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Flashing green lights

Started by SkyPesos, September 18, 2021, 12:29:28 PM

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SkyPesos

Kind of wondering, which countries (or subdivisions or cities to get more specific) use flashing green lights for when a signal is about to turn yellow and red? I know a lot of cities in mainland China does this, and personally, I like it, as it gives an extra 2-3 seconds of warning time (especially for signals without a countdown timer) before the light turns red.


Not sure if this is better here or in International Highways, as I don't think the US does this at all. A mod can move if it fits better there than here.


KEK Inc.

British Columbia uses them passively to distinguish pedestrian crosswalk signals.  Confusingly, their protected left turn phase is also a flashing green.


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jakeroot

Quote from: KEK Inc. on September 18, 2021, 12:31:06 PM
British Columbia uses them passively to distinguish pedestrian crosswalk signals.  Confusingly, their protected left turn phase is also a flashing green.

True, however, the flashing green arrow is standard throughout the rest of Canada. The flashing green orb is the BC special (minus Ontario's old use of it).

The flashing green arrow is used to distinguish between the yellow and green arrows, which occupy the same position in their bimodal turn displays (used at permissive turns only).

Rothman

MA uses flashing green lights, but not for lights about to turn yellow/red.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Mr Kite

Austria still uses flashing green before amber, as does most, if not all, of the former Soviet Union. A few other European countries used to have it too but got rid of it.

I find it redundant, personally.

SkyPesos

Quote from: Mr Kite on September 18, 2021, 05:22:28 PM
I find it redundant, personally.
How? Redundant with the countdown timers on pedestrian signals?

Mr Kite

#6
Amber warns that the signal is changing to red, for the obvious reason that motorists moving at speed need time to react to the change in priority. You don't need a further warning to warn about the actual warning. Otherwise, you may as well have another warning to warn of the warning that is warning about the actual warning.

The flashing at pedestrian signals is largely analogous to the amber. Indeed, a few countries even have an amber signal for pedestrians. Flashing Don't Walk is there to reassure pedestrians that have already started crossing that they have time to finish crossing before the cross street gets green. Countdown timers provide further reassurance. Pedestrians are a lot slower than motor vehicles in traversing the intersection and also more vulnerable.

jakeroot

#7
Quote from: Mr Kite on September 19, 2021, 11:25:27 AM
Amber warns that the signal is changing to red, for the obvious reason that motorists moving at speed need time to react to the change in priority. You don't need a further warning to warn about the actual warning. Otherwise, you may as well have another warning to warn of the warning that is warning about the actual warning.

Actually, it's quite helpful in certain conditions, especially (a) signals that are around corners and (b) signals on high speed roads. It can be quite disruptive to your car and passengers braking from high speed in a matter of a couple moments because there was no warning that the signal phase was ending. Never mind drivers who cannot decide whether to slow down or go for it.

I don't agree with using the signal to warn of this, but there is ample precedent of using a warning sign to indicate this ("prepare to stop when flashing"), at least in North America (British Columbia requires the warning along roads with 70+ km/h speed limits, IIRC).

SkyPesos

Related topic, but what are your thoughts on using countdown timers to show the seconds of red or green remaining? I don't like the type that counts during the entire phase, as that restricts the signal to time their phasing, instead of using some sort of sensor to detect cars from less-traveled roads (side streets) at an intersection. But I like the type that counts down from 15 seconds (15 because the number fits perfectly in a signal head (each signal head is definitely larger than the standard 30 cm in the US, diameter may be 40 cm?, but I'm not sure. Check below image if you want to compare sizes), instead of the whole duration of a red or green line on a separate countdown clock that is done in some other cities.

BuildTheRussian

#9
Here in Russia, the traffic lights flash green 3 times before turning yellow. Almost every traffic light does that since the early 2000s. In the Soviet Union, traffic lights used to change from green straight to yellow.
Unrelated, but similar to China, many traffic lights here have countdown timers. It probably has to do with the fact that most traffic lights here are fixed-time.
My local traffic light intersection used to have a countdown timer on the traffic lights, until the traffic lights were replaced in late 2018 with newer thin LED ones. Only the pedestrian lights since then had countdown timers.
Drivers still can make use of the pedestrian countdown, because right-turning traffic always conflicts with pedestrians at that intersection.

BuildTheRussian

Quote from: SkyPesos on September 19, 2021, 03:15:20 PM
Related topic, but what are your thoughts on using countdown timers to show the seconds of red or green remaining? I don't like the type that counts during the entire phase, as that restricts the signal to time their phasing, instead of using some sort of sensor to detect cars from less-traveled roads (side streets) at an intersection. But I like the type that counts down from 15 seconds (15 because the number fits perfectly in a signal head (each signal head is definitely larger than the standard 30 cm in the US, diameter may be 40 cm?, but I'm not sure. Check below image if you want to compare sizes), instead of the whole duration of a red or green line on a separate countdown clock that is done in some other cities.


In the Netherlands, they use countdown timers even on actuated signals. The signal can turn green before the countdown has elapsed. I don't think it can turn red early though.

tradephoric

In parts of Canada a flashing green ball signifies a protected left.  Growing up in Canada i never remember seeing a flashing green arrow though but i guess that's a thing too (which seems redundant as the flashing green arrow apparently has the same meaning as a solid green arrow).  I must admit I'd be a little confused driving up to a flashing green arrow:

Flashing green arrow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEdPni61wPw

Flashing green ball:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKRHBIhkHzI&list=PLNMF9uTHX33vuTxB79NyCpwxQba-FMoIZ&index=19

jakeroot

Quote from: tradephoric on October 28, 2021, 12:55:08 PM
In parts of Canada a flashing green ball signifies a protected left.  Growing up in Canada i never remember seeing a flashing green arrow though but i guess that's a thing too (which seems redundant as the flashing green arrow apparently has the same meaning as a solid green arrow).  I must admit I'd be a little confused driving up to a flashing green arrow:

My post earlier addresses both of your concerns. Namely: the flashing green orb for an advanced left has long since been discontinued, and flashing green arrows do have meaning in some parts of Canada...

Quote from: jakeroot on September 18, 2021, 02:19:30 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on September 18, 2021, 12:31:06 PM
British Columbia uses them passively to distinguish pedestrian crosswalk signals.  Confusingly, their protected left turn phase is also a flashing green.

True, however, the flashing green arrow is standard throughout the rest of Canada. The flashing green orb is the BC special (minus Ontario's old use of it).

The flashing green arrow is used to distinguish between the yellow and green arrows, which occupy the same position in their bimodal turn displays (used at permissive turns only).

plain

Why do they have those NO LEFT TURN ON RED signs next to those dual left turn signals? Seems so unnecessary.


The only times I've been flashing green lights in person was at certain toll plazas, but that was a long time ago.
Newark born, Richmond bred

jakeroot

Quote from: plain on October 28, 2021, 02:17:46 PM
Why do they have those NO LEFT TURN ON RED signs next to those dual left turn signals? Seems so unnecessary.

It's a practice seen in a few other places across Canada. I think it's because, in some cities such as Moncton and Edmonton, the vast majority of left turns have always used "permissive" phasing, even those with double left turns. So to wait for a green arrow is kind of odd. The "no turn on red" sign was installed to further amplify the need to wait for a green arrow as some drivers may not be accustomed to doing so.

For the record, the intersection in that video (Mapleton @ Carson, Moncton, NB) was formerly a permissive left turn.

andrepoiy

Flashing green ball for protected left still exists in Ontario.

Also, flashing green arrows in Ontario are just a stylistic choice, I emailed Durham Region's Public Works asking why they used flashing greens, and they said simply that people respond faster than a normal steady green arrow.

DenverBrian

I seem to recall a flashing green left turn signal coming out of the rental car area at DTW. Of course, that whole Detroit area doesn't like left turns - they have a lot of jug handle right exits to turn left on arterials.

SidS1045

Quote from: Rothman on September 18, 2021, 04:50:58 PMMA uses flashing green lights, but not for lights about to turn yellow/red.

Not anymore, at least not officially.  There may be a few left over, but the flashing green indicator is gone from the MA MUTCD supplement and the driver's manual.  It used to be used at either intersections where pedestrians could push a button to stop all traffic and allow pedestrians to cross (the old red+yellow signal) or in front of fire houses, where the signals could be turned red to allow fire vehicles to enter the roadway.
"A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves." - Edward R. Murrow

hotdogPi

Quote from: SidS1045 on November 02, 2021, 10:28:21 AM
Quote from: Rothman on September 18, 2021, 04:50:58 PMMA uses flashing green lights, but not for lights about to turn yellow/red.

Not anymore, at least not officially.  There may be a few left over, but the flashing green indicator is gone from the MA MUTCD supplement and the driver's manual.  It used to be used at either intersections where pedestrians could push a button to stop all traffic and allow pedestrians to cross (the old red+yellow signal) or in front of fire houses, where the signals could be turned red to allow fire vehicles to enter the roadway.

There are definitely several left over.

Just a few miles from you: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5128877,-71.0847061,3a,75y,156.08h,87.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snU43oHO6XNIemHNABGz4Og!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

Rothman

Quote from: 1 on November 02, 2021, 11:35:56 AM
Quote from: SidS1045 on November 02, 2021, 10:28:21 AM
Quote from: Rothman on September 18, 2021, 04:50:58 PMMA uses flashing green lights, but not for lights about to turn yellow/red.

Not anymore, at least not officially.  There may be a few left over, but the flashing green indicator is gone from the MA MUTCD supplement and the driver's manual.  It used to be used at either intersections where pedestrians could push a button to stop all traffic and allow pedestrians to cross (the old red+yellow signal) or in front of fire houses, where the signals could be turned red to allow fire vehicles to enter the roadway.

There are definitely several left over.

Just a few miles from you: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5128877,-71.0847061,3a,75y,156.08h,87.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snU43oHO6XNIemHNABGz4Og!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Yep.  Northeast suburbs have a decent number still in operation.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

jakeroot

Quote from: andrepoiy on November 01, 2021, 10:36:57 PM
Flashing green ball for protected left still exists in Ontario.

That's true, but it's been a very long time since one was installed. At least to my knowledge.

Since I don't live in Ontario, I'm still curious to know how common they are. I've been led to believe that they are very uncommon now.

7/8

Quote from: jakeroot on November 02, 2021, 12:42:32 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on November 01, 2021, 10:36:57 PM
Flashing green ball for protected left still exists in Ontario.

That's true, but it's been a very long time since one was installed. At least to my knowledge.

Since I don't live in Ontario, I'm still curious to know how common they are. I've been led to believe that they are very uncommon now.

In my experience, they're very rare. The only one I was familiar with is Highway 26 and Bruce St in Thornbury (Google Maps), but street view shows it was replaced with an arrow sometime between 2018 and 2021.

andrepoiy

Quote from: jakeroot on November 02, 2021, 12:42:32 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on November 01, 2021, 10:36:57 PM
Flashing green ball for protected left still exists in Ontario.

That's true, but it's been a very long time since one was installed. At least to my knowledge.

Since I don't live in Ontario, I'm still curious to know how common they are. I've been led to believe that they are very uncommon now.

I don't find them that rare. They mostly exist in small-town downtowns; one example in the GTA is in Bradford, at Holland St and Barrie St (formerly Hwy 11)

jakeroot

Quote from: andrepoiy on November 02, 2021, 01:39:25 PM
I don't find them that rare. They mostly exist in small-town downtowns; one example in the GTA is in Bradford, at Holland St and Barrie St (formerly Hwy 11)
Quote from: 7/8 on November 02, 2021, 12:49:07 PM
In my experience, they're very rare. The only one I was familiar with is Highway 26 and Bruce St in Thornbury (Google Maps), but street view shows it was replaced with an arrow sometime between 2018 and 2021.

It would be nice if we could come to a consensus. I would be inclined to agree with 7/8 as the flashing green arrow has been installed across Ontario for a couple decades now, if not longer. Combine the proliferation of arrow signals with BC's heavy usage of flashing green to mean something completely unrelated (and the potential for confusion for anyone that travels in both places), and I would think only a handful could possibly remain (less than 20 examples, I would guess -- a tiny fraction of the number of arrow signals).

LilianaUwU

Flashing ball for protected left is omnipresent in Québec.
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