there because of technology and terraforming by humans. Get rid of even air conditioning and no one thinks of Miami as a "nice weather" place.

There are also the environmental hazards that these places used to present. Warm and muggy places, such as Florida, had to deal with malaria and other diseases that were rampant in hot, swampy environments. Malaria was even a threat in DC and a real worry for early occupants of the White House. Places like Arizona had to deal with a lack of water, which again is also bad. The only reason that humans can live in these places is because of us draining the swamps in Florida and the greater South, diverting water resources in the Southwest, and the widespread use of air conditioning.

The heat tax is pretty severe on the surrounding environment.

That's not natural
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SectorZ

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #171 on: January 01, 2021, 10:07:35 AM »

Tony the Tiger said Frosted Flakes are "grrrreat", and holds Humid Flakes and Heat Flakes in such contempt that he has no comment on them. Therefore the OP is wrong and the thread is over.

When Lou Gramm sang about a girl he didn't like, he said she was "cold as ice". But when he was super horny, he said he was "hot blooded". Therefore I am right, and now the thread is over.

Foreigner also had a scantily clad woman draped over urinals in a men's bathroom on an album cover. I wouldn't take Lou Gramm for advice on how to view women...
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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #172 on: January 01, 2021, 05:47:27 PM »

Therefore I am right, and now the thread is over.

you got it, chief
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