I-66 HO/T Lanes

[AlexandriaVA]

If the fuel tax kept pace with inflation and wasn't diverted to other things, we wouldn't have problems.

And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon.

Besides, I never understood the idea of having a closed environment between fuel taxes and highway spending. Money is money, it's all fungible. Once it's in the government's coffers, spend it where it needs to go.

It makes as much sense as decreeing that taxes on groceries can only be used on school lunch funding.

[cpzilliacus]

I find the idea of a mileage tax insidious because it'd be used to open the door to other things. It wouldn't stop at simply recording distance driven. It'd be expanded to track your whereabouts at any given time and to assess whether you're somewhere you "should" be. Doesn't matter what laws might be put in place. The government's secret little stooge court would be used to let them do whatever they want in secret.

Hoo, I have a bigger problem with such taxes, and it relates directly the antics of places like Hopewell, Va. and Takoma Park, Md. and more than a few other municipalities.

Unless mileage-based user fees (MBUF) are set only at the statewide level, small municipalities like those two (and many others) will rationalize the "fairness" of collecting extremely high per-mile fees on traffic only passing through.

On a larger scale, am quite sure that New York City would enumerate the huge expense associated with running its subway and public transit bus systems (and delivering an assortment of other services - mostly to city residents) as excuses to hammer drivers passing though either way on I-95, or trying to get from New Jersey or Westchester County to Nassau County and Suffolk County on Long Island.

[cpzilliacus]

WTOP.COM: Where exactly will the toll money go from I-66 inside the Beltway?

WASHINGTON – Carpoolers will still travel free when rush-hour tolls are added to Interstate 66 inside the Beltway in the next couple of years, but people who violate HOV rules now will have to pay up to $17 a day round trip if they go the full length at the busiest times, but Virginia transportation leaders say the money would return to help ease their commute or provide other options.

Deputy Transportation Secretary Nick Donohue says that in addition to a legal requirement, the toll revenue from inside the Beltway project must benefit toll-paying users of the road. The state will ask the regional body that decides on the improvements to prove that the extra transit options, or road improvements, have the desired impact.

"All revenues will stay in this corridor and must, by law, benefit the toll-paying users on I-66 inside the Beltway. It means we can't widen, say, Route 17 in Stafford County, because that doesn't benefit the toll-paying users on I-66. It also means we can't build sidewalks out of gold in Alexandria, because that doesn't benefit the toll-paying users of I-66,"  Donohue says.

[jeffandnicole]

Just wondering...has there been any issues with carpoolers saying they've been charged for a ride even though it should have been free (regardless if it was on the honor system or with EZ Pass Flex), or, vice-versa, SOVs are using the HO/T lanes with an EZ Pass Flex and getting (or not getting) caught?

[cpzilliacus]

Just wondering...has there been any issues with carpoolers saying they've been charged for a ride even though it should have been free (regardless if it was on the honor system or with EZ Pass Flex), or, vice-versa, SOVs are using the HO/T lanes with an EZ Pass Flex and getting (or not getting) caught?

Regarding incorrect reads and the E-ZPass Flex transponders, I have not heard of anyone having a problem with that (and if there was a problem, I suspect the news media would be all over it),

Use of the E-ZPass Flex without the 3 persons required for HOV (free) use is enforced by the Virginia State Police, and yes, they have caught some scofflaws (not sure how many).

[AlexandriaVA]

At least I-66 monies should in theory remain in Northern VA, as opposed to being re-routed to fiscal disasters like the US-460 scandal.

I'd like to see 66 revenues going towards the following, in the following order:

1) Completion of VRE expansion to Haymarket. That should be a no-brainer in terms of improving mobility along the I-66 corridor
2) Subsidies of transit improvements to existing Metrorail. We have Metro stations along the Orange and Silver line, so make it easier for commuters to access those stations (i.e. more frequent buses).
3) Pedestrian and bike improvements, also access to Metorail stations.

2) and 3) get a lot of grief by road fans and politicians in Fairfax and Loudoun, but every commuter who can walk, bike, or transit to Metrorail (or VRE) is one less commuter driving to the park-and-ride stations along Orange and Blue lines.

[AlexandriaVA]

Use of the E-ZPass Flex without the 3 persons required for HOV (free) use is enforced by the Virginia State Police, and yes, they have caught some scofflaws (not sure how many).

Not enough. I know some people who say that they're willing to play the odds because it pays for itself in the long run.

They also said it helps that VSP announces their enforcement blitzes ahead of time.

[cpzilliacus]

Not enough. I know some people who say that they're willing to play the odds because it pays for itself in the long run.

They also said it helps that VSP announces their enforcement blitzes ahead of time.

I have seen the trooper cars out there (more on I-495, since I do not drive the I-95/I-395 corridor all that often), apparently enforcing HOV (and Transurban pays for that not Virginia taxpayers).

[Mapmikey]

I see several troopers every day along the lengths of 495 and 95 Express Lanes doing enforcement activity of some sort.  Frequently they have somebody pulled over for something.

Interestingly I finally witnessed a semi use 10+ miles of the 95 express lanes and get away with it (I typically see one pulled over every couple of weeks).

Mike

[AlexandriaVA]

But for every car pulled over, how many get away?

[Mapmikey]

But for every car pulled over, how many get away?

Unless you have about as many troopers as road users, this question will always be out there...

Mike

[jeffandnicole]

But for every car pulled over, how many get away?

Hundreds or Thousands. 

Even if there was a cop on the road at all times, the 15 minutes it takes for him to do a traffic stop means 15 minutes of motorists able to skirt the law.  In theory, a single cop can only stop about 3 or 4 people per hour.

[1995hoo]

According to the Washington Post, on his radio show on WTOP today the governor said the inside-the-Beltway plan is being changed in response to public comment such that the HO/T operation would apply only in the traditional peak direction (to DC AM, from DC PM).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/mcauliffe-calls-republican-senate-candidate-liar-over-i-66-toll-proposal/2015/10/28/6f819f42-7d91-11e5-beba-927fd8634498_story.html

I find the idea of a mileage tax insidious because it'd be used to open the door to other things. It wouldn't stop at simply recording distance driven. It'd be expanded to track your whereabouts at any given time and to assess whether you're somewhere you "should" be. Doesn't matter what laws might be put in place. The government's secret little stooge court would be used to let them do whatever they want in secret.

Hoo, I have a bigger problem with such taxes, and it relates directly the antics of places like Hopewell, Va. and Takoma Park, Md. and more than a few other municipalities.

Unless mileage-based user fees (MBUF) are set only at the statewide level, small municipalities like those two (and many others) will rationalize the "fairness" of collecting extremely high per-mile fees on traffic only passing through.

On a larger scale, am quite sure that New York City would enumerate the huge expense associated with running its subway and public transit bus systems (and delivering an assortment of other services - mostly to city residents) as excuses to hammer drivers passing though either way on I-95, or trying to get from New Jersey or Westchester County to Nassau County and Suffolk County on Long Island.

That's an interesting point that didn't occur to me when I was typing that post during lunch. Crossing state lines of course means a mileage-based system requires tracking the vehicle's location at all times. Obviously it's not appropriate for the state where the vehicle is registered just to collect a tax on the total distance driven if portions of that were incurred in other states (I guess Hawaii wouldn't face the issue very much). That in turn raises the problem of double taxation if your home state taxes you on the total distance driven and another state makes you pay tax for your distance driven there. This problem already occurs with income tax. Some states won't give you a 100% credit for income tax paid to another state if the other state imposes a higher tax rate than your home state does (I experienced this several times at a prior job where I had to pay New York income tax as a non-resident–Virginia didn't give a 100% credit). I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar happen.

I have not taken the time to think about whether there would be constitutional issues if the US government tried to regulate this sort of thing, and since I'm typing this during intermission of the hockey game I won't be thinking about that tonight. I don't know whether a tax on distance driven would be a "direct tax." Recall the first attempt at a federal income tax was struck down by the Supreme Court and a constitutional amendment was required to allow the current income tax to be collected.

Typing that made me think of the interesting question of whether differing tax rates from state to state could lead to the peculiar situation of people taking longer routes through states with lower rates if doing so could save money. Obviously only a sensible idea up to a certain point, of course.



Regarding the E-ZPass issue, there is a guy on Dr. Gridlock's blog with username "sneedel" who claims his E-ZPass Flex was charged a toll when he was using it in HOV mode. I haven't heard about that from anyone else, and I'm sure the media would have been all over it.

I remember before the Beltway lanes opened some people were convinced the toll gantries would charge people driving in the far left general-purpose lane. I haven't heard of that happening either.

[cpzilliacus]

Washington Post op-ed: Beyond the rhetoric on I-66 tolls, D.C. parking meters

Would you rather pay $27 a month or $2.50 a month for your phone? A lower price means more dollars in your pocket, right? But what if one of those were an iPhone and the other a flip phone? We're buying smartphones in droves even though they cost 10 times as much as the flip phones of old. Clearly, there's more to these decisions than price.

We make decisions based on value, not just cost. But on a pair of transportation issues, we're hearing rhetoric that tries to obscure this issues. It's coming from groups of people more concerned with swaying public opinion than informing the public.

The first issue is tolls on Interstate 66. This road is a constant source of frustration for drivers and limited to carpools in rush hour in peak directions. The Virginia Department of Transportation wants to let solo drivers pay to use extra space on I-66.

[AlexandriaVA]

People will adjust to peak-of-the-peak prices for the HOT lanes and for downtown parking. In the event of the latter, private parking has always been non-static; that is, garages are cheaper on nights and weekends than weekdays. The incentive for both HOT and dynamic parking prices should be to move away the fringe/marginal customers to different areas/roads or different modes.

[cpzilliacus]

WAMU Radio: Hybrid Owners To Lose 'Clean Fuel' HOV Exemption On Virginia's I-66

The owners of the 18,000 cars with special "clean fuel" license plates are unhappy with the Virginia Department of Transportation's plans to build toll lanes on I-66.

During rush hour, only HOV-2 carpoolers are allowed to use I-66 inside the Beltway, unless the car has the exemption printed on its license plate. According to VDOT, there are 18,638 active clean fuel plates. The state stopped issuing the plates in 2011, but the drivers have been allowed to continue to use the HOV lanes during rush hour as single-occupant vehicles.

But under plans to begin tolling I-66 inside the Beltway in 2017, the clean fuel exemption will be lifted, angering motorists who purchased hybrids.

"They were incentivized by the Commonwealth of Virginia to buy hybrids and one of those incentives was that they could use 66 inside the Beltway,"  said Matt Letourneau, a member of the Loudoun County Board of Supervisors and opponent of the tolling plans.

"Thousands of people have built their lives, their commutes, where they work, where they live, around the ability to use 66. The Commonwealth's plan moving forward is to charge all those people tolls just the same as anyone else, so it's basic issue of fairness,"  he said.

[froggie]

Thousands of people have built their lives, their commutes, where they work, where they live, around the ability to use 66.

And, like most residents out there, the politicians don't realize that this is the root cause of the congestion problem on 66...

[AlexandriaVA]

66 isn't going anywhere. In fact, solo commuters will be able to use 66 more freely thanks to the toll option. And they can always add passengers to meet the HOV threshold.

Besides, terms of commuting change all the time. Bus and rail fares go up. I don't see why roads should be any different.

[AlexandriaVA]

Someone on the comments page for the WAMU article made a good point that the young/poor couldn't afford hybrids relative to conventional cars.

Bear in mind that Loudoun has the highest household income of any county in the US (within the margin of error). I'm sure all of those homeowners who planned their lives around 66 will be able to afford a toll if they really are so opposed to taking carpoolers. It's sort of funny when you compare it to areas like New York where you have commuters in less-wealthy counties paying steeper tolls. Loudoun will survive.

Maybe all that "cheap land" out that way isn't as cheap when you consider the real costs of living far out.

[1995hoo]

The bleating from the hybrid owners gets old. The hybrids aren't the only vehicles eligible for the CF exemption, but all eligible vehicles will lose the exemption. At least with the hybrid you have what is essentially a perfectly good car that will work just like any other for any driving you want to do (except stuff like off-road driving, of course). Cars powered by CNG or propane or the like are largely impractical beyond commuting and are a hassle even for commuting, but the CF exemption outweighed the hassle for some people. With the hybrid, you can easily use it on your trip across country. Not so much with the other alternative-fuel vehicles.

The CF exemption is already gone on I-95 as it is. I'm not sure why I-66 users think they deserve different treatment from I-95 users.

[AlexandriaVA]

The CF exemption is already gone on I-95 as it is. I'm not sure why I-66 users think they deserve different treatment from I-95 users.

Because you hold onto whatever you can while you can. Why would anyone give up a freebie?

They'll pout and stamp their hooves, but life will go on and nothing fundamental will shift. My guess is the VDOT always had some sort of "we reserve the right to rescind the exemption at any time" clause in the regulation anyway.

[1995hoo]

The CF exemption is already gone on I-95 as it is. I'm not sure why I-66 users think they deserve different treatment from I-95 users.

Because you hold onto whatever you can while you can. Why would anyone give up a freebie?

They'll pout and stamp their hooves, but life will go on and nothing fundamental will shift. My guess is the VDOT always had some sort of "we reserve the right to rescind the exemption at any time" clause in the regulation anyway.

You are correct on both fronts, but I still find the bleating disingenuous. "We relied on this when we moved here." So did people along I-95. They lost their free pass. I-66 people's "reliance" on the exemption is no different.

[AlexandriaVA]

The CF exemption is already gone on I-95 as it is. I'm not sure why I-66 users think they deserve different treatment from I-95 users.

Because you hold onto whatever you can while you can. Why would anyone give up a freebie?

They'll pout and stamp their hooves, but life will go on and nothing fundamental will shift. My guess is the VDOT always had some sort of "we reserve the right to rescind the exemption at any time" clause in the regulation anyway.

You are correct on both fronts, but I still find the bleating disingenuous. "We relied on this when we moved here." So did people along I-95. They lost their free pass. I-66 people's "reliance" on the exemption is no different.

Careful now... 

[1995hoo]

The difference is, I explained why I think the argument is disingenuous.

[AlexandriaVA]

I'll end my thoughts on the topic (for now) with this anecdote.

When the 495 HOT lanes were being built, someone close to me lives nearby was going on about Lexus Lanes, how she'd never use them, etc etc, wouldn't fix anything.

After the lanes opened, the topic of it came up, she would sheepishly admit how she liked the lanes and liked the guaranteed travel time. I figure many out that way (again, among the wealthiest counties in the US) will quickly come to that view as well. I expect many to continue to drive solo, because the vibe I always got from people in the western VA suburbs is that they're not the type to carpool/use public transit. Revenue from I-66 HOT will do well.