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Started by mgk920, May 30, 2012, 02:33:31 AM

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DaBigE

Quote from: dvferyance on July 17, 2018, 04:30:41 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on July 16, 2018, 06:52:01 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 16, 2018, 10:56:53 AMThe real problem is Wis Dot waste too much on project nobody wants.

Projects you don't like are not the same as projects nobody wants. Unless you can actually name one...
Replacing signs that are in fine condition is something I am sure most could agree is a waste of money

How many times are you going to beat that poor dead horse?
Did you test all the signs with a retroreflectometer to see if they all still met MUTCD specs? Did you at least request the results of the retroreflectometer readings?
"We gotta find this road, it's like Bob's road!" - Rabbit, Twister


TheHighwayMan3561

Maybe instead of making expressways into freeways that didn't need to be and four-laning roads that don't need to be and pouring more money into dumb Foxconn shit, they could have put more money into the freeway connecting the state's two largest cities.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

jakeroot

Quote from: DaBigE on July 17, 2018, 04:39:12 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 17, 2018, 04:30:41 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on July 16, 2018, 06:52:01 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 16, 2018, 10:56:53 AMThe real problem is Wis Dot waste too much on project nobody wants.

Projects you don't like are not the same as projects nobody wants. Unless you can actually name one...
Replacing signs that are in fine condition is something I am sure most could agree is a waste of money

How many times are you going to beat that poor dead horse?
Did you test all the signs with a retroreflectometer to see if they all still met MUTCD specs? Did you at least request the results of the retroreflectometer readings?

inb4 "signs that existed before modern reflectivity requirements are allowed to stay up until the end of their useful life".

End of useful life could mean "when they are no longer reflective" (i.e. not readable unless hit with direct light). This requires replacement.

Further, it seems to me that many new signs across Wisconsin are the result of changes to intersection or interchange geometry, generally necessitating new signage. From an outsider's perspective, Wisconsin does seem to have made a lot of changes in geometry over the last 15 years.

DaBigE

Quote from: jakeroot on July 18, 2018, 02:52:05 AM
Quote from: DaBigE on July 17, 2018, 04:39:12 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 17, 2018, 04:30:41 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on July 16, 2018, 06:52:01 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 16, 2018, 10:56:53 AMThe real problem is Wis Dot waste too much on project nobody wants.

Projects you don't like are not the same as projects nobody wants. Unless you can actually name one...
Replacing signs that are in fine condition is something I am sure most could agree is a waste of money

How many times are you going to beat that poor dead horse?
Did you test all the signs with a retroreflectometer to see if they all still met MUTCD specs? Did you at least request the results of the retroreflectometer readings?

inb4 "signs that existed before modern reflectivity requirements are allowed to stay up until the end of their useful life".

Based on dvferyance reoccurring complaint, that shouldn't be an issue.
"We gotta find this road, it's like Bob's road!" - Rabbit, Twister

jakeroot

Quote from: DaBigE on July 18, 2018, 09:17:00 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 18, 2018, 02:52:05 AM
Quote from: DaBigE on July 17, 2018, 04:39:12 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 17, 2018, 04:30:41 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on July 16, 2018, 06:52:01 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 16, 2018, 10:56:53 AMThe real problem is Wis Dot waste too much on project nobody wants.

Projects you don't like are not the same as projects nobody wants. Unless you can actually name one...
Replacing signs that are in fine condition is something I am sure most could agree is a waste of money

How many times are you going to beat that poor dead horse?
Did you test all the signs with a retroreflectometer to see if they all still met MUTCD specs? Did you at least request the results of the retroreflectometer readings?

inb4 "signs that existed before modern reflectivity requirements are allowed to stay up until the end of their useful life".

Based on dvferyance reoccurring complaint, that shouldn't be an issue.

I always thought their gripe was with roundabouts, not signs.

GeekJedi

Quote from: dvferyance on July 17, 2018, 04:30:41 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on July 16, 2018, 06:52:01 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 16, 2018, 10:56:53 AMThe real problem is Wis Dot waste too much on project nobody wants.

Projects you don't like are not the same as projects nobody wants. Unless you can actually name one...
Replacing signs that are in fine condition is something I am sure most could agree is a waste of money. From what I understood the Burlington bypass was not very well supported won there at the time it was being built. They also go ahead and build roundabouts even if it's not in the interest of the community to becasue they always act like they know better. The Hwy 18 and 83 one in Wales was widely opposed by local officials there.

Hmm...

https://journaltimes.com/news/local/burlington-bypass-set-to-open-thursday/article_c2e61861-5bdc-5fb7-b951-6d1707266f96.html

https://journaltimes.com/news/local/getting-around-burlington---bypass-opens-in-its-entirety/article_546c49b2-e5a9-11df-a614-001cc4c03286.html

Those two articles make it seem like they were looking forward to it.

As for the roundabout in Wales, i just spent the past 20 minutes trying to find anything that shows that there was "wide opposition" to it. I came up with nothing. While I'm sure there were people against it (there always is) there's nothing to show it was widely panned.

Both of these are things that WisDOT critics like to point to, yet both items greatly improved traffic flow in their respective areas. It wasn't uncommon to have to sit through two complete light cycles during peak times at the 18/83 and 59/83 intersections, and heaven forbid you hit a train in Burlington on a heavy weekend.

Plus, neither of those projects came at the expense of anything else, especially since they were enumerated before the freeze on the gas tax.

"Wisconsin - The Concurrency State!"

The Ghostbuster

Didn't the Burlington Bypass have widespread opposition to it before it was constructed? wisconsinhighways.org stated Burlington and the nearby towns all passed resolutions opposing the bypass. Also, does anyone know if residents of Burlington have changed their opinions in the years since the bypass was completed?

GeekJedi

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 18, 2018, 04:48:21 PM
Didn't the Burlington Bypass have widespread opposition to it before it was constructed? wisconsinhighways.org stated Burlington and the nearby towns all passed resolutions opposing the bypass. Also, does anyone know if residents of Burlington have changed their opinions in the years since the bypass was completed?

My understanding was they opposed it due to the route (and the four lanes) and not the necessity.
"Wisconsin - The Concurrency State!"

SEWIGuy

Quote from: GeekJedi on July 18, 2018, 02:55:15 PM
Both of these are things that WisDOT critics like to point to, yet both items greatly improved traffic flow in their respective areas. It wasn't uncommon to have to sit through two complete light cycles during peak times at the 18/83 and 59/83 intersections, and heaven forbid you hit a train in Burlington on a heavy weekend.


I've spent a lot of time in Green Bay over the past couple of months, and I have to tell you, the roundabouts are EVERYWHERE.  And people seem to have gotten to the point where they grudgingly accept them, but they don't like them.  I think what it comes down to is that people would rather simply drive straight even if it means sitting at a light for a short while.  "Improved traffic flow" just isn't as important as simplicity.  I also think there is a wariness that they aren't quite sure what others are going to do.

And I get it.  I fully understand why they are used.  But where I am staying, I have to go through three back to back to back just as I get off the highway.  Then I drive about a mile down the road and go through two more.  And it's a pain.  Honestly lights are just easier.

tribar

Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 19, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
Quote from: GeekJedi on July 18, 2018, 02:55:15 PM
Both of these are things that WisDOT critics like to point to, yet both items greatly improved traffic flow in their respective areas. It wasn't uncommon to have to sit through two complete light cycles during peak times at the 18/83 and 59/83 intersections, and heaven forbid you hit a train in Burlington on a heavy weekend.


I've spent a lot of time in Green Bay over the past couple of months, and I have to tell you, the roundabouts are EVERYWHERE.  And people seem to have gotten to the point where they grudgingly accept them, but they don't like them.  I think what it comes down to is that people would rather simply drive straight even if it means sitting at a light for a short while.  "Improved traffic flow" just isn't as important as simplicity.  I also think there is a wariness that they aren't quite sure what others are going to do.

And I get it.  I fully understand why they are used.  But where I am staying, I have to go through three back to back to back just as I get off the highway.  Then I drive about a mile down the road and go through two more.  And it's a pain.  Honestly lights are just easier.

I agree that Wisconsin goes a little overboard on roundabouts but think of all the time they have saved you. I have one on my commute and it has no doubt saved me hours of waiting at lights the past few years. It's amazing how any people would rather a drive be simple than to get from Point A to B as quickly and efficiently as possible.

GeekJedi

Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 19, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
Honestly lights are just easier.

That's actually one of the selling points of roundabouts. They force you to pay attention and drive more carefully. It's one of the reasons they like them for congested or dangerous intersections.
"Wisconsin - The Concurrency State!"

SEWIGuy

Quote from: tribar on July 19, 2018, 10:43:51 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 19, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
Quote from: GeekJedi on July 18, 2018, 02:55:15 PM
Both of these are things that WisDOT critics like to point to, yet both items greatly improved traffic flow in their respective areas. It wasn't uncommon to have to sit through two complete light cycles during peak times at the 18/83 and 59/83 intersections, and heaven forbid you hit a train in Burlington on a heavy weekend.


I've spent a lot of time in Green Bay over the past couple of months, and I have to tell you, the roundabouts are EVERYWHERE.  And people seem to have gotten to the point where they grudgingly accept them, but they don't like them.  I think what it comes down to is that people would rather simply drive straight even if it means sitting at a light for a short while.  "Improved traffic flow" just isn't as important as simplicity.  I also think there is a wariness that they aren't quite sure what others are going to do.

And I get it.  I fully understand why they are used.  But where I am staying, I have to go through three back to back to back just as I get off the highway.  Then I drive about a mile down the road and go through two more.  And it's a pain.  Honestly lights are just easier.

I agree that Wisconsin goes a little overboard on roundabouts but think of all the time they have saved you. I have one on my commute and it has no doubt saved me hours of waiting at lights the past few years. It's amazing how any people would rather a drive be simple than to get from Point A to B as quickly and efficiently as possible.


Eh.  It's Green Bay.  Saving me two minutes isn't that big of a deal.


Quote from: GeekJedi on July 19, 2018, 02:17:21 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 19, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
Honestly lights are just easier.

That's actually one of the selling points of roundabouts. They force you to pay attention and drive more carefully. It's one of the reasons they like them for congested or dangerous intersections.


As I said, I get it.  That doesn't mean I like it!   :sombrero:

dvferyance

Quote from: tribar on July 19, 2018, 10:43:51 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 19, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
Quote from: GeekJedi on July 18, 2018, 02:55:15 PM
Both of these are things that WisDOT critics like to point to, yet both items greatly improved traffic flow in their respective areas. It wasn't uncommon to have to sit through two complete light cycles during peak times at the 18/83 and 59/83 intersections, and heaven forbid you hit a train in Burlington on a heavy weekend.


I've spent a lot of time in Green Bay over the past couple of months, and I have to tell you, the roundabouts are EVERYWHERE.  And people seem to have gotten to the point where they grudgingly accept them, but they don't like them.  I think what it comes down to is that people would rather simply drive straight even if it means sitting at a light for a short while.  "Improved traffic flow" just isn't as important as simplicity.  I also think there is a wariness that they aren't quite sure what others are going to do.

And I get it.  I fully understand why they are used.  But where I am staying, I have to go through three back to back to back just as I get off the highway.  Then I drive about a mile down the road and go through two more.  And it's a pain.  Honestly lights are just easier.

I agree that Wisconsin goes a little overboard on roundabouts but think of all the time they have saved you. I have one on my commute and it has no doubt saved me hours of waiting at lights the past few years. It's amazing how any people would rather a drive be simple than to get from Point A to B as quickly and efficiently as possible.
Well there is not an unlimited amount of money and they are costly. My point many times it is not in the interest of the community but they will go ahead with it anyways regardless of public opinion. And they shouldn't becasue it's our money they are spending. The Waukesha west bypass was another one that was not generally liked by the residents of the west side of Waukesha. Again the DOT did not care about the will of the people in fact they never do. This is how we could save money.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: dvferyance on July 19, 2018, 05:20:12 PM
Quote from: tribar on July 19, 2018, 10:43:51 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 19, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
Quote from: GeekJedi on July 18, 2018, 02:55:15 PM
Both of these are things that WisDOT critics like to point to, yet both items greatly improved traffic flow in their respective areas. It wasn't uncommon to have to sit through two complete light cycles during peak times at the 18/83 and 59/83 intersections, and heaven forbid you hit a train in Burlington on a heavy weekend.


I've spent a lot of time in Green Bay over the past couple of months, and I have to tell you, the roundabouts are EVERYWHERE.  And people seem to have gotten to the point where they grudgingly accept them, but they don't like them.  I think what it comes down to is that people would rather simply drive straight even if it means sitting at a light for a short while.  "Improved traffic flow" just isn't as important as simplicity.  I also think there is a wariness that they aren't quite sure what others are going to do.

And I get it.  I fully understand why they are used.  But where I am staying, I have to go through three back to back to back just as I get off the highway.  Then I drive about a mile down the road and go through two more.  And it's a pain.  Honestly lights are just easier.

I agree that Wisconsin goes a little overboard on roundabouts but think of all the time they have saved you. I have one on my commute and it has no doubt saved me hours of waiting at lights the past few years. It's amazing how any people would rather a drive be simple than to get from Point A to B as quickly and efficiently as possible.
Well there is not an unlimited amount of money and they are costly. My point many times it is not in the interest of the community but they will go ahead with it anyways regardless of public opinion. And they shouldn't becasue it's our money they are spending. The Waukesha west bypass was another one that was not generally liked by the residents of the west side of Waukesha. Again the DOT did not care about the will of the people in fact they never do. This is how we could save money.


You keep saying roundabouts are costly.  They aren't in the long run when compared to a traffic signal.

And no, locals should not get a veto over traffic projects that impact the transportation system at large.  They aren't paid by local taxes.  They are paid by state and federal taxes.

GeekJedi

Quote from: dvferyance on July 19, 2018, 05:20:12 PM
Again the DOT did not care about the will of the people in fact they never do. This is how we could save money.

You keep saying "the will of the people" yet you're wrong. Of course there are people who don't want it - in fact those are often the most vocal types. However, that isn't "the will of the people". The reality is that these are things YOU don't like, and therefore, you use them as examples of waste. If you spent any time trying to make a turn from MacArthur Rd. to Merrill Hills road, you wouldn't say that the Waukesha West Bypass (which has been studied for years by the very community you say doesn't want it) is not in the best interest of the community.
"Wisconsin - The Concurrency State!"

DaBigE

The way I see it, someone has three options:

  • Get a high-ranking job at WisDOT
  • Get elected to state politics
  • Move to Illinois
Until that someone does one of those three things, stop bitching about the same things over, and over, and over, and over again with little or no empirical evidence to support those complaints.

Are 5 roundabouts in a row annoying? Arguably, but they sure beat 5 out-of-sync traffic lights in a row or someone using arterial timing to combat cruising (looking at you, Madison). Despite what some think, WisDOT's not putting roundabouts in just to piss people off.
"We gotta find this road, it's like Bob's road!" - Rabbit, Twister

SEWIGuy

Quote from: GeekJedi on July 19, 2018, 10:09:08 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 19, 2018, 05:20:12 PM
Again the DOT did not care about the will of the people in fact they never do. This is how we could save money.

You keep saying "the will of the people" yet you're wrong. Of course there are people who don't want it - in fact those are often the most vocal types. However, that isn't "the will of the people". The reality is that these are things YOU don't like, and therefore, you use them as examples of waste. If you spent any time trying to make a turn from MacArthur Rd. to Merrill Hills road, you wouldn't say that the Waukesha West Bypass (which has been studied for years by the very community you say doesn't want it) is not in the best interest of the community.


Ah yes.  Mistaking opinion for facts because they only consume information that reinforces their beliefs.  America in a nutshell.

SSOWorld

I would also prefer roundabouts to 4-way stops at every highway's junction with another numbered highway like Illinois has :-D
Scott O.

Not all who wander are lost...
Ah, the open skies, wind at my back, warm sun on my... wait, where the hell am I?!
As a matter of fact, I do own the road.
Raise your what?

Wisconsin - out-multiplexing your state since 1918.

MantyMadTown

http://www.wbay.com/content/news/Two-ramps-at-the-I-41US-10and-WIS-441-interchange-opening-week-early--487537781.html

Yay, the missing ramps for US 10 and I-41 finally opened up! Do you know when Google Maps will update it?
Forget the I-41 haters

MantyMadTown

Quote from: mgk920 on June 02, 2018, 12:03:55 AM
I don't have an article link handy, but I caught a news report on local radio earlier today (Friday, 2018-06-01) that said that WisDOT is working to restart the process of upgrading WI 23 between Fond du Lac and Plymouth, WI to four lanes.  The report mentioned that WisDOT will be holding a public hearing in Fond du Lac in a couple of weeks (19-June at the UW FdL center) on a revised environmental study of this exceedingly dangerous two lane highway, with the objective of overcoming a federal court order that halted the progress of upgrading the highway over 10 years ago.

WI 23 (FdL to Sheboygan) is one of my favorite drives in the state, too, and yes, this upgrade is critically needed.

Mike

Yes, please upgrade highway 23!

(I know this is old, I just haven't been on here in awhile and I wanted to catch up so I'm just continuing that conversation)
Forget the I-41 haters

dvferyance

Quote from: GeekJedi on July 19, 2018, 10:09:08 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 19, 2018, 05:20:12 PM
Again the DOT did not care about the will of the people in fact they never do. This is how we could save money.

You keep saying "the will of the people" yet you're wrong. Of course there are people who don't want it - in fact those are often the most vocal types. However, that isn't "the will of the people". The reality is that these are things YOU don't like, and therefore, you use them as examples of waste. If you spent any time trying to make a turn from MacArthur Rd. to Merrill Hills road, you wouldn't say that the Waukesha West Bypass (which has been studied for years by the very community you say doesn't want it) is not in the best interest of the community.
Well then how do you know the people do want it? It drives me nuts when you keep saying I am wrong without providing any proof. I have driven around Waukesha and I have seen lots of no bypass signs. Dosen't look so popular to me. I can use the same augment the other way around just becasue you support it doesn't mean it's the majority opinion.

jakeroot

Quote from: dvferyance on August 01, 2018, 06:09:55 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on July 19, 2018, 10:09:08 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 19, 2018, 05:20:12 PM
Again the DOT did not care about the will of the people in fact they never do. This is how we could save money.
You keep saying "the will of the people" yet you're wrong. Of course there are people who don't want it - in fact those are often the most vocal types. However, that isn't "the will of the people". The reality is that these are things YOU don't like, and therefore, you use them as examples of waste. If you spent any time trying to make a turn from MacArthur Rd. to Merrill Hills road, you wouldn't say that the Waukesha West Bypass (which has been studied for years by the very community you say doesn't want it) is not in the best interest of the community.
Well then how do you know the people do want it? It drives me nuts when you keep saying I am wrong without providing any proof. I have driven around Waukesha and I have seen lots of no bypass signs. Dosen't look so popular to me. I can use the same augment the other way around just becasue you support it doesn't mean it's the majority opinion.

Usually, when an agency implements a major change, public comment is taken (and considered). My guess is that few residents raised any opposition, so they proceeded. It's possible that more dislike the roundabouts than appreciate them, but they don't speak up when it matters.

GeekJedi

Quote from: dvferyance on August 01, 2018, 06:09:55 PM
Well then how do you know the people do want it? It drives me nuts when you keep saying I am wrong without providing any proof. I have driven around Waukesha and I have seen lots of no bypass signs. Dosen't look so popular to me. I can use the same augment the other way around just becasue you support it doesn't mean it's the majority opinion.

Because, just as jakeroot inferred, there were several hearings spanning several agencies. There was plenty of opportunity for the public to come out in force and kill the project (which has happened with other projects). There just wasn't that kind of pushback. Sure there are people with no bypass signs. Of course. But that does not signify substantial majority.

Here's the thing - anytime something comes up that you don't agree with (or that talk radio has rallied against), you take the position that WisDOT is wasting money and ignoring the will of the people. Yet you provide no proof of that, other than because you don't agree, it must be the case. It's total confirmation bias.
"Wisconsin - The Concurrency State!"

The Ghostbuster

I have read comments for the proposed widening of STH-23 between Fond du Lac and Plymouth. It seems that other than 1000 Friends of Wisconsin, most of the people and government officials who gave comments support the expansion to four lanes.

MantyMadTown

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 01, 2018, 08:04:52 PM
I have read comments for the proposed widening of STH-23 between Fond du Lac and Plymouth. It seems that other than 1000 Friends of Wisconsin, most of the people and government officials who gave comments support the expansion to four lanes.

I don't see why anyone wouldn't support it. Overall it seems like it would improve traffic safety and allow for easier access between Fond du Lac and Sheboygan.
Forget the I-41 haters



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