'Blue Sheet With Seal' State flags, in general

[mgk920]

Traditionally, a flag's design is supposed to be distinct from far away, since it would be carried by a marching army and you need to know whether you should be getting ready to shoot at them or not.

This is meaningless in the context of state flags.  I don't foresee Kansas and Oklahoma fighting it out on the battlefield anytime soon.

It wasn't so far in the history of this country that states did fight over borders. If you are not familiar with it, look up the Toledo Strip War between Ohio and Michigan because of a cartographical error. This resulted in Toledo being in Ohio and as compensation, Michigan got the Upper Peninsula which was part of the Wisconsin Territory at the time.

It also goes for local jurisdictions too. Ever wonder why when you look at a map of Downtown Milwaukee the bridges are at odd angles over the Milwaukee River? Before Milwaukee was a unified city, it was made up of 3 rival towns. Juneautown, Kilbourntown and Walker's Point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Bridge_War

A few years ago, the USSupremes settled a dispute between New Jersey and New York regarding where their mutual state line is on Ellis Island.

Mike

[gonealookin]

Nevada's blue sheet with the "Battle Born" emblem (not the state seal) should be replaced with a flag with a big slot machine on it.  Yes, just about all states have slot machines now, but Nevada was the original.

Alternately we could honor the mining history.  The general idea of the current flag was adopted in 1929 with some changes in 1991; 100 years ought to be a good time for an overhaul.

[kkt]

If nothing else, change the flag to use a state color instead of just the common navy blue.

State colors are, of course, up to each state. But pretty much every state has a flagship university that participates in athletics and therefore has specific colors that those athletic teams use. Those could be used as flag colors too.

Remove any text element, obviously.

Washington uses a green flag with the state seal on it.  It's the only US state with green, so it stands out a little bit - but the state seal is still too small for any detail.

[kphoger]

Traditionally, a flag's design is supposed to be distinct from far away, since it would be carried by a marching army and you need to know whether you should be getting ready to shoot at them or not.

This is meaningless in the context of state flags.  I don't foresee Kansas and Oklahoma fighting it out on the battlefield anytime soon.

It wasn't so far in the history of this country that states did fight over borders. If you are not familiar with it, look up the Toledo Strip War between Ohio and Michigan because of a cartographical error. This resulted in Toledo being in Ohio and as compensation, Michigan got the Upper Peninsula which was part of the Wisconsin Territory at the time.

It also goes for local jurisdictions too. Ever wonder why when you look at a map of Downtown Milwaukee the bridges are at odd angles over the Milwaukee River? Before Milwaukee was a unified city, it was made up of 3 rival towns. Juneautown, Kilbourntown and Walker's Point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Bridge_War

What flags did those armies march under?

[TheCatalyst31]

Maine is voting next year on a referendum to replace their current "blue sheet with seal" flag with a variation of their 1901 pine tree flag, which has seen a resurgence in popularity. I hope it passes; the old flag is a nice design and much more distinctive.

[Genghixiani]

Maine is voting next year on a referendum to replace their current "blue sheet with seal" flag with a variation of their 1901 pine tree flag, which has seen a resurgence in popularity. I hope it passes; the old flag is a nice design and much more distinctive.

Oh I like this! Found it on google.

[mgk920]

The current flag of the City of Milwaukee, WI has an uninspiring mish-mash of symbolism on a blue sheet, but there is an unofficial 'peoples' flag' that is slowly growing in popularity that did win a local competition for a new city flag design, but has yet to be formally adopted.  https://milwaukeeflag.com/  It would look nice side-by-side with the very familiar flag of the nearby City of Chicago.

Mike

[kphoger]

there is an unofficial 'peoples' flag' that is slowly growing in popularity that did win a local competition for a new city flag design, but has yet to be formally adopted

... but still manages to look like a corporate logo.

[Billy F 1988]

If Montana can evolve its flag from its current design to something that still encapsulates what the state represents without the gaudy seal in the middle, it'd be something I'd be willing to display on my wall or have flying in the breeze.

[kphoger]

there is an unofficial 'peoples' flag' that is slowly growing in popularity that did win a local competition for a new city flag design, but has yet to be formally adopted

... but still manages to look like a corporate logo.

Specifically, it reminds me of the Minolta logo.  Milwaukee's 'peoples' flag would look more at home flying in a corporate business park than at city hall.

[hobsini2]

So why don't some of the artistic people in this forum come up some designs for the boring "seal on blue" flags? There are some states that can get away with using the state seal because the background is a different color than blue or the seal itself is recognizable.

I would leave the following state flags as they are:
AL, AK, AZ, AR, CA, CO, HI, IL, IN, IA, LA, MD, MA, new MN, MS, MO, NJ, NM, NY, OH, OK, OR reverse side only, RI, SC, TN, TX, new UT, WA, WY, DC

So that leaves 21 states that should get redesigned.
Some of these states should use old designs or elements of the older designs.

Kansas proposed flag from 1916-1917 with just the sunflower in the upper left blue area.
Maine to the 1901-1909 flag (shown above).

[kkt]

Washington is disinct among state flages because the state seal is on a solid green background, true.  But the detail in the state seal is still way too small be made out when the flag is flying.  I would propose adapting George Washington's arms - on a white field, two red bars with three stars above them, which is familiar as the flag of Washington DC.  For Washington State, I'd just use green bars and stars instead of red.  Shows our name's origin, and is recognizable from a distance.

[DSS5]

Wisconsin's flag is mediocre. Yet I've somehow never come across a redesign I like. There are many on the vexillology subreddit and some are truly awful.

[CtrlAltDel]

there is an unofficial 'peoples' flag' that is slowly growing in popularity that did win a local competition for a new city flag design, but has yet to be formally adopted

... but still manages to look like a corporate logo.

Specifically, it reminds me of the Minolta logo.  Milwaukee's 'peoples' flag would look more at home flying in a corporate business park than at city hall.

I don't know. I could see this at the UN:

          

[kphoger]

[mgk920]

The only 'ulterior' thing that I can see in that proposed Milwaukee city flag is the colors of the National League's Milwaukee Brewers.

Mike

[fhmiii]

there is an unofficial 'peoples' flag' that is slowly growing in popularity that did win a local competition for a new city flag design, but has yet to be formally adopted

... but still manages to look like a corporate logo.

Specifically, it reminds me of the Minolta logo.  Milwaukee's 'peoples' flag would look more at home flying in a corporate business park than at city hall.

For cities and states (and countries), flags are their logo, or at least, the "logo" they represent to the world with broadest distribution.

Like it or not, if you see the US flag you know exactly what it is, what it means to its citizens, and who's flying it.

If you travel to Chicago, their flag is everywhere.  It's simple.  It's fairly unique.  It's easy to identify.  It's a source of civic pride.

The flag of Chicago consists of two light blue horizontal bars, or stripes, on a field of white, each bar one-sixth the height of the full flag, and placed slightly less than one-sixth of the way from the top and bottom. Four bright red stars, with six sharp points each, are set side by side, close together, in the middle third of the flag's surface.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Chicago

Someone complained that the flag of Utah is meaningful mostly only if you're from Utah.  Well, that's the point.  It's meaningful to its residents.  If it's not meaningful to you, well, you're probably not the constituency that they're worried about.

Kansas City just redid the city's flag and it's the first version I've seen that I'd be proud to put up at my house.

The current flag has meaning in various parts of its design. For example, the red bar on top represents the kindness and warm heartedness of the people of Kansas City. The blue bar on the bottom represents the nearby Missouri River. The white emblem in the center is a fountain, representing how Kansas City is the city of fountains. The emblem also has a vague heart silhouette, showing how Kansas City is the heart of the nation, and again alluding to the compassion of the citizens of Kansas City.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Kansas_City,_Missouri

The colors also happen to be (or nearly be, anyway) the primary colors of the city's MLB and NFL teams.

Missouri's current flag is pretty good, but in honesty I'd remove the seal inside the ring of stars and leave that as a white space.  Simple, distinctive enough, and relatively easy to identify from a distance.

Vexillologically speaking, there are a few simple rules that separate "good" flags from mediocre or just bad.  The North American Vexillological Association defines them this way:

The Five Principles are:

• Keep It Simple.  The flag should be so simple that a child can draw it from memory.
• Use Meaningful Symbolism.  The flag's images, colors, or patterns should relate to what it symbolizes.
• Use 2 or 3 Basic Colors.  Limit the number of colors on the flag to three which contrast well and come from the standard color set.
• No Lettering or Seals.  Never use writing of any kind or an organization's seal.
• Be Distinctive or Be Related.  Avoid duplicating other flags, but use similarities to show connections.

https://nava.org/good-flag-bad-flag

Note that a seal is different from a logo.  Kansas City's seal and Kansas City's heart/fountain logo are totally different things.  Most seals are highly detailed, which means that those small details show authenticity, but from a distance they become less and less distinct.

[kphoger]

For cities and states (and countries), flags are their logo, or at least, the "logo" they represent to the world with broadest distribution.

Someone complained that the flag of Utah is meaningful mostly only if you're from Utah.  Well, that's the point.  It's meaningful to its residents.  If it's not meaningful to you, well, you're probably not the constituency that they're worried about.

Those two ideas seem contradictory to me.  Is a flag's "target audience" supposed to be the world, or is it supposed to be the residents?

Vexillologically speaking, there are a few simple rules that separate "good" flags from mediocre or just bad.  The North American Vexillological Association defines them this way:

The Five Principles are:

• Keep It Simple.  The flag should be so simple that a child can draw it from memory.
• Use Meaningful Symbolism.  The flag's images, colors, or patterns should relate to what it symbolizes.
• Use 2 or 3 Basic Colors.  Limit the number of colors on the flag to three which contrast well and come from the standard color set.
• No Lettering or Seals.  Never use writing of any kind or an organization's seal.
• Be Distinctive or Be Related.  Avoid duplicating other flags, but use similarities to show connections.

https://nava.org/good-flag-bad-flag

Because the North American Vexillological Association is the ultimate authority on what makes a good flag?  It's one guy's opinions, and the association adopted it, and now everyone holds it up as Gospel.

It's my opinion that taking such a dogmatic approach to flag design tends to take a bad design and replace it with one that's bad for different reasons.

The Milwaukee people's flag's "meaningful symbolism" tells me that they have a sun and some body of water where it either rises or sets.  Well, that pretty much describes any city on either coast, plus Chicago.  The issue is that there is only so much good symbolism that can be represented when adhering to principles 1, 3, and 4.  Trees, stars, water, sun, that kind of thing.  And, when every city and state starts changing their flags to adhere to those guidelines, then principle 5 goes out the window:  because they all adhere to the same design principles, they begin to all look the same, losing their distinctiveness.

A flag that flies (see what I did there?) in the face of the first principle is that of Venice, and yet it's awesome nonetheless.  Good luck getting a child to draw the red dragon of the Welsh flag, but it's also awesome.  Same with Sri Lanka.  If you removed the shield from the Swazi flag, it would adhere better to the principles but become less awesome.

Or, as I posted in the Minnesota flag discussion, as a summary of JJ McCullough's take (which I generally agree with):

In the name of eradicating humdrum same-looking flags, but through dogmatic adherence to an arbitrary set of good-flag-making rules, we are instead ending up with differently same-looking flags—and not only is that not actually a real improvement, but in fact disallowing bizarre and quirky flag designs effectively funnels the chosen designs into being stale and un-unique.

[kkt]

I think California's flag is pretty good and it doesn't really hurt that it says California Republic along the bottom.

There's lot of symbolism that can be used.  Many real and mythical beasts, birds, and sea creatures.  San Francisco's flag is a phoenix rising from the flames.  (Many people mistakenly think that's representing the city's rebuilding after the 1906 earthquake and fire, but they had already adopted the phoenix before then.  S.F. suffered a whole series of disasterous fires in the 1800s.  Fire codes are written in blood.)

[Scott5114]

Because the North American Vexillological Association is the ultimate authority on what makes a good flag?

Yes. Yes they are.

[kphoger]

it doesn't really hurt that it says California Republic along the bottom

It violates Ted Kaye's Fourth Principle, therefore it is BAD.

Because the North American Vexillological Association is the ultimate authority on what makes a good flag?

Yes. Yes they are.

Any system that says Maryland's flag is worse than Samoa's flag is broken from the start.

[fhmiii]

For cities and states (and countries), flags are their logo, or at least, the "logo" they represent to the world with broadest distribution.

Someone complained that the flag of Utah is meaningful mostly only if you're from Utah.  Well, that's the point.  It's meaningful to its residents.  If it's not meaningful to you, well, you're probably not the constituency that they're worried about.

Those two ideas seem contradictory to me.  Is a flag's "target audience" supposed to be the world, or is it supposed to be the residents?

Vexillologically speaking, there are a few simple rules that separate "good" flags from mediocre or just bad.  The North American Vexillological Association defines them this way:

The Five Principles are:

• Keep It Simple.  The flag should be so simple that a child can draw it from memory.
• Use Meaningful Symbolism.  The flag's images, colors, or patterns should relate to what it symbolizes.
• Use 2 or 3 Basic Colors.  Limit the number of colors on the flag to three which contrast well and come from the standard color set.
• No Lettering or Seals.  Never use writing of any kind or an organization's seal.
• Be Distinctive or Be Related.  Avoid duplicating other flags, but use similarities to show connections.

https://nava.org/good-flag-bad-flag

Because the North American Vexillological Association is the ultimate authority on what makes a good flag?  It's one guy's opinions, and the association adopted it, and now everyone holds it up as Gospel.

It's my opinion that taking such a dogmatic approach to flag design tends to take a bad design and replace it with one that's bad for different reasons.

The Milwaukee people's flag's "meaningful symbolism" tells me that they have a sun and some body of water where it either rises or sets.  Well, that pretty much describes any city on either coast, plus Chicago.  The issue is that there is only so much good symbolism that can be represented when adhering to principles 1, 3, and 4.  Trees, stars, water, sun, that kind of thing.  And, when every city and state starts changing their flags to adhere to those guidelines, then principle 5 goes out the window:  because they all adhere to the same design principles, they begin to all look the same, losing their distinctiveness.

A flag that flies (see what I did there?) in the face of the first principle is that of Venice, and yet it's awesome nonetheless.  Good luck getting a child to draw the red dragon of the Welsh flag, but it's also awesome.  Same with Sri Lanka.  If you removed the shield from the Swazi flag, it would adhere better to the principles but become less awesome.

Or, as I posted in the Minnesota flag discussion, as a summary of JJ McCullough's take (which I generally agree with):

In the name of eradicating humdrum same-looking flags, but through dogmatic adherence to an arbitrary set of good-flag-making rules, we are instead ending up with differently same-looking flags—and not only is that not actually a real improvement, but in fact disallowing bizarre and quirky flag designs effectively funnels the chosen designs into being stale and un-unique.

I think what you're misunderstanding is that the Five Principles are meant as guidelines, not laws.  It's generally better to adhere to them than not, but each flag will do some parts of those principles better than others.  Really bad flags will ignore most or all of them.  And occasionally a really good flag will emerge from ignoring them, too.

I'm not keen on many of the flags that are being adopted today as, you're quite right, some of them do look a little "too corporate" and many of them do look alike.  I think that's more to do with lack of imagination from civic leaders (i.e. they want to use the flag on stationery as a formal logo) than it does with adhering to the Five Principles.  For example, I don't think the final Utah flag was the best version as it looks more like a corporate logo than a flag, but I did like the general concept.  Meanwhile while I actually fairly like the adopted new Minnesota flag.  As I stated before, I like Missouri's flag if we just drop the state seal out of the center, but it's a lot better than many flags already.

Maryland's flag is a very good flag even though it would be difficult for a child to draw it accurately and is by no means "simple."  It's distinctive, has a basic color set, uses no lettering or seals, and has meaningful symbolism (Maryland was a Catholic colony that was friendly to French immigrants and much of the flag's iconography is French and/or Catholic).

The Welsh Dragon you mentioned would be difficult for a child to draw, but the impression of the red dragon on a green-white bi-color is not.  That they could remember and replicate the concept, not the exact format, is more what the Five Principles is talking about in Principle 1.  Plus it's unique enough such that even if you saw it from a distance, you're not going to confuse it with some other country's dragon on a bi-color (Principle 5).

When looking at Principle 1, think of Canada's flag.  A three-field bi-color with a maple leaf in the center.  Is a child going to get the maple leaf, color, and proportionality exactly right?  Probably not, but what they'll draw will almost certainly be identifiable as a red leaf, and it will have red fields flanking a white center.

Regarding Venice's flag, I differ on your opinion of it being "awesome."  I don't particularly care for it, but to each his own.  And yet!  It generally meets the principles of basic coloring (mostly gold on red, except in those detail areas that violate Principle 1), useful symbolism, and it's very distinctive.  It's not terribly simple (though it does have some identifiable "broad strokes," conceptually speaking, that could be boiled down to a small icon) and the lettering it contains is fairly small.  The areas with intense detail are tasteful and interesting, while most flags with seals or other detail areas really aren't tasteful or interesting.  3 out of 5 ain't bad, considering how really bad a lot of other flags are, and the 2 that don't meet the Principles are at least either artful or minimized.

As a last point, NAVA is not "one guy."  It's an association of many people.  "One guy" just wrote the GF/BF pamphlet.  There's an international association for people with the same interests ("FIAV" I think).

[CtrlAltDel]

Good luck getting a child to draw the red dragon of the Welsh flag, but it's also awesome.  Same with Sri Lanka.  If you removed the shield from the Swazi flag, it would adhere better to the principles but become less awesome.

I don't think the principle of, "The flag should be so simple that a child can draw it from memory," means the same thing as being easy to draw. It just needs to be able to see in your head. For Wales that would be: white top half, green bottom half and big red dragon in the middle. The flag of Kentucky, say, with this system is: blue background with circle of stuff in the middle, and so is New Hampshire and Nebraska, and so on, and so in practice they're the same.

[Scott5114]

Because the North American Vexillological Association is the ultimate authority on what makes a good flag?

Yes. Yes they are.

Any system that says Maryland's flag is worse than Samoa's flag is broken from the start.

There was no system in place that made all of the kids in my fourth grade class avoid picking Maryland for their report about one of the states...they did that because part of the presentation involved drawing the flag and nobody wanted to get stuck with drawing Maryland's.

I managed to avoid getting stuck with drawing it then, and then had to do a Maryland welcome sign for work, so I got stuck drawing it at age 32. It wasn't any more fun then.

[CtrlAltDel]

Because the North American Vexillological Association is the ultimate authority on what makes a good flag?

Yes. Yes they are.

Any system that says Maryland's flag is worse than Samoa's flag is broken from the start.

There was no system in place that made all of the kids in my fourth grade class avoid picking Maryland for their report about one of the states...they did that because part of the presentation involved drawing the flag and nobody wanted to get stuck with drawing Maryland's.

I like the geometric countercharges in the flag, but having two of them doubled is too much. I would use just one quarter, the gold and black one, if only because the other one was used by Confederate sympathizers during the Civil War.