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I-66 HO/T Lanes

Started by froggie, January 23, 2015, 02:46:25 PM

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1995hoo

#275
QuoteLooks like substantial volume comes from VA 267 and Falls Church

That's pretty consistent with how it feels on the road. You move along at 65 mph until just past Route 7. It slows to a crawl next to the Metro stop. The speed starts picking back up after Exit 69 departs, though it's still usually a bit slow until after the Sycamore onramp (where there often used to be HOV enforcement for entering traffic, but of course everyone had to look).

I think it's no coincidence that the stretch between 267 and Exit 69 matches with Route 267 traffic entering and neither of the two lanes used by that traffic continuing as a thru lane. The planned widening east to Exit 71 should help with that.


Meanwhile.....

http://twitter.com/drgridlock/status/938033304384802816
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.


jeffandnicole

Quote from: Mapmikey on December 05, 2017, 07:48:20 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 04, 2017, 02:49:57 PM
It’d be a pain to figure this out, but what I think would be more interesting is what the tolls were for each part of the road—that is, by how much did various portions increase over others? The Post said there were no reported backups. There always used to be a big backup from Exit 67 to Exit 69, then a slowdown (less of a backup) until after the Sycamore Street onramp, and after that it picked up speed. It’d be interesting to know what portion of the overall tolls was attributable to what part of the road because it would indicate where congestion management was most needed.

Right now (7:40), with sigalert showing the avg speed east of the beltway to be at least 35 everywhere, the tolls if entering at the west end:

exit at:
VA 7 - $1.25
Westmoreland St - $9.75
Washington Blvd - $9.75
Fairfax Dr - $23.75
Lee Hwy and all further exits east - $30.00

Looks like substantial volume comes from VA 267 and Falls Church

Traffic does not have to be at any sort of standstill to drive up the tolls.  It might be appropriate to recalibrate their algorithm if there are no backups and the toll is $30 for 10 miles.  At the height of afternoon rush, the outer loop's 14 miles, which does have brief slowdowns occasionally, hovers in the $18-22 range.

Being the purpose is to avoid backups, the $30 may be appropriate.  Bringing it down to $25 and having backups will irritate everyone; Keeping it at $30 with no backups irritates those that don't want to pay $30. 

Or, as mentioned, a high toll is designed to discourage most everyone from using the road until congestion that is forming dissipates.



1995hoo

It seems to me that if the toll is high, traffic is moving well, and some people say it's too expensive, then it's working exactly as intended.

Channel 9's Ellen Bryan says it briefly hit $40 a while ago.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Mapmikey

I don't recall hearing it for the opening of 66 toll lanes, but for the beltway and 95/395 advertising campaigns it was suggested that people using the toll lanes would only want to do so when they needed a guaranteed more consistent commute on a given day.

Another distinction that might contribute to the higher tolls on 66 than experienced elsewhere around here is that no added capacity came with the tolls, and the baseline amount of traffic using the 66 lanes was already not completely wide open, so it probably doesn't take much extra traffic from the toll payers to drive it up.

KEVIN_224

Is there any good alternative to that interstate? I've only been in the Rosslyn neighborhood in Arlington, right around the Key Bridge to Georgetown. (I'm from Connecticut and was last in that area in May of 2015.)

oscar

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on December 05, 2017, 09:16:17 AM
Is there any good alternative to that interstate? I've only been in the Rosslyn neighborhood in Arlington, right around the Key Bridge to Georgetown. (I'm from Connecticut and was last in that area in May of 2015.)

Probably the best ones are US 50, and the George Washington Memorial Parkway. US 50 has a mix of stoplights and interchanges. The Parkway is perhaps the better alternative for people driving in from the area between Tysons Corner and Leesburg, including Dulles Airport.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

WillWeaverRVA

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on December 05, 2017, 09:16:17 AM
Is there any good alternative to that interstate? I've only been in the Rosslyn neighborhood in Arlington, right around the Key Bridge to Georgetown. (I'm from Connecticut and was last in that area in May of 2015.)
US 29 and US 50 roughly parallel I-66 in Arlington County and could theoretically serve as a free alternative, but they're a traffic nightmare in and of themselves.
Will Weaver
WillWeaverRVA Photography | Twitter

"But how will the oxen know where to drown if we renumber the Oregon Trail?" - NE2

1995hoo

Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on December 05, 2017, 09:38:18 AM
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on December 05, 2017, 09:16:17 AM
Is there any good alternative to that interstate? I've only been in the Rosslyn neighborhood in Arlington, right around the Key Bridge to Georgetown. (I'm from Connecticut and was last in that area in May of 2015.)
US 29 and US 50 roughly parallel I-66 in Arlington County and could theoretically serve as a free alternative, but they're a traffic nightmare in and of themselves.

Even some roads farther away provide alternatives....coming from Fairfax City, back in the early 1990s my father and I worked near each other downtown and commuted together. We used I-66 after it went to HOV-2; prior to the change, we used Columbia Pike. That can be a frustrating drive due to not enough left-turn lanes in Arlington combined with a lot of buses, so you wind up constantly changing lanes.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

AlexandriaVA

#283
I think express buses are going to be very popular soon enough...

The consensus among local transportation watchers seems to be that the chickens are coming home to roost on former HOV cheats. Good riddance I say.

https://twitter.com/TranspoPlanner/status/938040370340028418

cpzilliacus

Quote from: Mapmikey on December 05, 2017, 08:44:56 AM
Another distinction that might contribute to the higher tolls on 66 than experienced elsewhere around here is that no added capacity came with the tolls, and the baseline amount of traffic using the 66 lanes was already not completely wide open, so it probably doesn't take much extra traffic from the toll payers to drive it up.

Eastbound only, there are two lanes between Sycamore Street and Fairfax Drive. VDOT added a lane on I-66 westbound between Fairfax Drive and Sycamore Street, and it really helped.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 05, 2017, 10:36:38 AM
I think express buses are going to be very popular soon enough...

The consensus among local transportation watchers seems to be that the chickens are coming home to roost on former HOV cheats. Good riddance I say.

Not just cheaters.  Also those taking advantage of the Dulles exemption and, of course all of the  vehicles with Virginia "CF" tags (mostly Toyota Priuses, also others).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

froggie

I'd argue that the worse situation eastbound is because, quite simply, I-66 ends at a mix of at-grade streets, so there's inherent bottleneck.  That isn't the case westbound, where you also have a major traffic split between 66 West and 267.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: froggie on December 05, 2017, 01:07:13 PM
I'd argue that the worse situation eastbound is because, quite simply, I-66 ends at a mix of at-grade streets, so there's inherent bottleneck.  That isn't the case westbound, where you also have a major traffic split between 66 West and 267.

No.  The queues crossing the T. Roosevelt Bridge inconsistently back-up all the way to the Virginia shoreline.  Sometimes they do, and it appears to me to be as much about traffic entering the bridge from U.S. 50 (Arlington  Boulevard) as it is I-66 traffic.

The consistent I-66 bottleneck is well upstream, approaching and passing the entrance ramp from Sycamore Street to I-66 eastbound.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

theroadwayone

Why don't they build some outer loop of Washington, D.C., and call it I-666? (Sorry for whoever's idea I stole.)

AlexandriaVA

Quote from: theroadwayone on December 05, 2017, 03:25:42 PM
Why don't they build some outer loop of Washington, D.C., and call it I-666? (Sorry for whoever's idea I stole.)

Because it would waste billions of dollars and solve a transportation problem that doesn't exist.

VDOT already concluded that the best investment would be a second Metrorail tunnel at Rosslyn.

Beltway

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 05, 2017, 04:58:57 PM
VDOT already concluded that the best investment would be a second Metrorail tunnel at Rosslyn.

Really?  When did they do that?  VDOT does not administer WMATA projects.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

1995hoo

I thought it was the NVTA rather than VDOT.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

1995hoo

Some stats. Hopefully the images will be legible if you click on them.

http://twitter.com/martindicaro/status/938172984900116480
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

LM117

“I don’t know whether to wind my ass or scratch my watch!” - Jim Cornette

AlexandriaVA

#295
Quote from: Beltway on December 05, 2017, 05:17:30 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 05, 2017, 04:58:57 PM
VDOT already concluded that the best investment would be a second Metrorail tunnel at Rosslyn.

Really?  When did they do that?  VDOT does not administer WMATA projects.

VDOT can study whatever they want. The "T" stands for transportation, in case you weren't aware.

Fair enough, VDOT only drew conclusions about throughput, not ROI. But VDOT did state that the Rosslyn Metro tunnel facilitates the most cross-Potomac movements during rush hour:

http://www.virginiadot.org/PotomacRiverStudy.pdf

jeffandnicole

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 05, 2017, 04:58:57 PM
Quote from: theroadwayone on December 05, 2017, 03:25:42 PM
Why don't they build some outer loop of Washington, D.C., and call it I-666? (Sorry for whoever's idea I stole.)

Because it would waste billions of dollars and solve a transportation problem that doesn't exist.

VDOT already concluded that the best investment would be a second Metrorail tunnel at Rosslyn.

A transportation problem that doesn't exist?  Are we looking at the same beltway that's severely congested in sections nearly every day of the week?  A beltway that was just widened to add in HOT lanes?  A beltway that had a major interchange and bridge reconstruction a number of years ago?  A new highway that was built north of the beltway?

Also, about 1/2 the beltway is in Maryland, in case you forgot.  VDOT may include transportation in its name, but V isn't the abbreviation for Maryland.

While theroadwayone was somewhat joking, you seem quite ignorant of the traffic issues around the area if you believe a single metrorail tunnel in one location will solve the area's transportation woes.

mrsman

Forgive me if this has already been addressed, but I wanted to ask some very specific questions:

Traveling eastbound, how far can a car travel during morning peak without a transponder when coming from I-66?  When coming from the Dulles Toll Road or Dulles Airport Access Road?

As you drive eastbound, is there a certain point when you lock in your toll rate?  If you drive by that point at 5:29 am, does that mean that you can then ride free all the way to DC or will there be another point that will force an exit for those who don't want to pay?

On the mid-section of I-66, are there transponder readers on the onramps/offramps or just on the mainline of the highway?

Traveling westbound, how far can a car travel during afternoon peak without a transponder when coming from the TR Bridge?

As you drive westbound, is there a certain point when you lock in your toll rate?  If you drive by that point at 2:59 pm, does that mean that you can then ride free all the way to DC or will there be another point that will force an exit for those who don't want to pay?  And if you enter at 6:59 pm, does that mean you onlly pay up to the first exit and get a free ride after that, even if you drive beyond the Beltway?




oscar

Quote from: mrsman on December 05, 2017, 06:38:36 PM
Traveling eastbound, how far can a car travel during morning peak without a transponder when coming from I-66?  When coming from the Dulles Toll Road or Dulles Airport Access Road?

Coming from I-66, you need to leave at I-495. From the Dulles roads, VA 123 is the last exit before tolls.

Quote
Traveling westbound, how far can a car travel during afternoon peak without a transponder when coming from the TR Bridge?

You can get off at the exits for the GW Parkway or US 50 westbound, or after that at the US 29/Key Bridge exit in Rosslyn. Past US29/Key Bridge, there is no westbound exit until VA 120, which is preceded by a transponder reader gantry.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

froggie

Quote from: jeffandnicoleWhile theroadwayone was somewhat joking, you seem quite ignorant of the traffic issues around the area if you believe a single metrorail tunnel in one location will solve the area's transportation woes.

He didn't say that it would solve the area's transportation woes...the conclusion was that it'd be the best investment for the forseeable future.  And he's correct in that VDOT (to a degree) has studied the issue with NVTA (the regional agency that works with MWCOG and is tasked with distributing Northern Virginia's Federal transportation funding).

Also, while you were correct in noting that Virginia isn't Maryland, you probably didn't realize that Maryland is EVEN LESS INTERESTED in building an outer beltway.



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