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Author Topic: Turn on red varying by state: a guide for those outside this forum  (Read 4659 times)

andrepoiy

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Re: Turn on red varying by state: a guide for those outside this forum
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2021, 08:34:38 PM »


There are no red arrows in Ontario, so that part's irrelevant.

We do have some intersections with protected rights, which is equivalent to red arrows, though somewhat rare.

Here's a new one at Bloor and Parkside

« Last Edit: November 24, 2021, 08:37:39 PM by andrepoiy »
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mrsman

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Re: Turn on red varying by state: a guide for those outside this forum
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2021, 10:03:37 AM »

In New York it helps to know that NYC uses strictly 1950s era mast arms(and old analog click box controllers still, but another story) and the rest of the state uses span wire. So if you are in question look at the signal wires or mast arms along city borders, hence Nassau- Queens and Westchester- Bronx. 

The best place to see the difference is where US 1 enters NYC, as you have a NYC mast arm and a neighbor’s span wire within eyesight of each other.  So you know which one is blanketed and which one isn’t.  Even on NY 27 where NYCs first signal west of Valley Stream, NY and Valley Stream’s first signal east of NYC that are over a mile apart, the former has yellow heads on mast arms while the latter is dark green heads on span wiring to denote you crossed the city line between the two laws.
It's not that simple.  Lots of mast arms upstate, despite use of span wire.

Not 1950 vintage era mast arms they don’t. Even Yonkers has mast arms, but not the same as the Bronx down the street.
315 W 1st St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EDeFLKSvyE9iuvvx7

That's clearly different from the NYC design which uses guy wires and a curved mast arm, this is a truss arm that looks more like something you'd see in NJ.
Good for Roadgeeks, not for the traveling public.

Agreed.  I've complained on this forum before, but giving NYC a blanket restriction on RTOR was wrong.  Each intersection should be evaluated based on its individual circumstances and then signs need to be clearly placed saying "no turn on red" at that intersection.

Now, of course, there are plenty of pedestrians in NYC, so for many intersections it makes sense in the name of pedestrian safety to have a NTOR restrction in places like Manhattan, most of Brooklyn, and significant portions of Queens and Bronx.  On the other hand, most intersections in the outer parts of the outer boroughs, eastern Bronx, eastern Queens, and basically all of SI outside of St George.  Most signalized T intersections woule probably also allow RTOR since the drivers making the right only need to be concerned with pedestrians and not both pedestrians and cross traffic, since there is no cross traffic. 
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7/8

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Re: Turn on red varying by state: a guide for those outside this forum
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2021, 10:33:34 PM »


There are no red arrows in Ontario, so that part's irrelevant.

We do have some intersections with protected rights, which is equivalent to red arrows, though somewhat rare.

Here's a new one at Bloor and Parkside



That's true, though I'd argue the NROR sign still makes the original question irrelevant.

However, on street view, I noticed at 8 and 24 in Cambridge, westbound on 8 doesn't have the NROR sign beside the right turn signal. Link. I assume without the sign, you can turn right on red, which would be our equivalent of a right on red arrow.

EDIT: Now I'm doubting myself lol. With the stop bar being so far back (with a "stop here on red" sign too), I feel like I'd probably not do the right on red. I wonder why they wouldn't just include a NROR sign? I'm honestly not sure if it's allowed or not.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 10:29:55 AM by 7/8 »
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1995hoo

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Re: Turn on red varying by state: a guide for those outside this forum
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2021, 08:24:10 AM »

Then New York City it’s illegal period to turn right on red.

Unless a sign authorizes it, that is. As of August 2019, there were 336 such locations—198 in Staten Island, 58 in Brooklyn, 55 in Queens, 19 in the Bronx, and 6 in Manhattan. There were also nine locations where you could go left on red—seven on Cross Bay Boulevard in Broad Channel and two on Adam Clayton Powell Jr. Boulevard in Harlem. Here's one of the ones in Broad Channel.

….

I was curious why left on red is permitted at the location seen above and several other like it in Broad Channel, seeing as how you’re going left from a two-way street. It seems the reason is that Cross Bay Boulevard used to have six lanes, but was narrowed to four lanes to allow for turn lanes. But turn arrows were not installed when they did that because the electrical system in that part of Queens was old and couldn’t handle the increased load, so lefts on red were allowed as a compromise to reduce wait time. The traffic is relatively low in that area anyway.
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Mr Kite

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Re: Turn on red varying by state: a guide for those outside this forum
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2021, 10:59:49 AM »

Agreed.  I've complained on this forum before, but giving NYC a blanket restriction on RTOR was wrong.  Each intersection should be evaluated based on its individual circumstances and then signs need to be clearly placed saying "no turn on red" at that intersection.

Now, of course, there are plenty of pedestrians in NYC, so for many intersections it makes sense in the name of pedestrian safety to have a NTOR restrction in places like Manhattan, most of Brooklyn, and significant portions of Queens and Bronx.  On the other hand, most intersections in the outer parts of the outer boroughs, eastern Bronx, eastern Queens, and basically all of SI outside of St George.  Most signalized T intersections woule probably also allow RTOR since the drivers making the right only need to be concerned with pedestrians and not both pedestrians and cross traffic, since there is no cross traffic.

Coming from a place where it's not allowed at all, and so the very concept of going through a red light is weird to me, I think the German approach of it being banned unless a sign says otherwise is the better approach. If we were to introduce it here, that would be my preferred approach, although I still don't like the idea of it. Indeed, a few years back, Lithuania overhauled its traffic signal design, moving away from the standard inherited by the Soviet Union and pretty much imported German standards wholesale, including the sign allowing right on red. I think they've since gotten rid of it, or at least isn't allowing new instances of it, due to unfavourable accident records at these locations.
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mrsman

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Re: Turn on red varying by state: a guide for those outside this forum
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2021, 04:01:59 PM »

Sure.  Countries are sovereign and can come up with their own laws.  A country outside of the US can decide to blanket prohibit RTOR, if they desire.  And in much of Europe and/or Asia, the cities are far more dense than in the US so perhaps a blanket prohibition makes sense.

I am against the NYC exception in particular since it is different from the default rule across the rest of US, even the rest of New York State.

NYC can ban RTOR if they want, just put up a sign at each relevant intersection and do an appropriate traffic study.

Washington DC and San Francisco are exploring a wide ranging increase of NTOR.  But they are putting up signs.

https://dc.curbed.com/2019/1/3/18167368/dc-right-turns-vision-zero-traffic-safety

https://sfist.com/2019/10/19/one-san-franciscans-no-turn-on-red-petition-hopes-to-help-bolster-pedestrian-safety/

Nearly every intersection in Center City Philadelphia prohibit ROTR.  Each affected intersection has a sign.  Example:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9467459,-75.1625862,3a,37.5y,320.12h,94.73t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sPAPdnZqXNq8Qsxb2lltW3w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DPAPdnZqXNq8Qsxb2lltW3w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D223.05751%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192


Yet there are plenty of intersections in NYC that do not have singificant pedestrian crossing and are very far away from Times Square and Wall Street, yet RTOR is prohibited.  And to put salt on the wounds, the signals are on pure timers, meaning the main street will face a red light even when there is no cross traffic or cross pedestrians, and no one can move at all.

Here is one in particular

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.710466,-73.8397285,3a,75y,133.17h,85.45t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sr_xcEc3McrKmBwQ4kTGHCA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dr_xcEc3McrKmBwQ4kTGHCA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D52.335815%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

I do visit the area quite frequently as I have family nearby.  And I can tell you the signal goes red on Union Turnpike very frequently, even without a pedestrian in sight.  I can tell you that while many RTOR do have a danger element involved where a driver will have to keep track of cross traffic and cross traffic pedestrians to make a safe turn, given that this is a T intersection, there is no cross traffic to worry about.

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US 89

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Re: Turn on red varying by state: a guide for those outside this forum
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2021, 12:07:56 AM »

I feel like the best approach to turn-on-red in NYC is this:

Blanket ban on turn on red throughout Manhattan. Put up a sign at every entrance to Manhattan (there's only 22, if I'm counting right). Put up "RTOR allowed after stop" signs at any intersections where that's determined to be safe. In the other four boroughs plus Marble Hill, use the same system the rest of NY and the US use - put up NTOR signs at any intersections with lots of pedestrians or sightline conflicts or whatever, and allow turn on red everywhere else.

Unless you're very familiar with city boundaries, it's rather difficult to know where NYC ends and Westchester or Nassau County begins. It's easy to know if you're on Manhattan Island.

wanderer2575

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Re: Turn on red varying by state: a guide for those outside this forum
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2021, 09:30:24 AM »

In Michigan, you may turn left on red onto a one-way road from either a one-way or two-way road, unless signed otherwise.  On a boulevard left turn where you are making a U-turn onto the carriageway in the opposite direction (such as for a Michigan Left) the left turn on red is allowed unless signed otherwise, but proceeding on red across the carriageway to access another road or driveway is not allowed.

I don't see that Michigan law addresses the issue of multiple turn lanes, so it appears that right turns on red from other than the rightmost lane and left turns on red onto a one-way road from other than the leftmost lane are allowed, unless signed otherwise.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 09:36:48 AM by wanderer2575 »
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michravera

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Re: Turn on red varying by state: a guide for those outside this forum
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2021, 01:45:17 PM »

Nevada:  It's covered by NRS484B.307:

Quote
NRS 484B.307  Traffic controlled by official traffic-control devices exhibiting different colored lights: Rights and duties of vehicular traffic and pedestrians depending upon particular signal displayed; exceptions for person driving motorcycle, moped or trimobile or riding bicycle, electric bicycle or electric scooter; signals placed over individual lanes; certain restrictions upon local authorities; additional penalty for violation committed in pedestrian safety zone.
...
8.  Where the signal is a steady red signal alone:
(a) Vehicular traffic facing the signal must stop before entering the crosswalk on the nearest side of the intersection where the sign or pavement marking indicates where the stop must be made, or in the absence of any such crosswalk, sign or marking, then before entering the intersection, and, except as otherwise provided in paragraphs (c) and (d), must remain stopped or standing until the green signal is shown.
...
(c) After complying with the requirement to stop, vehicular traffic facing such a signal and situated on the extreme right of the highway may proceed into the intersection for a right turn only when the intersecting highway is two-directional or one-way to the right, or vehicular traffic facing such a signal and situated on the extreme left of a one-way highway may proceed into the intersection for a left turn only when the intersecting highway is one-way to the left, but must yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and other traffic proceeding as directed by the signal at the intersection.

Bold and italics added; I would interpret "the extreme right of the highway" to mean the right-most lane only.

Special circumstances are covered by signage and signals.  Here's one I can think of in Sparks where a right turn is prohibited by signage and separate signal even with the green allowing traffic to proceed straight through the intersection, in this case because there's a through bike path on the right which is separated from the vehicular traffic lane by an island.

California, by contrast, allows right from anywhere safe to anywhere safe and the same with left. So, an option for "one lane only" would be a useful distinction.
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MASTERNC

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Re: Turn on red varying by state: a guide for those outside this forum
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2021, 09:29:17 AM »

I believe PA allows right on red arrows unless prohibited by sign.  I have seen one or two signs banning right on red except from curb lane (mostly in Philly) but right on red is generally prohibited by sign when there are multiple right turn lanes.  Left turns between one-way streets are also permitted.
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Dirt Roads

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Re: Turn on red varying by state: a guide for those outside this forum
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2021, 10:22:03 AM »

This one fall under misuse of RTOR:  A couple of days ago, I saw a car get out of the right lane of the interior of a local DDI and pass three cars in the berm (ergo, the median).  They were trying to run the red light to exit the DDI and fortunately never got a chance before the light turned green.  They entered a gas station just past the DDI.  The only thing I could figure was that they thought that everyone could move forward using the right-turn-on-red rule, even though the DDI is very clearly a cross-street movement.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Turn on red varying by state: a guide for those outside this forum
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2021, 10:39:08 AM »

This one fall under misuse of RTOR:  A couple of days ago, I saw a car get out of the right lane of the interior of a local DDI and pass three cars in the berm (ergo, the median).  They were trying to run the red light to exit the DDI and fortunately never got a chance before the light turned green.  They entered a gas station just past the DDI.  The only thing I could figure was that they thought that everyone could move forward using the right-turn-on-red rule, even though the DDI is very clearly a cross-street movement.

Or they had an emergency and wanted to get to the gas station. That would at least justify trying to get past traffic in the median.
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jakeroot

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Re: Turn on red varying by state: a guide for those outside this forum
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2021, 12:21:46 PM »

WA, OR, and BC are super easy: turns on red are totally OK, no matter how many turn lanes, use of arrow, etc. The only prohibition is left onto a two-way street. Everything else is OK.

If we could start to culminate our findings, I could put together an Excel spreadsheet and then theoretically map out the rules using a GIS program.
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mrsman

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Re: Turn on red varying by state: a guide for those outside this forum
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2021, 09:16:11 AM »

WA, OR, and BC are super easy: turns on red are totally OK, no matter how many turn lanes, use of arrow, etc. The only prohibition is left onto a two-way street. Everything else is OK.

If we could start to culminate our findings, I could put together an Excel spreadsheet and then theoretically map out the rules using a GIS program.

That would be great.  A useful guide and visual.  Sort of like this map on wikipedia for left turns on red:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_on_red#/media/File:Legality_of_left_turn_on_red_in_USA.svg

[Of course, IMO, it would be far easier to have one rule for the whole country with exceptions signed at specific intersections.  Part of the difficulty is that in many states they don't clearly define in their laws what to do about a red right arrow.  So glad that people on this thread are doing the research to try to put it all together.]
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Turn on red varying by state: a guide for those outside this forum
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2021, 10:08:53 AM »

WA, OR, and BC are super easy: turns on red are totally OK, no matter how many turn lanes, use of arrow, etc. The only prohibition is left onto a two-way street. Everything else is OK.

If we could start to culminate our findings, I could put together an Excel spreadsheet and then theoretically map out the rules using a GIS program.

That would be great.  A useful guide and visual.  Sort of like this map on wikipedia for left turns on red:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_on_red#/media/File:Legality_of_left_turn_on_red_in_USA.svg

[Of course, IMO, it would be far easier to have one rule for the whole country with exceptions signed at specific intersections.  Part of the difficulty is that in many states they don't clearly define in their laws what to do about a red right arrow.  So glad that people on this thread are doing the research to try to put it all together.]


This is true of many state laws! And then penalties for ignoring those laws.

As for clearly defining red arrows, sometimes people are looking for more than what's needed. If the law says that you must stop at a red light, but then may turn right on red, that is the rule. If they don't carve out an exception for a red arrow, then it just goes back to the basic law regarding the red light.
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fwydriver405

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Re: Turn on red varying by state: a guide for those outside this forum
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2021, 03:17:08 PM »

There are the laws about turning on red in the 6 New England States:

Connecticut (not sure about - state law states no exception for red arrow) does allows right turn on red arrow (Sec 14-299-3), but does not allow left turn on circular red or red arrow at all.
Maine does not allow right turns on red arrow at all (Title 29-A, §2057, 1C-1), and does not allow left turn on circular red or red arrow at all.
Massachusetts does allows right turn on red arrow (MGL Part I, Title XIV, Chapter 89, Section 8), and allows left on circular red or red arrow if both the originating and destination roads are one way.
New Hampshire does allows right turn on red arrow (NH RSA 265:10, 3-f), but does not allow left turn on circular red or red arrow at all.
Rhode Island does not allows right turns on red arrow at all (R.I. Gen. Laws § 31-13-6, 3-A-2), and does not allow left turn on circular red or red arrow at all.
Vermont does not allow right turns on red arrow unless signed with a R10-17a sign (23 V.S.A 1022 3-B), but allows left on circular red ONLY if both the originating and destination roads are one way.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2021, 03:30:23 PM by fwydriver405 »
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Dirt Roads

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Re: Turn on red varying by state: a guide for those outside this forum
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2021, 11:38:36 PM »

Not sure when this change was made, but the US-15/501 interchange with NC-54 (Raleigh Road) in Chapel Hill now sports a double right turn lane on the cloverleaf from NC-54 westbound onto Fordham Boulevard (US-15/501 southbound, which then mulitplexes with NC-54 westbound).  It has been a while since I used that interchange.  Yesterday, I pulled into the left turn lane to pass a Chapel Hill Transit bus and was confronted with an RTOR situation.  That was the first time I've ever made an RTOR onto the fast lane of an expressway (you can debate whether that section of Fordham is no longer an expressway).  The posted speed limit is only 45MPH, but everybody was pushing 60MPH in both lanes.  Might be an interesting topic for a new thread.
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