Interstate 11

[kernals12]

A bunch of those planned development projects may end up being wishful thinking. The real estate industry is way way into an over-priced bubble economy. Housing costs are rising way beyond the levels of average income growth. With consumer price inflation set to soar even higher in 2022 on things like food and fuel it's going to kill the financial viability of many of those projects. Add in the additional problems of limited natural resources like water. There is only so much additional growth the Phoenix area is going to be able to support.

If I-11 gets built on the proposed routing way out West of the White Tanks I think it's going to be a freeway out in the middle of nowhere, carrying sparse levels of traffic for many years to come. If that area out West is really supposed to blow up with development then why aren't existing towns not all far from Phoenix, such as Gila Bend or Casa Grade, blowing up with development already?

A bunch of those planned development projects may end up being wishful thinking. The real estate industry is way way into an over-priced bubble economy. Housing costs are rising way beyond the levels of average income growth. With consumer price inflation set to soar even higher in 2022 on things like food and fuel it's going to kill the financial viability of many of those projects. Add in the additional problems of limited natural resources like water. There is only so much additional growth the Phoenix area is going to be able to support.

If I-11 gets built on the proposed routing way out West of the White Tanks I think it's going to be a freeway out in the middle of nowhere, carrying sparse levels of traffic for many years to come. If that area out West is really supposed to blow up with development then why aren't existing towns not all far from Phoenix, such as Gila Bend or Casa Grade, blowing up with development already?

I agree.  Are there really enough jobs in Arizona to support all that housing?  And water?  Contributing to a housing bubble isn't really the purpose of interstate highways...

Phoenix doesn't have a bubble, it has a shortage. Unlike in 2007, the demand is real but supply isn't keeping up. Californians have been set free by telecommuting and they are descending upon the Grand Canyon State.

And yes, Arizona has plenty of jobs and water. People bring jobs with them, as businesses move to where potential workers and customers are. And as I've said several times, Arizona's growth is reducing water consumption. When a cottonfield is turned into a suburban subdivision, water use goes down. That's a big reason why Arizona uses less water now than it did 70 years ago.

Also, Casa Grande is absolutely booming

[kkt]

I think they should complete Interstate 11 to Interstate 8 and then call it a day. Is Interstate 10 between the Interstate 8 junction and Tucson so congested that a parallel route is necessary (which I am not convinced it is)?

Down to I-8 would be just fine.  If Arizona wants to facilitate sprawl, they can build state routes.

[KeithE4Phx]

If Arizona wants to facilitate sprawl, they can build state routes.

ADOT is notorious for not building new state routes, especially in the metro Phoenix area.  All there are in Maricopa County are US 60 from I-17 to I-10 via Grand Ave. and Wickenburg, AZ 74 from Morristown to I-17, AZ 87 (Beeline Hwy north of Mesa), most of the now-mostly-closed AZ 88 (Apache Trail), and slivers of US 93, AZ 71, and AZ 347. 

AZ 85 between I-10 and I-8 technically still counts, but it will be upgraded to a freeway eventually.  US 60X (Apache Trail/Main St) through the Mesa county islands exists, but is unsigned.

[Bobby5280]

Phoenix doesn't have a bubble, it has a shortage. Unlike in 2007, the demand is real but supply isn't keeping up.

There is a housing shortage nation-wide, housing in price levels that match average incomes. All over the US residential developments are popping up as if everyone pulls in a solid six-figure income. I see the disconnect even here in Lawton, OK -which is not what anyone would consider to be a booming real estate market. The federal government and banks have steadily relaxed borrowing standards to let home buyers get in way over their heads just like in the mid 2000's.

The thing currently propping up this new bubble is whole lot of international money. Buyers grabbing up properties to hold like trading cards and not actually live in them. A shit ton of high priced residential property in Manhattan is literally not being lived in, some of it not even furnished.

Another problem with the Phoenix angle and I-11 being routed way the hell out in the sticks is the old rule with real estate: location, location, location. None of those proposed developments way out West of the White Tanks is going to be viable unless I-11 and a whole lot of other infrastructure gets built to support it. Everything from good and affordable water supply to high speed Internet. Right now it's just open desert. Even if they manage to build a bunch of nice homes way out there, it's still a significant drive to Phoenix. Gasoline prices hitting record highs was one of the key things that destroyed the housing bubble in the mid 2000's. Speculative home buyers had already stretched themselves financially to the snapping point buying McMansions out in the exhurbs. Their driving costs helped make their financial situations untenable.

And as I've said several times, Arizona's growth is reducing water consumption. When a cottonfield is turned into a suburban subdivision, water use goes down. That's a big reason why Arizona uses less water now than it did 70 years ago.

Lake Mead and other reservoirs in that region are still hitting record low levels.

[US 89]

And as I've said several times, Arizona's growth is reducing water consumption. When a cottonfield is turned into a suburban subdivision, water use goes down. That's a big reason why Arizona uses less water now than it did 70 years ago.

Lake Mead and other reservoirs in that region are still hitting record low levels.

Yeah, but that's not driven by urban water use in Arizona... that's the result of drought and reduced runoff probably caused mostly by climate change.

[Plutonic Panda]

With the high snowfall that's fallen in the west so far we should lower release levels and let the lakes fill back up.

[kdk]

A bunch of those planned development projects may end up being wishful thinking. The real estate industry is way way into an over-priced bubble economy. Housing costs are rising way beyond the levels of average income growth. With consumer price inflation set to soar even higher in 2022 on things like food and fuel it's going to kill the financial viability of many of those projects. Add in the additional problems of limited natural resources like water. There is only so much additional growth the Phoenix area is going to be able to support.

If I-11 gets built on the proposed routing way out West of the White Tanks I think it's going to be a freeway out in the middle of nowhere, carrying sparse levels of traffic for many years to come. If that area out West is really supposed to blow up with development then why aren't existing towns not all far from Phoenix, such as Gila Bend or Casa Grade, blowing up with development already?

A bunch of those planned development projects may end up being wishful thinking. The real estate industry is way way into an over-priced bubble economy. Housing costs are rising way beyond the levels of average income growth. With consumer price inflation set to soar even higher in 2022 on things like food and fuel it's going to kill the financial viability of many of those projects. Add in the additional problems of limited natural resources like water. There is only so much additional growth the Phoenix area is going to be able to support.

If I-11 gets built on the proposed routing way out West of the White Tanks I think it's going to be a freeway out in the middle of nowhere, carrying sparse levels of traffic for many years to come. If that area out West is really supposed to blow up with development then why aren't existing towns not all far from Phoenix, such as Gila Bend or Casa Grade, blowing up with development already?

I agree.  Are there really enough jobs in Arizona to support all that housing?  And water?  Contributing to a housing bubble isn't really the purpose of interstate highways...

Phoenix doesn't have a bubble, it has a shortage. Unlike in 2007, the demand is real but supply isn't keeping up. Californians have been set free by telecommuting and they are descending upon the Grand Canyon State.

And yes, Arizona has plenty of jobs and water. People bring jobs with them, as businesses move to where potential workers and customers are. And as I've said several times, Arizona's growth is reducing water consumption. When a cottonfield is turned into a suburban subdivision, water use goes down. That's a big reason why Arizona uses less water now than it did 70 years ago.

Also, Casa Grande is absolutely booming

100% agree.  The 2007 crash was brought on because people were buying multiple homes as "investments" in AZ that they thought they could just rent out.  The outer areas of town were thousands of new homes that no one lived in.
Now it's different, people just need places to live and there's a shortage which has pushed up prices to be unsustainable. 
A lot of these new home developments will include "single family apartments" basically new homes built as rentals.

Agree too that Casa Grande is booming, like Maricopa being they are reasonable commutes to jobs in Chandler and Tempe.  Gila Bend has yet to be touched by the growth, the Sun Valley Parkway corridor is much closer to metro Phoenix than Gila Bend.

[JayhawkCO]

Does Denver have urban growth boundaries? There is a lot of land to build large sprawling subdivisions on. Why are homes prices so high?

Well, we have mountains to the west, so that's our urban growth boundary.  Home prices are so high by and large due to a) lots of Californians moving here and paying cash for houses and b) no one really wants to leave once they get here.  Two years ago, at the end of the year, there were about 5,000 houses on the market.  At the end of 2021, there were less than 1,500.  No one is selling which makes the price wars crazy.  There is still a good amount of new home building going on (especially on the north and east sides of the metro), but generally all of those houses are north of $500k too.

[Plutonic Panda]

Does Denver have urban growth boundaries? There is a lot of land to build large sprawling subdivisions on. Why are homes prices so high?

Well, we have mountains to the west, so that's our urban growth boundary.  Home prices are so high by and large due to a) lots of Californians moving here and paying cash for houses and b) no one really wants to leave once they get here.  Two years ago, at the end of the year, there were about 5,000 houses on the market.  At the end of 2021, there were less than 1,500.  No one is selling which makes the price wars crazy.  There is still a good amount of new home building going on (especially on the north and east sides of the metro), but generally all of those houses are north of $500k too.

Empty land to the east as far as the eye can see though.

[kkt]

And as I've said several times, Arizona's growth is reducing water consumption. When a cottonfield is turned into a suburban subdivision, water use goes down. That's a big reason why Arizona uses less water now than it did 70 years ago.

Lake Mead and other reservoirs in that region are still hitting record low levels.

Yeah, but that's not driven by urban water use in Arizona... that's the result of drought and reduced runoff probably caused mostly by climate change.

If Arizona turns its cropland into subdivisions, where is the fresh produce going to come from?  For that matter, a lot of Arizona produce goes to other parts of the country for winter crops.

[Plutonic Panda]

And as I've said several times, Arizona's growth is reducing water consumption. When a cottonfield is turned into a suburban subdivision, water use goes down. That's a big reason why Arizona uses less water now than it did 70 years ago.

Lake Mead and other reservoirs in that region are still hitting record low levels.

Yeah, but that's not driven by urban water use in Arizona... that's the result of drought and reduced runoff probably caused mostly by climate change.

If Arizona turns its cropland into subdivisions, where is the fresh produce going to come from?  For that matter, a lot of Arizona produce goes to other parts of the country for winter crops.

I'm sure there's lot of land in Arizona that could be converted to farmland. Eventually we really need to pioneer vertical farming but that'll come with time.

[DenverBrian]

Does Denver have urban growth boundaries? There is a lot of land to build large sprawling subdivisions on. Why are homes prices so high?

Well, we have mountains to the west, so that's our urban growth boundary.  Home prices are so high by and large due to a) lots of Californians moving here and paying cash for houses and b) no one really wants to leave once they get here.  Two years ago, at the end of the year, there were about 5,000 houses on the market.  At the end of 2021, there were less than 1,500.  No one is selling which makes the price wars crazy.  There is still a good amount of new home building going on (especially on the north and east sides of the metro), but generally all of those houses are north of $500k too.

Empty land to the east as far as the eye can see though.

If you want to live in Limon and have a 90-minute commute, you can get a lovely home for $200K, most likely. <shrugs>
Empty land requires water/sewer. And roads. And power. And some semblance of commercial like nearby grocery stores and whatnot. Or else it remains empty.

[Plutonic Panda]

Does Denver have urban growth boundaries? There is a lot of land to build large sprawling subdivisions on. Why are homes prices so high?

Well, we have mountains to the west, so that's our urban growth boundary.  Home prices are so high by and large due to a) lots of Californians moving here and paying cash for houses and b) no one really wants to leave once they get here.  Two years ago, at the end of the year, there were about 5,000 houses on the market.  At the end of 2021, there were less than 1,500.  No one is selling which makes the price wars crazy.  There is still a good amount of new home building going on (especially on the north and east sides of the metro), but generally all of those houses are north of $500k too.

Empty land to the east as far as the eye can see though.

If you want to live in Limon and have a 90-minute commute, you can get a lovely home for $200K, most likely. <shrugs>
Empty land requires water/sewer. And roads. And power. And some semblance of commercial like nearby grocery stores and whatnot. Or else it remains empty.

There's a LOT of land closer than Limon. I have to say the homes backed up against I-70 in Limon look miserable to live in if they're not sound proof. I'd still take that if that was my only alternative however it's not that bad.

[US 89]

There's a LOT of land closer than Limon.

Sure, but you can't just plop homes down in any vacant land. As DenverBrian mentioned, you need infrastructure to support that kind of development. That doesn't exist out there outside a few small towns.

In the areas where you do have that infrastructure, there's been development. I remember being surprised to see these suburban-style homes in Deer Trail when I drove 70 through there last summer. Almost certainly these are intended for people who commute to the Denver metro - and they are why these places are in fact rapidly growing. Deer Trail nearly doubled in population between 2010 and 2020.

[kernals12]

I think they should complete Interstate 11 to Interstate 8 and then call it a day. Is Interstate 10 between the Interstate 8 junction and Tucson so congested that a parallel route is necessary (which I am not convinced it is)?

Down to I-8 would be just fine.  If Arizona wants to facilitate sprawl, they can build state routes.

I can come up with a long list of sprawl inducing interstates all over the country.

[kernals12]

And as I've said several times, Arizona's growth is reducing water consumption. When a cottonfield is turned into a suburban subdivision, water use goes down. That's a big reason why Arizona uses less water now than it did 70 years ago.

Lake Mead and other reservoirs in that region are still hitting record low levels.

Yeah, but that's not driven by urban water use in Arizona... that's the result of drought and reduced runoff probably caused mostly by climate change.

If Arizona turns its cropland into subdivisions, where is the fresh produce going to come from?  For that matter, a lot of Arizona produce goes to other parts of the country for winter crops.

Florida?

[Plutonic Panda]

There's a LOT of land closer than Limon.

Sure, but you can't just plop homes down in any vacant land. As DenverBrian mentioned, you need infrastructure to support that kind of development. That doesn't exist out there outside a few small towns.

In the areas where you do have that infrastructure, there's been development. I remember being surprised to see these suburban-style homes in Deer Trail when I drove 70 through there last summer. Almost certainly these are intended for people who commute to the Denver metro - and they are why these places are in fact rapidly growing. Deer Trail nearly doubled in population between 2010 and 2020.

So build the infrastructure. This is obvious why does it even need said? I don't mean to be rude but if the people are moving there the money exists. Build new freeways and underground rail systems.

[kernals12]

https://azbigmedia.com/business/heres-why-300000-more-people-may-be-moving-to-buckeye/

The first lot sales at Douglas Ranch will begin in the coming months. At full build-out, DR will be home to 300,000 residents on 37,000 acres.

These people will need freeway access.

[KeithE4Phx]

https://azbigmedia.com/business/heres-why-300000-more-people-may-be-moving-to-buckeye/

The first lot sales at Douglas Ranch will begin in the coming months. At full build-out, DR will be home to 300,000 residents on 37,000 acres.

These people will need freeway access.

We've been hearing this song-and-dance about Buckeye for close to 30 years (the time I've lived here), if not longer.  I'll believe it when I see it.

[CoolAngrybirdsrio4]

https://azbigmedia.com/business/heres-why-300000-more-people-may-be-moving-to-buckeye/

The first lot sales at Douglas Ranch will begin in the coming months. At full build-out, DR will be home to 300,000 residents on 37,000 acres.

These people will need freeway access.

Freeway access alongside with some business centers nearby eventually..

[DenverBrian]

There's a LOT of land closer than Limon.

Sure, but you can't just plop homes down in any vacant land. As DenverBrian mentioned, you need infrastructure to support that kind of development. That doesn't exist out there outside a few small towns.

In the areas where you do have that infrastructure, there's been development. I remember being surprised to see these suburban-style homes in Deer Trail when I drove 70 through there last summer. Almost certainly these are intended for people who commute to the Denver metro - and they are why these places are in fact rapidly growing. Deer Trail nearly doubled in population between 2010 and 2020.

So build the infrastructure. This is obvious why does it even need said? I don't mean to be rude but if the people are moving there the money exists. Build new freeways and underground rail systems.

Awww. That's so sweet.

[Plutonic Panda]

There's a LOT of land closer than Limon.

Sure, but you can't just plop homes down in any vacant land. As DenverBrian mentioned, you need infrastructure to support that kind of development. That doesn't exist out there outside a few small towns.

In the areas where you do have that infrastructure, there's been development. I remember being surprised to see these suburban-style homes in Deer Trail when I drove 70 through there last summer. Almost certainly these are intended for people who commute to the Denver metro - and they are why these places are in fact rapidly growing. Deer Trail nearly doubled in population between 2010 and 2020.

So build the infrastructure. This is obvious why does it even need said? I don't mean to be rude but if the people are moving there the money exists. Build new freeways and underground rail systems.

Awww. That's so sweet.

Or just post stupid messages on an online talk forum about why we can't do it. Yeah let's do that!

[ztonyg]

https://azbigmedia.com/business/heres-why-300000-more-people-may-be-moving-to-buckeye/

The first lot sales at Douglas Ranch will begin in the coming months. At full build-out, DR will be home to 300,000 residents on 37,000 acres.

These people will need freeway access.

We've been hearing this song-and-dance about Buckeye for close to 30 years (the time I've lived here), if not longer.  I'll believe it when I see it.

I agree. I'm just not sure that this project will ever come to completion the way it is envisioned.

[tigerwings]

Does Denver have urban growth boundaries? There is a lot of land to build large sprawling subdivisions on. Why are homes prices so high?

Well, we have mountains to the west, so that's our urban growth boundary.  Home prices are so high by and large due to a) lots of Californians moving here and paying cash for houses and b) no one really wants to leave once they get here.  Two years ago, at the end of the year, there were about 5,000 houses on the market.  At the end of 2021, there were less than 1,500.  No one is selling which makes the price wars crazy.  There is still a good amount of new home building going on (especially on the north and east sides of the metro), but generally all of those houses are north of $500k too.

I didn't want to leave CO 5 years ago, but it was transfer or layoff.

[MATraveler128]

Why does I-11 need to go all the way to Nogales anyway? Couldn't it just use AZ 85 and end at I-8? I can understand overlapping I-10 to Tucson and replace I-19, but a parallel freeway makes no sense whatsoever. Just widen I-19 instead.