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Author Topic: The Frost Tax  (Read 17896 times)

Max Rockatansky

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2020, 09:51:49 AM »

Actually I rather like the cold.  I have to use way less water while distance running, cycling, or hiking.  Given most regular folks prefer warm conditions they usually stay at home which provided me with quieter locales to travel to.

You live in California, what you consider cold is not cold.

I run every morning before sunrise in the winter when it averages a typical 28-37F.  I also go places like Yosemite on the regular where I can fully assure you that it is often below freezing. 

Regarding your supposed Frost Tax I do obviously have cold weather clothes and hiking gear.  I also have an all wheel drive car, winter coded tires, and snow chains for winter driving conditions.   All of those items are one time costs and fairly nominal.  Iíd wager that the cost is far offset by not having to blast an air conditioner in summer months like many people do to the tune of $300-$400 a month in desert/sub-tropical climates.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 09:59:19 AM by Max Rockatansky »
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kernals12

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2020, 09:56:47 AM »

OP seems to be forgetting about the "heat tax" that was much more severe before the advent of air conditioning. There are plenty of natural ways to heat a space, you can use a wood stove or a fireplace. There are few natural ways to make a place like Florida remotely bearable in the summer. Old Southern architecture is a testament to the many ways that people tried to keep those places cool. A lot of the things that make "nice weather" places bearable are there because of technology and terraforming by humans. Get rid of even air conditioning and no one thinks of Miami as a "nice weather" place.

There are also the environmental hazards that these places used to present. Warm and muggy places, such as Florida, had to deal with malaria and other diseases that were rampant in hot, swampy environments. Malaria was even a threat in DC and a real worry for early occupants of the White House. Places like Arizona had to deal with a lack of water, which again is also bad. The only reason that humans can live in these places is because of us draining the swamps in Florida and the greater South, diverting water resources in the Southwest, and the widespread use of air conditioning.

The heat tax is pretty severe on the surrounding environment.

Also, in relative terms, the frost tax has become more severe. Horses and buggies were able to handle dirt roads even with several inches of snow. But automobiles, because they go so much faster, need paved roads and will lose control on even a small amount of snow or ice. And airplanes need ice free runways. So snow removal and freeze thaw damage to asphalt has become much more of a problem.

So thanks to our technology, the optimal temperature for human civilization has risen substantially to about 68-72 degrees fahrenheit.
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kalvado

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2020, 10:05:09 AM »

Don't forget the economic and health damages from road salt, because no one even wants to consider an alternative. That's my biggest problem with winter, and it's not even winter's fault, it's humanity's.

And by "health effects", I'll speak of the air quality alerts that pop up in the Conn. River valley and Cheshire County NH periodically in the winter when it's been dry for a while after a large snow storm, and that salt starts becoming routinely kicked up. The tasty fog in the valleys is just awesome.

Is there anything as effective as road salt that's better for the environment? And if there is, where was it in the 70s when several highways in New England were cancelled for fear of contaminating water supplies with road salt.
A few things...
1. Less salt. There is definitely a substance abuse here. Wiser application, such as spraying brine on pavement before the snowfall, is also a part of the equation. Chunks of salt seating on the road for a while don't speak efficiency.
2. Snow tires. Maybe not an easy opinion logistics wise. Lower speed. I definitely want the nearby interstate to be black ASAP after the storm, but my side street can go down to 15 MPH for some time. Interstates and arterials may be a fraction of overall lane-miles. I don't know if wheel chains and tyre studs would be a net benefit, but that is another point to consider.
3. Sand/gravel on the road may be not the best idea, but may work as well in certain areas

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kernals12

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2020, 10:06:16 AM »

Actually I rather like the cold.  I have to use way less water while distance running, cycling, or hiking.  Given most regular folks prefer warm conditions they usually stay at home which provided me with quieter locales to travel to.

You live in California, what you consider cold is not cold.

I run every morning before sunrise in the winter when it averages a typical 28-37F.  I also go places like Yosemite on the regular where I can fully assure you that it is often below freezing. 

Regarding your supposed Frost Tax I do obviously have cold weather clothes and hiking gear.  I also have an all wheel drive car, winter coded tires, and snow chains for winter driving conditions.   All of those items are one time costs and fairly nominal.  Iíd wager that the cost is far offset by not having to blast an air conditioner in summer months like many people do to the tune of $300-$400 a month in desert/sub-tropical climates.

The average temperature here in Massachusetts is about 51 degrees Fahrenheit. Since optimal temperature is 70 degrees, that means we Bay Staters use a lot more energy for heating than cooling. And we haven't gotten into the cost of damage to the roads by freeze thaw cycles which should be of concern to members of this forum.
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kernals12

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2020, 10:08:44 AM »

Don't forget the economic and health damages from road salt, because no one even wants to consider an alternative. That's my biggest problem with winter, and it's not even winter's fault, it's humanity's.

And by "health effects", I'll speak of the air quality alerts that pop up in the Conn. River valley and Cheshire County NH periodically in the winter when it's been dry for a while after a large snow storm, and that salt starts becoming routinely kicked up. The tasty fog in the valleys is just awesome.

Is there anything as effective as road salt that's better for the environment? And if there is, where was it in the 70s when several highways in New England were cancelled for fear of contaminating water supplies with road salt.
A few things...
1. Less salt. There is definitely a substance abuse here. Wiser application, such as spraying brine on pavement before the snowfall, is also a part of the equation. Chunks of salt seating on the road for a while don't speak efficiency.
2. Snow tires. Maybe not an easy opinion logistics wise. Lower speed. I definitely want the nearby interstate to be black ASAP after the storm, but my side street can go down to 15 MPH for some time. Interstates and arterials may be a fraction of overall lane-miles. I don't know if wheel chains and tyre studs would be a net benefit, but that is another point to consider.
3. Sand/gravel on the road may be not the best idea, but may work as well in certain areas

Exactly, road salt may be terrible for the environment, but it is the best way to keep the roads from getting slippery.

They have developed an asphalt additive that has its own de-icing properties though.
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kalvado

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2020, 10:13:16 AM »

Actually I rather like the cold.  I have to use way less water while distance running, cycling, or hiking.  Given most regular folks prefer warm conditions they usually stay at home which provided me with quieter locales to travel to.

You live in California, what you consider cold is not cold.

I run every morning before sunrise in the winter when it averages a typical 28-37F.  I also go places like Yosemite on the regular where I can fully assure you that it is often below freezing. 

Regarding your supposed Frost Tax I do obviously have cold weather clothes and hiking gear.  I also have an all wheel drive car, winter coded tires, and snow chains for winter driving conditions.   All of those items are one time costs and fairly nominal.  Iíd wager that the cost is far offset by not having to blast an air conditioner in summer months like many people do to the tune of $300-$400 a month in desert/sub-tropical climates.

The average temperature here in Massachusetts is about 51 degrees Fahrenheit. Since optimal temperature is 70 degrees, that means we Bay Staters use a lot more energy for heating than cooling. And we haven't gotten into the cost of damage to the roads by freeze thaw cycles which should be of concern to members of this forum.
It will be warmer inside the residential building than outside. 100 watts of physiological heat per person is not a small change. Things like lighting, cooking, electronics - are all sources of heat.  And cost-wise, ol'good flame is much cheaper technology compared to power station turbine, which is a must for AC.
UV of more direct sun is a different subject we don't think too much of in northeast. Organic materials - including tar - are definitely affected; and softening of darker roads under the sun is another real thing.

It is difficult  to find ideal climate. Midway islands would definitely be up there in the list, if not for commuting and communication  issues..
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kernals12

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2020, 10:14:30 AM »

Actually I rather like the cold.  I have to use way less water while distance running, cycling, or hiking.  Given most regular folks prefer warm conditions they usually stay at home which provided me with quieter locales to travel to.

You live in California, what you consider cold is not cold.

I run every morning before sunrise in the winter when it averages a typical 28-37F.  I also go places like Yosemite on the regular where I can fully assure you that it is often below freezing. 

Regarding your supposed Frost Tax I do obviously have cold weather clothes and hiking gear.  I also have an all wheel drive car, winter coded tires, and snow chains for winter driving conditions.   All of those items are one time costs and fairly nominal.  Iíd wager that the cost is far offset by not having to blast an air conditioner in summer months like many people do to the tune of $300-$400 a month in desert/sub-tropical climates.

The average temperature here in Massachusetts is about 51 degrees Fahrenheit. Since optimal temperature is 70 degrees, that means we Bay Staters use a lot more energy for heating than cooling. And we haven't gotten into the cost of damage to the roads by freeze thaw cycles which should be of concern to members of this forum.
It will be warmer inside the residential building than outside. 100 watts of physiological heat per person is not a small change. Things like lighting, cooking, electronics - are all sources of heat.  And cost-wise, ol'good flame is much cheaper technology compared to power station turbine, which is a must for AC.
UV of more direct sun is a different subject we don't think too much of in northeast. Organic materials - including tar - are definitely affected; and softening of darker roads under the sun is another real thing.

It is difficult  to find ideal climate. Midway islands would definitely be up there in the list, if not for commuting and communication  issues..

I think Southern California has the best weather in the world.
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kalvado

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2020, 10:14:35 AM »


They have developed an asphalt additive that has its own de-icing properties though.
Which is asphalt impregnated with salt, which is released for a few months after paving. Make sure to repave next fall.
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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2020, 10:15:06 AM »

It is difficult  to find ideal climate. Midway islands would definitely be up there in the list, if not for commuting and communication  issues..

I identified in a previous thread Port Angeles, WA. Mild temperatures, but not as much rain as Seattle. The only two disadvantages are high earthquake risk and that when they do get snow (which is rare), they aren't prepared.

I think Southern California has the best weather in the world.

Weather, yes. Climate, drought is a major issue.
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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2020, 10:22:37 AM »

And let us not forget about the tens of millions of Americans who have been displaced by the unbearable winters in the North...

In 1950, 55% of Americans lived in the Northeast or Midwest, but today it's just 38%, a difference of 56 million. 56 million climate refugees.

"Displaced"? You make our winters sound worse than Hurricane Katrina. They can be a drag, but are by no means "unbearable". If not for air conditioning, summers in the South would be worse.

And there aren't 56 million "climate refugees", or even close to that number. You're assuming people moving south is the only reason for the shift, but that's not true. Not only is the entire population still growing (56 million today does not equal 56 million in 1950), natural population growth is faster in the South, and you've got international migration to consider as well.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2020, 10:53:27 AM »

Actually I rather like the cold.  I have to use way less water while distance running, cycling, or hiking.  Given most regular folks prefer warm conditions they usually stay at home which provided me with quieter locales to travel to.

You live in California, what you consider cold is not cold.

I run every morning before sunrise in the winter when it averages a typical 28-37F.  I also go places like Yosemite on the regular where I can fully assure you that it is often below freezing. 

Regarding your supposed Frost Tax I do obviously have cold weather clothes and hiking gear.  I also have an all wheel drive car, winter coded tires, and snow chains for winter driving conditions.   All of those items are one time costs and fairly nominal.  Iíd wager that the cost is far offset by not having to blast an air conditioner in summer months like many people do to the tune of $300-$400 a month in desert/sub-tropical climates.

The average temperature here in Massachusetts is about 51 degrees Fahrenheit. Since optimal temperature is 70 degrees, that means we Bay Staters use a lot more energy for heating than cooling. And we haven't gotten into the cost of damage to the roads by freeze thaw cycles which should be of concern to members of this forum.
It will be warmer inside the residential building than outside. 100 watts of physiological heat per person is not a small change. Things like lighting, cooking, electronics - are all sources of heat.  And cost-wise, ol'good flame is much cheaper technology compared to power station turbine, which is a must for AC.
UV of more direct sun is a different subject we don't think too much of in northeast. Organic materials - including tar - are definitely affected; and softening of darker roads under the sun is another real thing.

It is difficult  to find ideal climate. Midway islands would definitely be up there in the list, if not for commuting and communication  issues..

I think Southern California has the best weather in the world.

Itís less than ideal when you have Air Quality Indexís in the summer ranging from 150-450 due to wild fires.  Thatís wild fire issue is not exclusive to California either, that was a similar phenomenon in the Phoenix Area as well when I lived there.  I also think that youíre under the mistaken perception that all of California resembles San Fernando Valley in terms of climate.  The example I have above regarding where I live is San Joaquin Valley.  It is far colder here in the winter than the Los Angeles Metro Area in the winter courtesy of sinking cold air from the Sierra Nevada Mountains (see Tule Fog for an example).  In the summer it is often hotter and resembles a desert with temperatures regularly over 100F. 
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 10:56:05 AM by Max Rockatansky »
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SectorZ

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2020, 10:58:37 AM »

Kind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.
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kernals12

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2020, 11:05:07 AM »

Kind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

I'm 23 years old and have struggled to find permanent employment since I graduated from college so I can't move out of my parent's house which is in Massachusetts. And there's lots to like about this state, with its forests, its strong knowledge economy, and its progressive values.
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SectorZ

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2020, 11:20:02 AM »

Kind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

I'm 23 years old and have struggled to find permanent employment since I graduated from college so I can't move out of my parent's house which is in Massachusetts. And there's lots to like about this state, with its forests, its strong knowledge economy, and its progressive values.

Rooting for climate change. Much progressive.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2020, 11:24:16 AM »

Kind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

I'm 23 years old and have struggled to find permanent employment since I graduated from college so I can't move out of my parent's house which is in Massachusetts. And there's lots to like about this state, with its forests, its strong knowledge economy, and its progressive values.

Rooting for climate change. Much progressive.

Thatís an interesting take isnít it?  That might make things in Massachusetts slightly more balmy, but what about all those other cities that suddenly would be in desert climates or might even be flooded over by sea level rise?  Then again all those polar ice caps melting might have the opposite effect and begin to shut down the oceanic current. 
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kernals12

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2020, 11:25:27 AM »

Kind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

I'm 23 years old and have struggled to find permanent employment since I graduated from college so I can't move out of my parent's house which is in Massachusetts. And there's lots to like about this state, with its forests, its strong knowledge economy, and its progressive values.

Rooting for climate change. Much progressive.

I don't have to agree with the progressive consensus on everything. As you can see by my tag, I also think we spend too much money on mass transit.
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SectorZ

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2020, 11:26:31 AM »

Kind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

I'm 23 years old and have struggled to find permanent employment since I graduated from college so I can't move out of my parent's house which is in Massachusetts. And there's lots to like about this state, with its forests, its strong knowledge economy, and its progressive values.

Rooting for climate change. Much progressive.

Thatís an interesting take isnít it?  That might make things in Massachusetts slightly more balmy, but what about all those other cities that suddenly would be in desert climates or might even be flooded over by sea level rise?  Then again all those polar ice caps melting might have the opposite effect and begin to shut down the oceanic current.

That was a sarcastic response to kernals...
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formulanone

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2020, 11:26:42 AM »

Gee, if only we had a way to legally move around to places with higher ambient temperatures and tolerable pressures.

I guess we'll never know.
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SectorZ

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2020, 11:29:34 AM »

Gee, if only we had a way to legally move around to places in the same country where atomic structures are allowed move more freely due to higher ambient temperatures and tolerable pressures.

I guess we'll never know.

Exactly. Considering this country literally has almost every style of weather you could ask for, outside of 90F degree dew points like the Arabian Sea/Persian Gulf coastline and the -120F temps of central Antarctica.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2020, 11:34:52 AM »

Gee, if only we had a way to legally move around to places in the same country where atomic structures are allowed move more freely due to higher ambient temperatures and tolerable pressures.

I guess we'll never know.

Exactly. Considering this country literally has almost every style of weather you could ask for, outside of 90F degree dew points like the Arabian Sea/Persian Gulf coastline and the -120F temps of central Antarctica.

Hell I did it when I was 18 when I moved from Lansing to Phoenix.  I had to use my savings to pull it off, but it is possible.  It was essentially taking a vow of poverty for about three years until I established in my career but it can be done.
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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2020, 11:36:07 AM »

Gee, if only we had a way to legally move around to places in the same country where atomic structures are allowed move more freely due to higher ambient temperatures and tolerable pressures.

I guess we'll never know.

Exactly. Considering this country literally has almost every style of weather you could ask for, outside of 90F degree dew points like the Arabian Sea/Persian Gulf coastline and the -120F temps of central Antarctica.

I don't think anything in the US matches Mexico City's climate (the result of tropical + high elevation), which is actually one of the better ones.
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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2020, 11:38:51 AM »

Just about everywhere in the US west of the 100th meridian depends on a winter's worth of mountain snowpack for water. So we don't complain when it snows.

Summer heat is no walk in the park, either. Heat is the #1 weather-related killer every year in the US. People are more likely to recreate outside in summer and get injured doing so. Air conditioning is expensive - and get enough people to run their a/c during a big heat wave, and you might overwhelm the local electrical grids. Hot weather often causes roads to buckle and makes tires more likely to burst. I could go on...

No it's not, 17 times more deaths are caused by extreme cold than heat

That is false. Citing the National Weather Service, which publicizes this statistic every time there's a heatwave in summer:



I realize they put "winter" and "cold" separately, but even adding them together doesn't get above heat. Your study includes indirect deaths that can't really be attributed definitively. Would that guy have had his heart attack if it were 5 degrees warmer? Who knows.

As for salt alternatives: sand. It doesn't melt snow in the way salt does, but it does allow for better traction and it works at all temperatures. Salt theoretically melts ice down to -6F but actually loses a lot of its effectiveness below about 20. This is why DOTs in some very cold states such as Montana don't even bother to salt.

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2020, 01:17:09 PM »

Snowfall helps to fill the water supply back up in the Great Lakes and other lakes, and of course snow up in the Rockies later melts and flows down the mountains to be water supplies, also

The Freeze-Thaw cycle is important to our way of life

Florida does just fine without them.

Two completely different climates bud. A freeze-thaw cycle is part of life for much of the northern US. Climates similar to Florida's are adapted to live where a freeze is considered harmful in some cases especially amongst citrus farmers for example
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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2020, 01:44:09 PM »

Kind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

I'm 23 years old and have struggled to find permanent employment since I graduated from college so I can't move out of my parent's house which is in Massachusetts. And there's lots to like about this state, with its forests, its strong knowledge economy, and its progressive values.

Rooting for climate change. Much progressive.

Thatís an interesting take isnít it?  That might make things in Massachusetts slightly more balmy, but what about all those other cities that suddenly would be in desert climates or might even be flooded over by sea level rise?  Then again all those polar ice caps melting might have the opposite effect and begin to shut down the oceanic current.

Deserts are created by a lack of rain, not by heat. And with 2 degrees of warming, sea level rise would be about 18 inches by 2100, which is completely manageable. I would recommend we do this
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: The Frost Tax
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2020, 02:02:07 PM »

Kind of curious, if you hate winter so much, why stay in Massaschusetts?

I dislike the winter, but I've never decided to make a list of why it sucks in an effort to argue for, what I can only assume, is some quest to geo-engineer winter out of the climate. My beef, as stated earlier, is how the government reacts to it, which is (theoretically) resolvable.

I'm 23 years old and have struggled to find permanent employment since I graduated from college so I can't move out of my parent's house which is in Massachusetts. And there's lots to like about this state, with its forests, its strong knowledge economy, and its progressive values.

Rooting for climate change. Much progressive.

Thatís an interesting take isnít it?  That might make things in Massachusetts slightly more balmy, but what about all those other cities that suddenly would be in desert climates or might even be flooded over by sea level rise?  Then again all those polar ice caps melting might have the opposite effect and begin to shut down the oceanic current.

Deserts are created by a lack of rain, not by heat. And with 2 degrees of warming, sea level rise would be about 18 inches by 2100, which is completely manageable. I would recommend we do this

There is a whole lot of places just in the United States that are classified as Mediterranean that potentially dip into desert territory if a prolonged drought becomes the new normalized climate.  While not exactly full climate change (upstream diversions play a part) related I would point to the Central Valley California which historically has just hovered above 10 inches annually in terms of precipitation.  What happens when that dips below 10 inches a year for good and the water supply from snow melt off dwindles?  Iíd argue that the beginning of that desertification has already been underway for some time. 

Regarding the flooding of coastlines, yes from all current data Iíve seen it suggests nothing in my lifetime will lead to a major abandonment.  Thatís the problem with playing the short game with climate and geology, youíre not factoring what happens when youíre gone.  I canít imagine places like New Orleans and Miami will be viable for long after the start of the 22nd Century.
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