Abolish the Driving Test?

[Rothman]

Setting aside the issue of knowledge and road testing, one thing I consider very unfortunate is that the trend towards allowing online license renewals–which, taken in isolation, is a good and useful thing–has the undesirable side effect of ensuring that there are more drivers who don't get their eyes checked. License renewal periods vary from state to state, of course; in Virginia, which I obviously know best, your license is valid for eight years (used to be five) and you can renew it online every other cycle unless you get more than a certain number of moving violations during the validity period, in which case you have to re-take the knowledge test. A vision exam is part of any in-person renewal at the DMV, but no vision exam (nor results of such) is required for an online renewal. That means we can be 100 percent certain there are people out there who only get their vision checked once every sixteen years when they renew in-person. I've worn glasses since 2009 and it's made me well aware of how your vision can change year to year, especially as I've approached and then hit age 50. (My right eye's vision changed a fair amount just in the past year. Explains why I was getting headaches with my previous pairs of glasses.) I'm nearsighted. I can definitely tell that I need glasses to drive regardless of the restriction on my license, and the thought that there are other people out there whose vision is worse than mine but who have not had their eyes checked and won't have it done for over ten years yet who drive every day is somewhat disturbing.

In NY, the vision test is still required for online renewals.  I think last time I renewed, I called my eye doctor's office and had them send some info to the DMV first.  It's also possible to have your doctor complete a form and then enter some details of that form online when renewing.

I'd rather wait the short time at the DMV and take the easy vision test there than muck around with my doctor.

[J N Winkler]

I received my driver's license without taking a driving test, since Kansas grants a full license to each applicant that presents a certificate of successful completion of driver's education.  I am therefore sympathetic to arguments that the driving test should be abolished.  However, I don't see them gaining traction in Europe, where the consensus in favor of ever more stringent testing is supported (or appears to be supported by) studies showing they lead to fewer accidents.

The Vice article linked to in the OP does acknowledge the possibility that studies that attempt to measure the effectiveness of driving tests can return different results depending on how difficult a given test is, as well as broader cultural differences in driving.

[kalvado]

Setting aside the issue of knowledge and road testing, one thing I consider very unfortunate is that the trend towards allowing online license renewals–which, taken in isolation, is a good and useful thing–has the undesirable side effect of ensuring that there are more drivers who don't get their eyes checked. License renewal periods vary from state to state, of course; in Virginia, which I obviously know best, your license is valid for eight years (used to be five) and you can renew it online every other cycle unless you get more than a certain number of moving violations during the validity period, in which case you have to re-take the knowledge test. A vision exam is part of any in-person renewal at the DMV, but no vision exam (nor results of such) is required for an online renewal. That means we can be 100 percent certain there are people out there who only get their vision checked once every sixteen years when they renew in-person. I've worn glasses since 2009 and it's made me well aware of how your vision can change year to year, especially as I've approached and then hit age 50. (My right eye's vision changed a fair amount just in the past year. Explains why I was getting headaches with my previous pairs of glasses.) I'm nearsighted. I can definitely tell that I need glasses to drive regardless of the restriction on my license, and the thought that there are other people out there whose vision is worse than mine but who have not had their eyes checked and won't have it done for over ten years yet who drive every day is somewhat disturbing.

In NY, the vision test is still required for online renewals.  I think last time I renewed, I called my eye doctor's office and had them send some info to the DMV first.  It's also possible to have your doctor complete a form and then enter some details of that form online when renewing.

I'd rather wait the short time at the DMV and take the easy vision test there than muck around with my doctor.

Another thing  here may be that you really want your eyes checked every few years, especially at 40-50+. So scheduling an overdue doctor's visit  is a good idea anyway.

[jeffandnicole]

I took the written test two weeks ago, without any preparation (probably a mistake). The only questions I got wrong was because I erred on the side of caution. Questions like "how fast can you drive in foggy conditions?" I'd say 25 mph when the answer they wanted was 30 mph. I think I missed two or three of those.

And that's not even a fair question.  There's varying degrees of fog, and it's going to depend on the road you're on.  If I can see a mile away in fog, I'll be driving faster than if I can't see 1/10th of a mile away in fog.  If I'm on a residential, 25 mph roadway, does that mean if it's foggy I can drive 30 mph without consequence?

The answer should be "slow down, use your headlights (but not high beams) and exercise caution".

[Max Rockatansky]

Isn't there a question on the California DMV test about CHP's preferred hand position while driving?  I recall getting that wrong in 2016 given it was oriented for a car that probably didn't have power steering.

[Big John]

And that's not even a fair question.  There's varying degrees of fog, and it's going to depend on the road you're on.  If I can see a mile away in fog, I'll be driving faster than if I can't see 1/10th of a mile away in fog.  If I'm on a residential, 25 mph roadway, does that mean if it's foggy I can drive 30 mph without consequence?

The answer should be "slow down, use your headlights (but not high beams) and exercise caution".

[vdeane]

Setting aside the issue of knowledge and road testing, one thing I consider very unfortunate is that the trend towards allowing online license renewals–which, taken in isolation, is a good and useful thing–has the undesirable side effect of ensuring that there are more drivers who don't get their eyes checked. License renewal periods vary from state to state, of course; in Virginia, which I obviously know best, your license is valid for eight years (used to be five) and you can renew it online every other cycle unless you get more than a certain number of moving violations during the validity period, in which case you have to re-take the knowledge test. A vision exam is part of any in-person renewal at the DMV, but no vision exam (nor results of such) is required for an online renewal. That means we can be 100 percent certain there are people out there who only get their vision checked once every sixteen years when they renew in-person. I've worn glasses since 2009 and it's made me well aware of how your vision can change year to year, especially as I've approached and then hit age 50. (My right eye's vision changed a fair amount just in the past year. Explains why I was getting headaches with my previous pairs of glasses.) I'm nearsighted. I can definitely tell that I need glasses to drive regardless of the restriction on my license, and the thought that there are other people out there whose vision is worse than mine but who have not had their eyes checked and won't have it done for over ten years yet who drive every day is somewhat disturbing.

In NY, the vision test is still required for online renewals.  I think last time I renewed, I called my eye doctor's office and had them send some info to the DMV first.  It's also possible to have your doctor complete a form and then enter some details of that form online when renewing.

I'd rather wait the short time at the DMV and take the easy vision test there than muck around with my doctor.

Another thing  here may be that you really want your eyes checked every few years, especially at 40-50+. So scheduling an overdue doctor's visit  is a good idea anyway.

Meanwhile I get an eye exam annually because I have contacts, so having my eye doctor handle that part of the renewal was a simple phone call.  I didn't even need to go in, because I was just there a month earlier.  Of course, I can't do the "try without glasses to see if I can get a licence without the restriction" thing... I can't even see the big E on the eye chart without vision correction.

[Rothman]

Setting aside the issue of knowledge and road testing, one thing I consider very unfortunate is that the trend towards allowing online license renewals–which, taken in isolation, is a good and useful thing–has the undesirable side effect of ensuring that there are more drivers who don't get their eyes checked. License renewal periods vary from state to state, of course; in Virginia, which I obviously know best, your license is valid for eight years (used to be five) and you can renew it online every other cycle unless you get more than a certain number of moving violations during the validity period, in which case you have to re-take the knowledge test. A vision exam is part of any in-person renewal at the DMV, but no vision exam (nor results of such) is required for an online renewal. That means we can be 100 percent certain there are people out there who only get their vision checked once every sixteen years when they renew in-person. I've worn glasses since 2009 and it's made me well aware of how your vision can change year to year, especially as I've approached and then hit age 50. (My right eye's vision changed a fair amount just in the past year. Explains why I was getting headaches with my previous pairs of glasses.) I'm nearsighted. I can definitely tell that I need glasses to drive regardless of the restriction on my license, and the thought that there are other people out there whose vision is worse than mine but who have not had their eyes checked and won't have it done for over ten years yet who drive every day is somewhat disturbing.

In NY, the vision test is still required for online renewals.  I think last time I renewed, I called my eye doctor's office and had them send some info to the DMV first.  It's also possible to have your doctor complete a form and then enter some details of that form online when renewing.

I'd rather wait the short time at the DMV and take the easy vision test there than muck around with my doctor.

Another thing  here may be that you really want your eyes checked every few years, especially at 40-50+. So scheduling an overdue doctor's visit  is a good idea anyway.

The test at the DMV is standing some short distance away from a big lettered chart.  It's easy even if you're somewhat vision-impaired.

As of right now, I do need to get into an optician to get my first pair of glasses (I was borderline during my last exam), but my issue is that my near sighting has gone to pot, not far sight.

[1995hoo]

^^^^

In Virginia, you look into this machine on the counter and they tell you to read a particular line of letters.

[Rothman]

^^^^

In Virginia, you look into this machine on the counter and they tell you to read a particular line of letters.

Conversely, a long time ago when I lived in MA, the machine you looked into tested all sorts of stuff, including colorblindness.  Much more rigorous than NY.

In fact, the driving requirements for a license in NY are pretty lax in comparison, too.

[kalvado]

Setting aside the issue of knowledge and road testing, one thing I consider very unfortunate is that the trend towards allowing online license renewals–which, taken in isolation, is a good and useful thing–has the undesirable side effect of ensuring that there are more drivers who don't get their eyes checked. License renewal periods vary from state to state, of course; in Virginia, which I obviously know best, your license is valid for eight years (used to be five) and you can renew it online every other cycle unless you get more than a certain number of moving violations during the validity period, in which case you have to re-take the knowledge test. A vision exam is part of any in-person renewal at the DMV, but no vision exam (nor results of such) is required for an online renewal. That means we can be 100 percent certain there are people out there who only get their vision checked once every sixteen years when they renew in-person. I've worn glasses since 2009 and it's made me well aware of how your vision can change year to year, especially as I've approached and then hit age 50. (My right eye's vision changed a fair amount just in the past year. Explains why I was getting headaches with my previous pairs of glasses.) I'm nearsighted. I can definitely tell that I need glasses to drive regardless of the restriction on my license, and the thought that there are other people out there whose vision is worse than mine but who have not had their eyes checked and won't have it done for over ten years yet who drive every day is somewhat disturbing.

In NY, the vision test is still required for online renewals.  I think last time I renewed, I called my eye doctor's office and had them send some info to the DMV first.  It's also possible to have your doctor complete a form and then enter some details of that form online when renewing.

I'd rather wait the short time at the DMV and take the easy vision test there than muck around with my doctor.

Another thing  here may be that you really want your eyes checked every few years, especially at 40-50+. So scheduling an overdue doctor's visit  is a good idea anyway.

The test at the DMV is standing some short distance away from a big lettered chart.  It's easy even if you're somewhat vision-impaired.

As of right now, I do need to get into an optician to get my first pair of glasses (I was borderline during my last exam), but my issue is that my near sighting has gone to pot, not far sight.

I'm in a similar situation. Passed my bullshit dmv-style test during tail end of lockdown, but still need a real test and some correction for fine tasks. Actually I wish I could do that visit in 2021, but maybe it will happen in 2023 - and I should really do that yesterday.

[jeffandnicole]

As of right now, I do need to get into an optician to get my first pair of glasses (I was borderline during my last exam), but my issue is that my near sighting has gone to pot, not far sight.

My vision has actually gotten a little better from 20 years ago, when I first needed glasses for a slight issue in one eye.  The check I had last year, the doc said I could get a pair of cheaters if I absolutely wanted to, but they're not really needed.

[JREwing78]

I've possessed a driver's license for 27 years. I've never had to take an on-road exam. I've had to take ONE written exam at the DMV, which was fairly inane. I did take a driver ed course in high school, got my required *6* hours of drive time with the instructor and *30* hours with my parents. Aside from verifying I could still fog a mirror and see clearly enough to read the chart, that was it. Never got questioned again in 27 years of driving, even after moving to a new state.

I learned far, far more about safe driving from observing other safe drivers, a fair amount of dumb mistakes in my youth, and from participating in autocross racing. I was also fortunate enough to learn the fine arts of car control on snowy/icy surfaces from living in the frigid north.

All of that is to say that:
- current requirements in the US to obtain and maintain a driver's license are a joke
- our lack of willingness to properly fund public transit means people who have no business behind the wheel end up behind one anyway
- the Vice author has a point - as inane as our testing standards are, might as well not even bother
-

[US 89]

In Virginia, you look into this machine on the counter and they tell you to read a particular line of letters.

That's what you do in-person in Utah as well. I've worn glasses or contacts for nearsightedness since I was 12, but I barely passed the vision test when I first got my license, so I didn't have any restrictions. By the time I had to renew it for the first time, my vision had clearly gotten worse, but the online renewal form simply had a question of "do you wear glasses or contacts while driving?". I said yes, and the renewed license they mailed me had a vision restriction on it. I could have easily answered no.

When I got my Florida license, they just stuck a corrective lenses restriction on it after seeing my old one. No test necessary. They probably would have made me do a test of some sort if I had presented without any restrictions.

A few months ago, my contacts fell out as I was driving home late at night. That was scary. I could find my lane and see traffic lights just fine, but I couldn't read any signs, or probably see any pedestrians until it would have been too late. I absolutely need my vision restriction and the idea that there are people with even worse vision out there without it bothers me.

Isn’t there a question on the California DMV test about CHP’s preferred hand position while driving?  I recall getting that wrong in 2016 given it was oriented for a car that probably didn’t have power steering.

That's another thing - a ton of the material for this stuff is horribly outdated. I recall my driver's ed materials teaching how to pump brakes and mentioning how select few cars had this fancy new feature called ABS where you didn't have to do that. Of course, ABS has been included with pretty much every car made since the late 90s/early 00s...

[HighwayStar]

That's another thing - a ton of the material for this stuff is horribly outdated. I recall my driver's ed materials teaching how to pump brakes and mentioning how select few cars had this fancy new feature called ABS where you didn't have to do that. Of course, ABS has been included with pretty much every car made since the late 90s/early 00s...

Actually ABS has only been required since 2005 or so. My 2003 does not have it. I would not consider knowing how to brake without ABS to be outdated, as ABS brakes fail safe to standard brakes in the event of a fault. And I've known too many people who have had accidents because they failed to understand how the vehicle they were operating worked and how to respond.

[Big John]

Hmmmm, my 2006 car doesn't have ABS.

[J N Winkler]

Per Wikipedia, the NHTSA mandated ABS in conjunction with ESC beginning on September 1, 2012 (FMVSS 126).  The article doesn't say categorically that there wasn't a pre-existing freestanding ABS requirement in the US, and various places on the Web quote different dates for such a thing--2000 here, 2004 (date of the EU mandate) there, etc.

Edit:  Wikipedia is not accurate in this regard.  The actual text of FMVSS 126 outlines a three-year phase-in schedule with 100% compliance required from September 1, 2011.

[HighwayStar]

Well we have an 06 without it, so that moves the date forward a year from what I was remembering.

[J N Winkler]

It's also worth noting that FMVSS 126 created an ABS requirement only for vehicles with a GVWR under 10,000 lb.  ABS had already been required (under FMVSS 105) for heavier vehicles since the late 1990's.

Our last vehicle without ABS (a 1986 Nissan Maxima) left our ownership in 2007.