How much will Biden's new Gas Tax Suspension affect Road Construction?

[kphoger]

A lot of gas station signs have the .009 part as a permanent fixture:  that is, it's impossible to display a price of $4.275.

True, but what matters more is the pumps, and most of them can be updated to support 0.5¢.

Is it legal to advertise a price that isn't actually available?

I've only had the price not match on two occasions.

The first is a situation I've already described in another thread, wherein someone had entered the pump price with the decimal point shifted by two places and it was pumping for four cents per gallon instead of four dollars, or whatever.  Obviously not the same type of situation.

The second was at the old Boondocks truck stop on I-35 in Iowa.  The pump price was more than the sign price by like ten or twenty cents.  When I mentioned that to the lady behind the fuel counter as I was paying, she just said that apparently someone had updated the pumps but not the sign to reflect that day's price.

[triplemultiplex]

What's stopping the oil companies from simply pocketing the difference?  I say it's a fat chance the price at the pump drops 18 cents per gallon if implemented.  There will be just some hand-waving about oil prices and the companies will keep gas the same price and stuff the rest under their corporate mattress.  A gas tax holiday is essentially a hand out to oil companies.  Screw that noise.

And yes, on top of that, it's a revenue hit to fix our shitty roads.

[kphoger]

It's a gamble.  People might buy more gas if they drop the price at the pump.  But how much more gas? based on how much of a price drop?

[1995hoo]

What's stopping the oil companies from simply pocketing the difference?  ....

This is one of the reasons the Virginia General Assembly rejected Gov. Youngkin's proposal for a three-month state gas tax holiday. The general argument you hear is that it probably becomes a function of competition–if some gas stations lower the price to reflect the tax not being charged, others would most likely follow suit to avoid losing business.

[Terry Shea]

Yeah comparing a gas tax holiday to Covid lockdowns has me ROFL.

I would guess that a federal gas tax holiday would probably reduce prices about a dime.  Big deal.

The federal gas tax is 18.4¢ per gallon. On a 15-gallon fillup, that's $2.76. I guess there are people out there who fill up multiple times a week, and who don't make a lot of money, for whom that amount could add up. I suspect, however, that for the overwhelming majority of Americans, the amount is too small to be noticeable.

There is also the interesting point about whether a "gas tax holiday" might cause prices to rise if people who think they're "saving money" start driving more as a result of "lower gas prices." I'm not enough of an economist to have a meaningful opinion on that issue, but it's an interesting question.

Don't expect much, if any of that 18.4 cents to get passed on from the retailer to the consumer.  This has no effect on the oil companies or the refiners.  Retailers historically make about $.15/gallon, and with prices constantly rising, I seriously doubt they're pulling in anywhere near that.  The retailers are responsible for paying this tax and are the ones who will benefit.  Furthermore, they may receive 20-40,000 gallons per week, which they have to pay for upfront.  So we're talking anywhere from $100-$200,000 a week to fill their tanks.  With the wholesale price constantly rising and a great deal of uncertainty about how high prices will go, most retailers probably can't chance running short on cash and not having enough to pay for fuel deliveries.

[Terry Shea]

What's stopping the oil companies from simply pocketing the difference?  I say it's a fat chance the price at the pump drops 18 cents per gallon if implemented.  There will be just some hand-waving about oil prices and the companies will keep gas the same price and stuff the rest under their corporate mattress.  A gas tax holiday is essentially a hand out to oil companies.  Screw that noise.

And yes, on top of that, it's a revenue hit to fix our shitty roads.

What's stopping the oil companies from simply pocketing the difference?  I say it's a fat chance the price at the pump drops 18 cents per gallon if implemented.  There will be just some hand-waving about oil prices and the companies will keep gas the same price and stuff the rest under their corporate mattress.  A gas tax holiday is essentially a hand out to oil companies.  Screw that noise.

And yes, on top of that, it's a revenue hit to fix our shitty roads.

This has nothing to do with the oil companies or the refiners.  The tax is imposed on the retailers.  They're the ones who will benefit from this, but they typically only make about $.15/gallon.  I wouldn't expect them to pass on much, if any, of this tax holiday.  With wholesale prices constantly rising, they're probably making far less than $.15/gallon right now.  And considering that they may typically require 20-40,000 gallons/week costing them $100-&200,000/week, they'll probably be reluctant to pass on any savings, not knowing how much of a cash outlay they may need weeks or months down the road.

[hbelkins]

The retailers, not the oil companies, would be the ones who would pocket the difference if the federal tax was suspended but the stations didn't lower their prices as a result.

Kentucky's governor announced a ridiculous gimmick a few weeks ago and got roundly, and rightly, roasted for it. Kentucky's sliding-scale gas tax was set to go up 2 cents on July 1. A few years ago, the legislature tinkered with the tax, which is tied to prices, by setting a floor in case demand or prices drop, and a sliding scale to capture more revenue if prices skyrocket and consumption drops as a result. The governor announced that he was going to suspend the scheduled two-cent increase. His legal authority to do was questioned, since the legislature is the body that set the tax rate and the legislature should be the entity empowered to change it. Also, saving customers a planned two penny increase per gallon is laughable.

Most gas station displays now are digital, which means the little superscript "9" can be changed to any other number. In fact, several years ago, I saw a station outside Grayson, Ky., that had a price that didn't end in "9." It was early in the morning, though, before dawn, so I didn't get a picture of it.

[zzcarp]

The second was at the old Boondocks truck stop on I-35 in Iowa.  The pump price was more than the sign price by like ten or twenty cents.  When I mentioned that to the lady behind the fuel counter as I was paying, she just said that apparently someone had updated the pumps but not the sign to reflect that day's price.

I've found this happens often in Nebraska. Not only is there often a large variation in gas prices between stations at the same exit, but many stations lure people in with a low price on the sign where there are no pumps (or maybe just one pump) that actually have that price.

Most gas station displays now are digital, which means the little superscript "9" can be changed to any other number. In fact, several years ago, I saw a station outside Grayson, Ky., that had a price that didn't end in "9." It was early in the morning, though, before dawn, so I didn't get a picture of it.

Slightly off-topic, but in Canada where gas is priced per liter instead of per gallon, often they use different thousandths digits than nine. Examples here and here. Of course they use 9s as well, but not always as a rule.

[kphoger]

Most gas station displays now are digital, which means the little superscript "9" can be changed to any other number. In fact, several years ago, I saw a station outside Grayson, Ky., that had a price that didn't end in "9." It was early in the morning, though, before dawn, so I didn't get a picture of it.

The sign being digital doesn't mean the digit can be changed.  Some examples:

Take a close look at this digital sign, and you can see that the manufacturer didn't even bother including any digit segments other than those used in the number ⁹.

Take a close look at this digital sign, and you can see that even a grade that's completely unavailable (Diesel) still has the ⁹/₁₀ illuminated.

[triplemultiplex]

[1995hoo]

I don't have a picture of it, but I remember when I was a kid, there was one gas station in Fairfax City that had a price sign showing 0.7¢ at the end. I don't recall the brand of gas nor much else about it other than that I believe I recall it being at the corner of North Street and University Drive. Maybe cpzilliacus might recall something at that location.

[tsmatt13]

Another instance of digital signs with only 9/10: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.561364,-74.579485,3a,15y,163.11h,94.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srrzQlZ3azxQMFW9gY3dy7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.

[US 89]

Another instance of digital signs with only 9/10: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.561364,-74.579485,3a,15y,163.11h,94.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srrzQlZ3azxQMFW9gY3dy7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.

Off topic, but who makes a gas price sign with regular in green and diesel in red? That's gotta be confusing.

[Big John]

Another instance of digital signs with only 9/10: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.561364,-74.579485,3a,15y,163.11h,94.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srrzQlZ3azxQMFW9gY3dy7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.

Off topic, but who makes a gas price sign with regular in green and diesel in red? That's gotta be confusing.

I've seen it the other way around.  And if you are colorblind?

[tsmatt13]

Off topic, but who makes a gas price sign with regular in green and diesel in red? That's gotta be confusing.

I think only Delta Gas seems to do this. Most of their signs have the traditional colors, but this station in Branchburg has their colors swapped too. Both of these stations opened in 2020, so I'm guessing Delta's newer stations have the colors swapped:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.568732,-74.6302493,3a,15y,217.85h,91.14t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sS1DplulUSpCAn5fluof7gw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DS1DplulUSpCAn5fluof7gw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D310.12442%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

[kphoger]

Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.

No, it's just the way signs like that show up in GSV photos.
Here's the same sign on the same day:  https://goo.gl/maps/N9LHFdiKxHA5p3kv8

Off topic, but who makes a gas price sign with regular in green and diesel in red? That's gotta be confusing.

In Mexico, the usual colors are green for regular, red for premium, and black for Diesel.  Pump handles match the sign in color, although it's all full service anyway.

Example:  https://goo.gl/maps/VMU668JpZKzqAniv8

[CtrlAltDel]

Another instance of digital signs with only 9/10: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.561364,-74.579485,3a,15y,163.11h,94.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srrzQlZ3azxQMFW9gY3dy7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.

Off topic, but who makes a gas price sign with regular in green and diesel in red? That's gotta be confusing.

Similarly, I hate how BP's pump handles are always green.

[tsmatt13]

Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.

No, it's just the way signs like that show up in GSV photos.
Here's the same sign on the same day:  https://goo.gl/maps/N9LHFdiKxHA5p3kv8

Strangely, if you go to your street view link and move forward a little, the sign turns black. Maybe the street view camera coincidentally caught the sign breaking?

[Scott5114]

Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.

No, it's just the way signs like that show up in GSV photos.
Here's the same sign on the same day:  https://goo.gl/maps/N9LHFdiKxHA5p3kv8

Strangely, if you go to your street view link and move forward a little, the sign turns black. Maybe the street view camera coincidentally caught the sign breaking?

No, the sign isn't broken. There is nothing wrong with the sign. 

AC-powered LEDs turn on and off very rapidly as the current alternates. This flickering is too fast for the human eye to detect. However, if a camera happens to fire at the precise moment that the LEDs are not getting power, the LED will look "broken". But it's not. This behavior can be observed on any LED hooked directly to AC power (if it goes through one of those box thingies on the power cord, it will be behave normally, because that box converts it to DC power).

[tsmatt13]

No, the sign isn't broken. There is nothing wrong with the sign. 

AC-powered LEDs turn on and off very rapidly as the current alternates. This flickering is too fast for the human eye to detect. However, if a camera happens to fire at the precise moment that the LEDs are not getting power, the LED will look "broken". But it's not. This behavior can be observed on any LED hooked directly to AC power (if it goes through one of those box thingies on the power cord, it will be behave normally, because that box converts it to DC power).

That is interesting! I checked, and most other digital gas station signs are like this as well.

[US 89]

Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.

No, it's just the way signs like that show up in GSV photos.
Here's the same sign on the same day:  https://goo.gl/maps/N9LHFdiKxHA5p3kv8

Strangely, if you go to your street view link and move forward a little, the sign turns black. Maybe the street view camera coincidentally caught the sign breaking?

No, the sign isn't broken. There is nothing wrong with the sign. 

AC-powered LEDs turn on and off very rapidly as the current alternates. This flickering is too fast for the human eye to detect. However, if a camera happens to fire at the precise moment that the LEDs are not getting power, the LED will look "broken". But it's not. This behavior can be observed on any LED hooked directly to AC power (if it goes through one of those box thingies on the power cord, it will be behave normally, because that box converts it to DC power).

This is because LEDs only work if current is flowing in a particular direction, right? Trying to dig up my basic circuits knowledge here...

And yeah, I've observed this many a time, though usually it's me trying to take a photo of a VMS over a freeway.

[Dirt Roads]

Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.

No, it's just the way signs like that show up in GSV photos.
Here's the same sign on the same day:  https://goo.gl/maps/N9LHFdiKxHA5p3kv8

Strangely, if you go to your street view link and move forward a little, the sign turns black. Maybe the street view camera coincidentally caught the sign breaking?

No, the sign isn't broken. There is nothing wrong with the sign. 

AC-powered LEDs turn on and off very rapidly as the current alternates. This flickering is too fast for the human eye to detect. However, if a camera happens to fire at the precise moment that the LEDs are not getting power, the LED will look "broken". But it's not. This behavior can be observed on any LED hooked directly to AC power (if it goes through one of those box thingies on the power cord, it will be behave normally, because that box converts it to DC power).

This is because LEDs only work if current is flowing in a particular direction, right? Trying to dig up my basic circuits knowledge here...

And yeah, I've observed this many a time, though usually it's me trying to take a photo of a VMS over a freeway.

There's an art form to getting camera shutters to avoid capturing the LED flash phenomenon.  Anyhow, the LED control circuit is likely not a simple 60 Hz phased input, in which the flash is visible to some people.  There are several options for control circuitry, but the simplest is the bridge-rectifier solution using small diodes.  That solution doubles the flash rate to 120 Hz and also minimizes the duration of the flash.  But if even one of the diodes goes bad (about the same failure rate as an light-emitting diode), you'll see a bunch of longer flashes through a camera lens.  I've done a bunch of circuit analyses on ring-rectifier designs, but never looked a the voltage-crossover spikes in the output.  Should be an interesting circuit review.

[Scott5114]

This is because LEDs only work if current is flowing in a particular direction, right? Trying to dig up my basic circuits knowledge here...

That sounds right, but honestly electrical engineering stuff is one of those things that just barely escapes my mind no matter how hard I try to internalize it. I still get volts and amps mixed up.....

[wxfree]

Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.

No, it's just the way signs like that show up in GSV photos.
Here's the same sign on the same day:  https://goo.gl/maps/N9LHFdiKxHA5p3kv8

Strangely, if you go to your street view link and move forward a little, the sign turns black. Maybe the street view camera coincidentally caught the sign breaking?

No, the sign isn't broken. There is nothing wrong with the sign. 

AC-powered LEDs turn on and off very rapidly as the current alternates. This flickering is too fast for the human eye to detect. However, if a camera happens to fire at the precise moment that the LEDs are not getting power, the LED will look "broken". But it's not. This behavior can be observed on any LED hooked directly to AC power (if it goes through one of those box thingies on the power cord, it will be behave normally, because that box converts it to DC power).

I've noticed this photographing scoreboards.  Sometimes it shows up with all the lights off.  I figured it was because there was some flashing.  A 1/500 of a second exposure time might capture it while the lights are out.  I think if I turn up exposure time to something like 1/50 it would catch the lights being on, but with other adjustments compensating for the long exposure, the lights might appear faint.  Sometimes the lights appear in the photo as on but dim, probably because they were on for only a fraction of the exposure time.  I've never tried to find the settings that will capture the lights well, but I need to do that, in case I want to record an important score.

[Dirt Roads]

This is because LEDs only work if current is flowing in a particular direction, right? Trying to dig up my basic circuits knowledge here...

Actually, it's the other way around.  Diodes are designed to block the flow of electricity in [only] one direction.  But indeed, LEDs only light up when the polarity on the input side of the diode is positive.