Interstate 11

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm not against an eventual I-11 extension south to the border but why the hell is this being studied at all when the most important segment which is Phoenix to Vegas doesn't even have a single project under construction right now?

I also think that the route is a horrible choice. They should follow US-60 as much as possible into central Phoenix until ROW and design starts getting really high. Eventually take it all the way to I-17 but for now settle at the loop 101. Focus on building I-11 from the loop 101 to I-40 and into Nevada. That's the most important part IMO.

[kernals12]

I'm not against an eventual I-11 extension south to the border but why the hell is this being studied at all when the most important segment which is Phoenix to Vegas doesn't even have a single project under construction right now?

I also think that the route is a horrible choice. They should follow US-60 as much as possible into central Phoenix until ROW and design starts getting really high. Eventually take it all the way to I-17 but for now settle at the loop 101. Focus on building I-11 from the loop 101 to I-40 and into Nevada. That's the most important part IMO.

Buckeye has just 90,000 people right now, but it's zoned for 1.5 million. Those people need a freeway.

Also, I'm having trouble visualizing your proposed route, could you sketch it for me?

[DJStephens]

I'm not against an eventual I-11 extension south to the border but why the hell is this being studied at all when the most important segment which is Phoenix to Vegas doesn't even have a single project under construction right now?

I also think that the route is a horrible choice. They should follow US-60 as much as possible into central Phoenix until ROW and design starts getting really high. Eventually take it all the way to I-17 but for now settle at the loop 101. Focus on building I-11 from the loop 101 to I-40 and into Nevada. That's the most important part IMO.

Exactly.  The purpose of a limited access US 93 (and maybe someday I-11) should be to provide, as direct a route as possible, to connect Phoenix, and Las Vegas.   Not to satisfy a fat cat developer.   By winding all over the place, on the far west side of the Phoenix metro.  Loop 303 is already there, anyways.   

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm not against an eventual I-11 extension south to the border but why the hell is this being studied at all when the most important segment which is Phoenix to Vegas doesn't even have a single project under construction right now?

I also think that the route is a horrible choice. They should follow US-60 as much as possible into central Phoenix until ROW and design starts getting really high. Eventually take it all the way to I-17 but for now settle at the loop 101. Focus on building I-11 from the loop 101 to I-40 and into Nevada. That's the most important part IMO.

Buckeye has just 90,000 people right now, but it's zoned for 1.5 million. Those people need a freeway.

Also, I'm having trouble visualizing your proposed route, could you sketch it for me?

Buckeye can still get a freeway either x-11 or local number.

So my route follows US-60 from Wickenburg going over Loop 303 and temporarily terminating at Loop 101. Here is a graphic I threw together isn't great but shows the concept.



You can see ADOTs route to left and my route which is red and blue. The blue portion is built much later after the red portion is constructed to Wickenburg and eventually extended to connect to Nevada's I-11. The blue portion is one of the last segments and then the part following existing freeways is either signed as I-11, cosigned with I-17, or I-11 terminates at I-17 for the foreseeable future. I really couldn't care less what happens with this road after it hits I-17.

Correct me I am wrong, but the purpose of I-11 is to connect Phoenix to Las Vegas, no? At least that is what is talked about how Phoenix and Vegas are the two largest cities not directly connected with an interstate.

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm not against an eventual I-11 extension south to the border but why the hell is this being studied at all when the most important segment which is Phoenix to Vegas doesn't even have a single project under construction right now?

I also think that the route is a horrible choice. They should follow US-60 as much as possible into central Phoenix until ROW and design starts getting really high. Eventually take it all the way to I-17 but for now settle at the loop 101. Focus on building I-11 from the loop 101 to I-40 and into Nevada. That's the most important part IMO.

Exactly.  The purpose of a limited access US 93 (and maybe someday I-11) should be to provide, as direct a route as possible, to connect Phoenix, and Las Vegas.   Not to satisfy a fat cat developer.   By winding all over the place, on the far west side of the Phoenix metro.  Loop 303 is already there, anyways.   

Yeah I really don't see the appeal of driving far out west along I-10 to travel north on US-93 to get to Las Vegas. The portion from Route 101 to 303 seems relatively easy to upgrade. The portion from Loop 303 to Wickenburg seems like a slam dunk.

[KeithE4Phx]

I'm not against an eventual I-11 extension south to the border but why the hell is this being studied at all when the most important segment which is Phoenix to Vegas doesn't even have a single project under construction right now?

Construction on the new US 93/I-11 ramps to/from I-40 in Kingman that will eliminate the Beale Street Backup is supposed to start next year.  Most of 93 south of I-40 is four lanes now, with a few short segments including new ramps at I-40, a final decision on Wickieup, and the dangerous Joshua Tree Highway segment NW of Wickenburg (25 miles) yet to begin.  The latter should be a top priority due to the numerous accidents in that area.

No exit ramps at AZ 89, 71, and 97 have been constructed or even planned, since I believe they're going to upgrade the segment of 93 between Kingman and the state line first.

[kernals12]

I'm not against an eventual I-11 extension south to the border but why the hell is this being studied at all when the most important segment which is Phoenix to Vegas doesn't even have a single project under construction right now?

I also think that the route is a horrible choice. They should follow US-60 as much as possible into central Phoenix until ROW and design starts getting really high. Eventually take it all the way to I-17 but for now settle at the loop 101. Focus on building I-11 from the loop 101 to I-40 and into Nevada. That's the most important part IMO.

Buckeye has just 90,000 people right now, but it's zoned for 1.5 million. Those people need a freeway.

Also, I'm having trouble visualizing your proposed route, could you sketch it for me?

Buckeye can still get a freeway either x-11 or local number.

So my route follows US-60 from Wickenburg going over Loop 303 and temporarily terminating at Loop 101. Here is a graphic I threw together isn't great but shows the concept.



You can see ADOTs route to left and my route which is red and blue. The blue portion is built much later after the red portion is constructed to Wickenburg and eventually extended to connect to Nevada's I-11. The blue portion is one of the last segments and then the part following existing freeways is either signed as I-11, cosigned with I-17, or I-11 terminates at I-17 for the foreseeable future. I really couldn't care less what happens with this road after it hits I-17.

Correct me I am wrong, but the purpose of I-11 is to connect Phoenix to Las Vegas, no? At least that is what is talked about how Phoenix and Vegas are the two largest cities not directly connected with an interstate.

Your proposed route would require the demolition of thousands of homes and businesses and look at how little space there is on I-17 between your I-11 interchange and the I-10 interchange.

Whereas ADOT's I-11 relieves traffic on I-10, yours makes it worse.

[KeithE4Phx]

Correct me I am wrong, but the purpose of I-11 is to connect Phoenix to Las Vegas, no? At least that is what is talked about how Phoenix and Vegas are the two largest cities not directly connected with an interstate.

You're wrong.  The purpose of I-11 is to get trucks from Nogales to Las Vegas, while bypassing Phoenix.  I have no idea why they decided to route it so far west, but they did, and that's that.  A major upgrade to US 60 between the Loop 303 and Wickenburg is in order, including a bypass around that city, but it will never be upgraded to a full freeway into Phoenix.  That proposal was dropped years ago.

I still think it will never see the light of day south of I-8.  I-10 and I-19 already cover the Nogales-to-Casa Grande leg, and I-8 can take over from there.  Besides, Pima County is so violently anti-freeway, that they will never approve it.

[Plutonic Panda]

Correct me I am wrong, but the purpose of I-11 is to connect Phoenix to Las Vegas, no? At least that is what is talked about how Phoenix and Vegas are the two largest cities not directly connected with an interstate.

You're wrong.  The purpose of I-11 is to get trucks from Nogales to Las Vegas, while bypassing Phoenix.  I have no idea why they decided to route it so far west, but they did, and that's that.  A major upgrade to US 60 between the Loop 303 and Wickenburg is in order, including a bypass around that city, but it will never be upgraded to a full freeway into Phoenix.  That proposal was dropped years ago.

I still think it will never see the light of day south of I-8.  I-10 and I-19 already cover the Nogales-to-Casa Grande leg, and I-8 can take over from there.  Besides, Pima County is so violently anti-freeway, that they will never approve it.

So by your own admission you say the real plan won't ever be realized but yet we should still build it as intended? I am certain I've seen it mentioned several times how Phoenix and Las Vegas will be connected when mentioning this. So I assume then we'll see more truck traffic using it than Phoenicians traveling to and from Las Vegas?

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm not against an eventual I-11 extension south to the border but why the hell is this being studied at all when the most important segment which is Phoenix to Vegas doesn't even have a single project under construction right now?

I also think that the route is a horrible choice. They should follow US-60 as much as possible into central Phoenix until ROW and design starts getting really high. Eventually take it all the way to I-17 but for now settle at the loop 101. Focus on building I-11 from the loop 101 to I-40 and into Nevada. That's the most important part IMO.

Buckeye has just 90,000 people right now, but it's zoned for 1.5 million. Those people need a freeway.

Also, I'm having trouble visualizing your proposed route, could you sketch it for me?

Buckeye can still get a freeway either x-11 or local number.

So my route follows US-60 from Wickenburg going over Loop 303 and temporarily terminating at Loop 101. Here is a graphic I threw together isn't great but shows the concept.



You can see ADOTs route to left and my route which is red and blue. The blue portion is built much later after the red portion is constructed to Wickenburg and eventually extended to connect to Nevada's I-11. The blue portion is one of the last segments and then the part following existing freeways is either signed as I-11, cosigned with I-17, or I-11 terminates at I-17 for the foreseeable future. I really couldn't care less what happens with this road after it hits I-17.

Correct me I am wrong, but the purpose of I-11 is to connect Phoenix to Las Vegas, no? At least that is what is talked about how Phoenix and Vegas are the two largest cities not directly connected with an interstate.

Your proposed route would require the demolition of thousands of homes and businesses and look at how little space there is on I-17 between your I-11 interchange and the I-10 interchange.

Whereas ADOT's I-11 relieves traffic on I-10, yours makes it worse.

How does my proposal make I-10 traffic worse when I propose the Phoenix bypass as an X-11 and giving Phoenix residents a more direct route to Vegas instead of using I-10 to west Phoenix?

[KeithE4Phx]

Correct me I am wrong, but the purpose of I-11 is to connect Phoenix to Las Vegas, no? At least that is what is talked about how Phoenix and Vegas are the two largest cities not directly connected with an interstate.

You're wrong.  The purpose of I-11 is to get trucks from Nogales to Las Vegas, while bypassing Phoenix.  I have no idea why they decided to route it so far west, but they did, and that's that.  A major upgrade to US 60 between the Loop 303 and Wickenburg is in order, including a bypass around that city, but it will never be upgraded to a full freeway into Phoenix.  That proposal was dropped years ago.

I still think it will never see the light of day south of I-8.  I-10 and I-19 already cover the Nogales-to-Casa Grande leg, and I-8 can take over from there.  Besides, Pima County is so violently anti-freeway, that they will never approve it.

So by your own admission you say the real plan won't ever be realized but yet we should still build it as intended? I am certain I've seen it mentioned several times how Phoenix and Las Vegas will be connected when mentioning this.

Where did I say that?  It will be built between I-8 (or I-10) and Vegas.  Eventually.  Construction will be from north to south, so the segment between the state line and I-40 will be completed first.

So I assume then we'll see more truck traffic using it than Phoenicians traveling to and from Las Vegas?

Have you ever driven between Phoenix and Las Vegas?  I do, average twice a year.  Given the size of the metro, there isn't that much car traffic between the two cities.  Most people from here fly.  It's the truck traffic that is the problem.  Whether or not I-11 comes to be south of I-40, it is imperative that the segment between I-40 and Wickenburg be 4-laned, and as soon as humanly possible.  They don't have much more to do, but those last 30 miles or so don't have any funding yet, AFAIK.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^^ we've had two different experiences then. While I don't drive it as nearly often as you do I've driven it about 4 times and it was pretty heavy car traffic each time. Lots of trucks too.

Now I do semi-regularly take the stretch of US-93 from Kingman to I-11 in Nevada and it's always much more car traffic than trucks and almost all of the tags are Arizona. I'd imagine there are more people from Phoenix than Kingman.

[KeithE4Phx]

^^^^ we've had two different experiences then. While I don't drive it as nearly often as you do I've driven it about 4 times and it was pretty heavy car traffic each time. Lots of trucks too.

Now I do semi-regularly take the stretch of US-93 from Kingman to I-11 in Nevada and it's always much more car traffic than trucks and almost all of the tags are Arizona. I'd imagine there are more people from Phoenix than Kingman.

On the weekends, you're probably right.  I generally do that trip in the middle of the week (rooms on the Strip are much cheaper then.  ).  Almost always, I see heavy truck traffic.  I'm not saying that there's no or even little car traffic, but trucks are preeminent on those days, with more of it going north than south, and most of the trucks that are going south getting off on I-40.

[vdeane]

Yeesh.  Everything south of I-10 is just a developer pork project rather than one designed to further the transportation needs of regional travelers.  Why not just send it down AZ 85 to I-8 and terminate there?  That would fill in a genuine gap in the interstate system and not put in pointless extra mileage.  And why does it need to overlap or replace I-19?  If I-19 were to be replaced by something, I'd rather it be I-17 so that I-17's numbers would at least (appear to - they'd still be off by ~20 miles) make sense.  Is this some back-door way to force I-19 away from metric?

The purpose of I-11 is to get trucks from Nogales to Las Vegas, while bypassing Phoenix.

That's not what we were told back when I-11 proponents were trying to get traction to get the project started.

[kernals12]

Yeesh.  Everything south of I-10 is just a developer pork project rather than one designed to further the transportation needs of regional travelers.  Why not just send it down AZ 85 to I-8 and terminate there?  That would fill in a genuine gap in the interstate system and not put in pointless extra mileage.  And why does it need to overlap or replace I-19?  If I-19 were to be replaced by something, I'd rather it be I-17 so that I-17's numbers would at least (appear to - they'd still be off by ~20 miles) make sense.  Is this some back-door way to force I-19 away from metric?

The purpose of I-11 is to get trucks from Nogales to Las Vegas, while bypassing Phoenix.

That's not what we were told back when I-11 proponents were trying to get traction to get the project started.

I don't think you realize just how much Arizona is projected to grow in the future. If that growth happens in existing cities, it will mean more congestion and less livability. Sprawl means that existing communities aren't faced with the burdens of more people.

[Max Rockatansky]

Yeesh.  Everything south of I-10 is just a developer pork project rather than one designed to further the transportation needs of regional travelers.  Why not just send it down AZ 85 to I-8 and terminate there?  That would fill in a genuine gap in the interstate system and not put in pointless extra mileage.  And why does it need to overlap or replace I-19?  If I-19 were to be replaced by something, I'd rather it be I-17 so that I-17's numbers would at least (appear to - they'd still be off by ~20 miles) make sense.  Is this some back-door way to force I-19 away from metric?

The purpose of I-11 is to get trucks from Nogales to Las Vegas, while bypassing Phoenix.

That's not what we were told back when I-11 proponents were trying to get traction to get the project started.

I don't think you realize just how much Arizona is projected to grow in the future. If that growth happens in existing cities, it will mean more congestion and less livability. Sprawl means that existing communities aren't faced with the burdens of more people.

But west of the White Tank Mountains?  Who is going to live all the way the hell out there when there is no direct access over that range over than slogging all the way down to I-10?  The most practical path I-11 could have took was down US 60 and AZ 303 to reach I-10.  At least if I-11 went down to I-8 via AZ 85 it would serve as a long haul bypass of Phoenix from the Tucson and border areas around Nogales. 

[kernals12]

Yeesh.  Everything south of I-10 is just a developer pork project rather than one designed to further the transportation needs of regional travelers.  Why not just send it down AZ 85 to I-8 and terminate there?  That would fill in a genuine gap in the interstate system and not put in pointless extra mileage.  And why does it need to overlap or replace I-19?  If I-19 were to be replaced by something, I'd rather it be I-17 so that I-17's numbers would at least (appear to - they'd still be off by ~20 miles) make sense.  Is this some back-door way to force I-19 away from metric?

The purpose of I-11 is to get trucks from Nogales to Las Vegas, while bypassing Phoenix.

That's not what we were told back when I-11 proponents were trying to get traction to get the project started.

I don't think you realize just how much Arizona is projected to grow in the future. If that growth happens in existing cities, it will mean more congestion and less livability. Sprawl means that existing communities aren't faced with the burdens of more people.

But west of the White Tank Mountains?  Who is going to live all the way the hell out there when there is no direct access over that range over than slogging all the way down to I-10?  The most practical path I-11 could have took was down US 60 and AZ 303 to reach I-10.  At least if I-11 went down to I-8 via AZ 85 it would serve as a long haul bypass of Phoenix from the Tucson and border areas around Nogales.

As a matter of fact, they're planning two freeways in that area

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^^ where is that plan? I'd like to see it. So far I've seen only spotty updates along US-60 here and there with no real overall plan. The entire thing needs to be a freeway all the way to downtown.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yeesh.  Everything south of I-10 is just a developer pork project rather than one designed to further the transportation needs of regional travelers.  Why not just send it down AZ 85 to I-8 and terminate there?  That would fill in a genuine gap in the interstate system and not put in pointless extra mileage.  And why does it need to overlap or replace I-19?  If I-19 were to be replaced by something, I'd rather it be I-17 so that I-17's numbers would at least (appear to - they'd still be off by ~20 miles) make sense.  Is this some back-door way to force I-19 away from metric?

The purpose of I-11 is to get trucks from Nogales to Las Vegas, while bypassing Phoenix.

That's not what we were told back when I-11 proponents were trying to get traction to get the project started.

That's very interesting. I-17 extended south would make more sense especially if(and that's a big if I can't stress that enough) it's ever extended north to I-70.

[kernals12]

^^^^ where is that plan? I'd like to see it. So far I've seen only spotty updates along US-60 here and there with no real overall plan. The entire thing needs to be a freeway all the way to downtown.

This plan is from 2007, right before the housing meltdown caused Phoenix's growth to grind to a halt.

https://media.lasvegassun.com/media/pdfs/2009/07/10/hassayampa071009.pdf

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^^ where is that plan? I'd like to see it. So far I've seen only spotty updates along US-60 here and there with no real overall plan. The entire thing needs to be a freeway all the way to downtown.

This plan is from 2007, right before the housing meltdown caused Phoenix's growth to grind to a halt.

https://media.lasvegassun.com/media/pdfs/2009/07/10/hassayampa071009.pdf

Any update since? Hopefully that is still in ADOTs book.

[roadman65]

I know since September of this year, the east alternative through Vegas is been eliminated leaving either I-215/CC 215  or I-515 for the Future I-11 in Las Vegas. 


Which one is going to be most likely out of the other two left?

[Plutonic Panda]

I know since September of this year, the east alternative through Vegas is been eliminated leaving either I-215/CC 215  or I-515 for the Future I-11 in Las Vegas. 


Which one is going to be most likely out of the other two left?

If I had to guess it'd be I-515 and they're about to expand and rebuild it below grade.

[kernals12]

^^^^ where is that plan? I'd like to see it. So far I've seen only spotty updates along US-60 here and there with no real overall plan. The entire thing needs to be a freeway all the way to downtown.

This plan is from 2007, right before the housing meltdown caused Phoenix's growth to grind to a halt.

https://media.lasvegassun.com/media/pdfs/2009/07/10/hassayampa071009.pdf

Any update since? Hopefully that is still in ADOTs book.

No updates, but there's no way that can't include that. You'd wind up with massive congestion on arterials.

^^^^ where is that plan? I'd like to see it. So far I've seen only spotty updates along US-60 here and there with no real overall plan. The entire thing needs to be a freeway all the way to downtown.

No it does not. The cost of ROW acquisition and utility relocations would make it very expensive and given the bottlenecks it would create on the Papago and Black Canyon Freeways, whether it would improve traffic is questionable.

[KeithE4Phx]

Yeesh.  Everything south of I-10 is just a developer pork project rather than one designed to further the transportation needs of regional travelers.  Why not just send it down AZ 85 to I-8 and terminate there?  That would fill in a genuine gap in the interstate system and not put in pointless extra mileage.  And why does it need to overlap or replace I-19?  If I-19 were to be replaced by something, I'd rather it be I-17 so that I-17's numbers would at least (appear to - they'd still be off by ~20 miles) make sense.  Is this some back-door way to force I-19 away from metric?

The purpose of I-11 is to get trucks from Nogales to Las Vegas, while bypassing Phoenix.

That's not what we were told back when I-11 proponents were trying to get traction to get the project started.

I don't think you realize just how much Arizona is projected to grow in the future. If that growth happens in existing cities, it will mean more congestion and less livability. Sprawl means that existing communities aren't faced with the burdens of more people.

But west of the White Tank Mountains?  Who is going to live all the way the hell out there when there is no direct access over that range over than slogging all the way down to I-10?  The most practical path I-11 could have took was down US 60 and AZ 303 to reach I-10.  At least if I-11 went down to I-8 via AZ 85 it would serve as a long haul bypass of Phoenix from the Tucson and border areas around Nogales.

As a matter of fact, they're planning two freeways in that area.

That map is close to 15 years old -- ancient and obsolete.  It's so old that it calls the Gateway Fwy AZ 802 (it's AZ 24), and the Tres Rios Fwy AZ 801 (it will be AZ 30),  With the route of I-11 going so far west, I don't know when or if they'll ever build the Loop 404, which was supposed to be taken over by I-11.

The Gateway Fwy is currently being expanded, but only the ramps and the ground-level pavement, similar to the original construction of AZ 51, 40 years ago.  There's no funding yet to upgrade it to a full freeway.

The Tres Rios is being fast-tracked, from what I've heard, because of the extreme overload on I-10 in the West Valley.  It's still many years away from completion.

The Pinal North/South Fwy has just been approved, but it also is not funded.  There is also funding to complete the Loop 303 as a full freeway in Peoria, including full ramps at I-17.  AZ 85 will also be upgraded to a full freeway between I-10 and I-8, but when it happens is anybody's guess.

Those are the only freeways that are guaranteed to get built in the next decade.  I-11 will eventually get done, but it will remain US 93 for the unforeseeable future, even after 4-laning is complete.

You can throw away every other freeway proposal.  Not gonna happen in my lifetime (and I'm 66).