Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?

[US 89]

i guess what i really don't get about the fyas... is that it seems they come on at times when making a left is more or less impossible..

example. i'm in the NB left turn lane on

• street. SB lanes get green light and green arrow. i'm shown an FYA. whats the point? there's no way anyone can make a left in the face of the oncoming traffic thats just starting from the light. seems like there should be a delay, at least until my side gets the green ball.
  

There may not be enough oncoming traffic to last the entire length of the green arrow phase.

[jakeroot]

Flashing amber arrows exist in Ireland I guess!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIW-ZjrO7wk

That's very neat! I don't recall seeing any examples of flashing yellow arrows (used in the way we use them!) outside of the US before. Gotta wonder if they were inspired by US signalization strategies or not.

[fwydriver405]

Flashing amber arrows exist in Ireland I guess!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIW-ZjrO7wk

That's very neat! I don't recall seeing any examples of flashing yellow arrows (used in the way we use them!) outside of the US before. Gotta wonder if they were inspired by US signalization strategies or not.

Kinda reminds me of this video I saw a few years ago (not sure if this is the UK or Ireland) of FYA being used on a slip ramp:

[jakeroot]

^^^
That would be Ireland. Giveaway being the shape of the arrow, the signal housing design, and the lack of any yellow number plates on the rear of the vehicles.

Looks like they've been using the FYA for a little while.

[jamess]

i guess what i really don't get about the fyas... is that it seems they come on at times when making a left is more or less impossible..

example. i'm in the NB left turn lane on

• street. SB lanes get green light and green arrow. i'm shown an FYA. whats the point? there's no way anyone can make a left in the face of the oncoming traffic thats just starting from the light. seems like there should be a delay, at least until my side gets the green ball.
  

It seems like the FYA arent make use of traffic detection. Why not? If the detection camera/sensors sees there are vehicles, it shouldnt show the FYA.

But you don't have to stop on a flashing yellow arrow. All you have to do is yield to pedestrians and oncoming traffic... which you would also have to do making a left on a flashing yellow light.

Drivers are not able to both monitor oncoming traffic for a gap AND also monitor the sidewalk behind them for an oncoming bicyclist or pedestrian that will be entering the roadway when they begin their turn without coming to a stop.

[roadfro]

i guess what i really don't get about the fyas... is that it seems they come on at times when making a left is more or less impossible..

example. i'm in the NB left turn lane on

• street. SB lanes get green light and green arrow. i'm shown an FYA. whats the point? there's no way anyone can make a left in the face of the oncoming traffic thats just starting from the light. seems like there should be a delay, at least until my side gets the green ball.
  

It seems like the FYA arent make use of traffic detection. Why not? If the detection camera/sensors sees there are vehicles, it shouldnt show the FYA.

This is probably covered in more detail somewhere upthread, but... The FYA display is typically tied to the opposing green, to indicate that the left turns can yield on opposing green (whether there's a gap or not). There's no need to have it display red initially, because there can be gaps...and then this would be no better than a protected signal.

[Scott5114]

example. i'm in the NB left turn lane on

• street.
  

how on earth do you pronounce that street name

[US 89]

But you don't have to stop on a flashing yellow arrow. All you have to do is yield to pedestrians and oncoming traffic... which you would also have to do making a left on a flashing yellow light.

Drivers are not able to both monitor oncoming traffic for a gap AND also monitor the sidewalk behind them for an oncoming bicyclist or pedestrian that will be entering the roadway when they begin their turn without coming to a stop.

Disagree. Do we make drivers stop when turning left on a green ball at a light without any sort of extra left-turn signals?

Slow down, sure, but requiring a complete stop is probably unnecessary in the vast majority of cases. A flashing red would also require drivers to make that stop behind the stop line which just wastes the time of left-turning drivers and limits the amount of cars that can make it through the intersection. I'm no civil engineer but as far as I'm concerned if someplace really has enough pedestrians or oncoming traffic to warrant a full stop for left turns all the time, it's probably better to just make it protected-only.

[zachary_amaryllis]

example. i'm in the NB left turn lane on

• street.
  

how on earth do you pronounce that street name

it was a an 'x' in brackets, forgot this thing uses the brackets.. should have escaped them or something...

[kphoger]

Like if I see a flashing yellow at an intersection, it means I get to go and the other street has a stop.

No, it means you have to use caution.

[empirestate]

Like if I see a flashing yellow at an intersection, it means I get to go and the other street has a stop.

No, it means you have to use caution.

Not "no", but "also" it means you have to use caution. That's what it denotes, but what it connotes is that the intersecting road has a flashing red–and thus, a stop. So in that way, it means both.

[kphoger]

At an intersection–which |jamess| specified–yes, it means the cross street has a stop sign.

But, at any location other than an intersection, a flashing yellow ball does not mean that.  At a crosswalk, in fact, you might have to stop while the [pedestrian] cross-traffic gets to go.

[I-35]

Put me in the "like it and hate it" camp.  I like FYA's at 2:00 in the morning when no traffic is around, and I hate them on six-lane arterials with double left turns where you can't see oncoming traffic until it's almost too late to safely negotiate the turn.  I guess the fact that so many FYA are replacing protected lefts is the real issue I have.

[jamess]

Put me in the "like it and hate it" camp.  I like FYA's at 2:00 in the morning when no traffic is around, and I hate them on six-lane arterials with double left turns where you can't see oncoming traffic until it's almost too late to safely negotiate the turn.  I guess the fact that so many FYA are replacing protected lefts is the real issue I have.

Yeah thats where I stand. No issue with them from 10pm to 5am. But providing the option at rush hour is begging for risky behavior.

[empirestate]

At an intersection–which |jamess| specified–yes, it means the cross street has a stop sign.

But, at any location other than an intersection, a flashing yellow ball does not mean that.  At a crosswalk, in fact, you might have to stop while the [pedestrian] cross-traffic gets to go.

That could happen at an intersection, too. So the point is that the flashing ball means many things, not just one–and even at one location, it means different things. And the gist of the discussion was that, while a yellow ball at a crossroads means that you have priority over the traffic crossing your path but are not fully protected from it (hence the need for caution), with a yellow arrow the traffic crossing your path has priority over you, and thus there's a different need for caution.

[jakeroot]

Put me in the "like it and hate it" camp.  I like FYA's at 2:00 in the morning when no traffic is around, and I hate them on six-lane arterials with double left turns where you can't see oncoming traffic until it's almost too late to safely negotiate the turn.  I guess the fact that so many FYA are replacing protected lefts is the real issue I have.

Yeah thats where I stand. No issue with them from 10pm to 5am. But providing the option at rush hour is begging for risky behavior.

Certainly both of you realize that time of day phasing is an option with flashing yellow arrows. A couple cities around me have red arrows during peak rush hour at certain intersections. With the amount of variability in the operation, IMO, the flashing yellow arrow signal should be the only left turn display installed, as virtually zero left turns need fully protected phasing all day. But many arguably need full protection part-time, so you just disable the FYA during those hours.

[paulthemapguy]

In a presentation I watched, the DuPage County (IL) engineer has confirmed that they are looking to implement their first FYA signals soon.  Not sure if this is news to local people concerned with traffic safety, but it is news to me.

[Scott5114]

Put me in the "like it and hate it" camp.  I like FYA's at 2:00 in the morning when no traffic is around, and I hate them on six-lane arterials with double left turns where you can't see oncoming traffic until it's almost too late to safely negotiate the turn.  I guess the fact that so many FYA are replacing protected lefts is the real issue I have.

Yeah thats where I stand. No issue with them from 10pm to 5am. But providing the option at rush hour is begging for risky behavior.

Certainly both of you realize that time of day phasing is an option with flashing yellow arrows.

I mean, yeah, it's an option, but if your DOT doesn't exercise it...

Likewise, going to all-flash mode late at night is an option too. But a lot of DOTs don't seem to want to do that, either.

[jakeroot]

I can think of many practical reasons to adopt time-of-day phasing. I find it laughable that almost all agencies will happily implement an interim red arrow following the protected left, but would not consider extending that red arrow throughout the length of the through phase during exceptionally heavy traffic periods. If not to at least protect pedestrians during the initial part of a walk phase.

On the flip-side, with modern actuation technology, I do not see any major technical benefit to all-flash modes.

edit: tired, couldn't make up my mind as to the point I wanted to make.

[UCFKnights]

i guess what i really don't get about the fyas... is that it seems they come on at times when making a left is more or less impossible..

example. i'm in the NB left turn lane on

• street. SB lanes get green light and green arrow. i'm shown an FYA. whats the point? there's no way anyone can make a left in the face of the oncoming traffic thats just starting from the light. seems like there should be a delay, at least until my side gets the green ball.
  

It seems like the FYA arent make use of traffic detection. Why not? If the detection camera/sensors sees there are vehicles, it shouldnt show the FYA.

But you don't have to stop on a flashing yellow arrow. All you have to do is yield to pedestrians and oncoming traffic... which you would also have to do making a left on a flashing yellow light.

Drivers are not able to both monitor oncoming traffic for a gap AND also monitor the sidewalk behind them for an oncoming bicyclist or pedestrian that will be entering the roadway when they begin their turn without coming to a stop.

In Orlando they have a few intersections where they are testing just that, trying to detect gaps in the traffic before bothering to provide a FYA. My rating of them would  be pretty poor: they give a red way more than is necessary for any safety, and its nice for a car or 2 to be able to go during the yellow/all red period to help get an extra car through the cycle. On top of that, when they don't fairly quickly give a FYA, people assume they aren't getting it, and stop paying attention, and when the FYA comes on, they just won't go. I wouldn't be against a LPI for the pedestrians, but I see little reason to not provide the FYA all the time, even if there is traffic, as various things can happen the signal just isn't going to account for. Ya know, be permissive unless there is a reason not to.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

This intersection in Queens NYC has been updated in the past couple of weeks to incorporate split phasing using FYA (streetview not updated yet)

https://maps.app.goo.gl/LWVrKCDitKRgY1cE8

The left turns from Broadway/Grand Ave (side street) overlapped each other quite often since Queens Blvd is so wide. Now, s/b Broadway gets a green ball with FYA while n/b Grand Ave remains all red, even for left turns. Then Broadway goes all red and Grand Ave gets green ball/FYA.

During the vehicle split phase, the pedestrian phase runs as normal, hence the need for FYA instead of a green arrow. This new setup solves the problem of dangerous left turns while not impacting the heavy pedestrian traffic and avoiding yellow trap.

Does anywhere else use FYA like this for split phasing?

[tolbs17]

This intersection in Queens NYC has been updated in the past couple of weeks to incorporate split phasing using FYA (streetview not updated yet)

https://maps.app.goo.gl/LWVrKCDitKRgY1cE8

The left turns from Broadway/Grand Ave (side street) overlapped each other quite often since Queens Blvd is so wide. Now, s/b Broadway gets a green ball with FYA while n/b Grand Ave remains all red, even for left turns. Then Broadway goes all red and Grand Ave gets green ball/FYA.

During the vehicle split phase, the pedestrian phase runs as normal, hence the need for FYA instead of a green arrow. This new setup solves the problem of dangerous left turns while not impacting the heavy pedestrian traffic and avoiding yellow trap.

Does anywhere else use FYA like this for split phasing?

Yes. We have many here in North Carolina.

[tolbs17]

https://connect.ncdot.gov/resources/safety/Teppl/TEPPL%20All%20Documents%20Library/T71_DLFYA.PDF

Will they really consider this?

[jakeroot]

This intersection in Queens NYC has been updated in the past couple of weeks to incorporate split phasing using FYA (streetview not updated yet)

https://maps.app.goo.gl/LWVrKCDitKRgY1cE8

The left turns from Broadway/Grand Ave (side street) overlapped each other quite often since Queens Blvd is so wide. Now, s/b Broadway gets a green ball with FYA while n/b Grand Ave remains all red, even for left turns. Then Broadway goes all red and Grand Ave gets green ball/FYA.

During the vehicle split phase, the pedestrian phase runs as normal, hence the need for FYA instead of a green arrow. This new setup solves the problem of dangerous left turns while not impacting the heavy pedestrian traffic and avoiding yellow trap.

Does anywhere else use FYA like this for split phasing?

I have seen FYAs used for split-phased intersections exactly once. I actually filmed a video of it. It's in Federal Way, WA.

When a crossing is activated, the left turn across that crossing shows an FYA signal; the opposing direction has a full green orb + green arrow. Because of the offset nature of the intersection, it has to use split-phasing to prevent issues with through traffic overlapping with one-another. But since this issue is not apparent for traffic turning left, they innovated a bit and created what you see below:

https://youtu.be/qA7YCmfNhv4

[johndoe]

Alright here's a brainstorm for everyone:

I recently heard a traffic engineer say he wasn't thrilled about lagging FYA lefts because a comment he hears: since most drivers around here are conditioned to expect leading lefts, drivers on the lagging turn assume they got "skipped" when the signal goes from red to FYA.  Would there be a way to communicate (preferably with the normal FYA signal heads) that "yes the controller knows you're here and you're going to get a protected Green arrow before the next red"?  I feel like this is solving a problem that doesn't really exist, but maybe it would help get more fans of FYA.

(P.S. I'm not trying to debate that lagging lefts are worthwhile - they're absolutely needed to improve two-way coordination)