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DST (2018)

Started by 02 Park Ave, February 08, 2018, 07:03:10 PM

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jp the roadgeek

My alarm clock is easy to reset.  Just put my phone on the dock and it syncs up.
Interstates I've clinched: 97, 290 (MA), 291 (CT), 291 (MA), 293, 295 (DE-NJ-PA), 295 (RI-MA), 384, 391, 395 (CT-MA), 395 (MD), 495 (DE), 610 (LA), 684, 691, 695 (MD), 695 (NY), 795 (MD)


MNHighwayMan

Quote from: jwolfer on March 11, 2018, 02:30:42 PM
Quote from: cjk374 on March 11, 2018, 11:29:17 AM
Now I have no chance of working in the dark until November when the time changes back. I too prefer later daylight hours when the sun sets closer to nine rather than 5:30 p.m.
I agree.  I like having daylight after I get out of work. Dark mornings don't bother me that much

BUT THINK OF THE CHILDREN! WHY WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!

kkt

My alarm clock resets itself.  If Congress changes the DST dates, I'll just have to get a new alarm clock -- but that's a price I'd be willing to pay, if they changed USA DST dates to match the EU.

My watches are easy to reset, with a short twist of the crown.  Perhaps 2 seconds each.

jwolfer

Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 11, 2018, 07:36:42 PM
Quote from: jwolfer on March 11, 2018, 02:30:42 PM
Quote from: cjk374 on March 11, 2018, 11:29:17 AM
Now I have no chance of working in the dark until November when the time changes back. I too prefer later daylight hours when the sun sets closer to nine rather than 5:30 p.m.
I agree.  I like having daylight after I get out of work. Dark mornings don't bother me that much

BUT THINK OF THE CHILDREN! WHY WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!
AND THE PUPPIES AND KITTENS!!

Z981


J N Winkler

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 11, 2018, 04:49:56 PMSo while everyone wants to make a big deal about DST, you're really best to stay off the road from around mid-April thru the autumn, when fatals are higher.

That is not necessarily a correct interpretation of the log plot in question, which is based on crash count rather than crash rate.  The crash count has to be adjusted according to some measure of exposure, such as traffic volume, to get an accurate estimate of risk.  For a season-to-season comparison, AADT is not appropriate because it is averaged across the entire year.  The log plot is consistent with an individual driver having a lower risk of dying per VMT in the summer (more miles driven, but typically in much better weather conditions) and even a lower overall risk of dying in summer regardless of VMT (bigger driving population in the summer).
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Road Hog

My phone system at work was set up on old DST and so the time was completely jacked up when the new DST rules went in effect in the Bush years. We just dealt with it until we switched the phones over a couple of years ago. I'm sure if something further happens, we'll deal again.

jakeroot

Quote from: kkt on March 11, 2018, 07:37:46 PM
My alarm clock resets itself.

As does mine. I'm surprised how few actually do this. Mine is a Sony bedside radio from like 2009. I'm not even sure it has a manual clock adjustment option.

GenExpwy

Quote from: kkt on March 11, 2018, 07:37:46 PM
My alarm clock resets itself.  If Congress changes the DST dates, I'll just have to get a new alarm clock -- but that's a price I'd be willing to pay, if they changed USA DST dates to match the EU.

About 10 years ago we got a clock radio that has auto-DST, and which could be re-programmed for new DST rules. It might be worth looking in the owner's manual or on the manufacturer's website.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: J N Winkler on March 11, 2018, 07:55:34 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 11, 2018, 04:49:56 PMSo while everyone wants to make a big deal about DST, you're really best to stay off the road from around mid-April thru the autumn, when fatals are higher.

That is not necessarily a correct interpretation of the log plot in question, which is based on crash count rather than crash rate.  The crash count has to be adjusted according to some measure of exposure, such as traffic volume, to get an accurate estimate of risk.  For a season-to-season comparison, AADT is not appropriate because it is averaged across the entire year.  The log plot is consistent with an individual driver having a lower risk of dying per VMT in the summer (more miles driven, but typically in much better weather conditions) and even a lower overall risk of dying in summer regardless of VMT (bigger driving population in the summer).

Two different factors.  You're trying to look at an overall risk vs the amount of traffic on the road.  However, the plot graph is simply looking at the individual risk of one walking out the door in the morning.  In this case, the chart is correct for what the author is trying to get across.  If he went with risk based on AADT, then as you mentioned the chart would probably be flipped...which would mean a different outcome for the week after the changeover to DST as well. 

But then, the point I'm making would still be accurate - driving in winter would probably be more dangerous than driving the week after the change to DST.

J N Winkler

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 12, 2018, 06:24:20 AMHowever, the plot graph is simply looking at the individual risk of one walking out the door in the morning.

It is not even doing that.  It is merely looking at crash count, full stop.  The walking-out-the-door risk depends on how many people you have walking out the door each season, and that is likely to be lower in winter as people curtail discretionary travel.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 12, 2018, 06:24:20 AMIn this case, the chart is correct for what the author is trying to get across.  If he went with risk based on AADT, then as you mentioned the chart would probably be flipped...which would mean a different outcome for the week after the changeover to DST as well.

Actually, it would not.  The spike in crashes following DST is a local effect that occurs over a timescale too short for seasonal travel trends to take hold.  The chart therefore bolsters the argument that DST (or, rather, the changeover to DST in the spring) imposes an additional cost.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 12, 2018, 06:24:20 AMBut then, the point I'm making would still be accurate - driving in winter would probably be more dangerous than driving the week after the change to DST.

That may very well be true.  It may even be true that the difference between the worst week in winter and the best week in summer is greater than the bump in the week following the DST change in spring.  But a key element of the author's argument is that the bump following the DST change is a loss that correlates to sleep deprivation and is avoidable by sticking to the same schedule year-round.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

kkt

It needs a good statistical study.  Comparing mid-January through March of 1974 with the same time periods in 1973 and 1975 would be a good place to start.

webny99

Quote from: english si on March 11, 2018, 05:15:30 PM
These problems are far greater in the fall. The March change is roughly in the right place, but October/November is too late.

I agree - when you consider it as it's related to the solar equinoxes, the end of DST is too late. The beginning of DST occurs about 10 days before the spring equinox on March 21st. Therefore, the end of DST should be 10 days after the fall equinox - around October 1st.

Even better(!!!) just make the first day of Spring the first day of DST and the first day of fall the last day of DST. Problem solved!  :)

Though I'd hate to lose that hour of evening light at such a beautiful time of year, October mornings are very dark - almost darker than they are on the true shortest day of the year. I can't imagine how much more so that is in places to my west, such as Indiana.

jeffandnicole

In that case, we can just view when DST started in later April, then early April, then early mid-March, and see what differences in fatals occurred based on the date.  Same can be done with the changeover back to regular time in the fall.

inkyatari

I get an extra hour of daylight when I get home now!  Temperatures be damned, I'm getting on my bike!
I'm never wrong, just wildly inaccurate.

Duke87

Quote from: Rothman on March 10, 2018, 07:53:55 AM
DST does not work currently in eastern NY or New England.  It just starts to get light out and then you have to wake up in the dark again after the time change.  I am not persuaded that it works for northern latitudes, at least the American way.

This depends on the schedule of the individual. I find the recent time change somewhat welcome since sunrise was getting to be too damn early for my liking.

Doing it a whole hour at once is somewhat jarring to one's circadian rhythms, though. Might be nice if there were a way to shift the clocks more gradually.


The interesting thing is, I make trips to Central time with some regularity. When I do this, the westbound gain and subsequent eastbound loss of an hour is something I barely notice. DST shifts, however... I notice, significantly. I see a couple reasons why this is different:
- with trips to Central Time, the gain or loss of an hour occurs during the day. This is easier to handle than gaining or losing an hour in the middle of the night because it impacts the length of an awake cycle rather than the length of a sleep cycle. Awake cycles are more flexible and don't cause any noticeable fatigue when shortened or lengthened by an hour.
- with trips to Central Time, the clock moves but so does the sun. So there isn't a sudden sense of disorientation caused by the number on the clock and the position of the sun in sky shifting by an hour relative to each other.


If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

Rothman

Going from light to dark to light again morning-wise is just stupid.  To prefer that yo-yo doesn't seem to be very logical to me.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kalvado

Quote from: Duke87 on March 12, 2018, 08:14:48 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 10, 2018, 07:53:55 AM
DST does not work currently in eastern NY or New England.  It just starts to get light out and then you have to wake up in the dark again after the time change.  I am not persuaded that it works for northern latitudes, at least the American way.

This depends on the schedule of the individual. I find the recent time change somewhat welcome since sunrise was getting to be too damn early for my liking.

Doing it a whole hour at once is somewhat jarring to one's circadian rhythms, though. Might be nice if there were a way to shift the clocks more gradually.


The interesting thing is, I make trips to Central time with some regularity. When I do this, the westbound gain and subsequent eastbound loss of an hour is something I barely notice. DST shifts, however... I notice, significantly. I see a couple reasons why this is different:
- with trips to Central Time, the gain or loss of an hour occurs during the day. This is easier to handle than gaining or losing an hour in the middle of the night because it impacts the length of an awake cycle rather than the length of a sleep cycle. Awake cycles are more flexible and don't cause any noticeable fatigue when shortened or lengthened by an hour.
- with trips to Central Time, the clock moves but so does the sun. So there isn't a sudden sense of disorientation caused by the number on the clock and the position of the sun in sky shifting by an hour relative to each other.
You can also add associated unusual activities and schedules as clock-resetting factors for such trips. Getting to/from airport, exposure to low pressure on a plane, and non-routine nature of a trip in general may help. Once you get to bed at the end of the day, falling asleep at proper time for a new time zone is usually quite easy. That being said, 6-8 hours of jetlag can be harsh.

Duke87

Quote from: Rothman on March 12, 2018, 08:29:00 PM
Going from light to dark to light again morning-wise is just stupid.  To prefer that yo-yo doesn't seem to be very logical to me.

I would not prefer such a yo-yo. My point is such a yo-yo effect is only really experienced in my location by people who are waking up before 07:00. That does not include me - I am waking up after sunrise both before and after the time shift, and am getting an extra hour of sunlight to actually be awake during out of it.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

webny99

Quote from: Rothman on March 12, 2018, 08:29:00 PM
Going from light to dark to light again morning-wise is just stupid.  To prefer that yo-yo doesn't seem to be very logical to me.

Depends on your preference for sunrise (as Duke87 just mentioned). There was enough light to see by at 7:15 this morning (make that 7:00 for you easterners  :)).

That's not altogether unreasonable, considering (1) it's only an hour, during a time of day when many people are still asleep; (2) daylight overall is increasing fast enough to make it up in about a month; and (3) the extra light in the evening is decent compensation regardless.

Rothman

Quote from: webny99 on March 12, 2018, 09:13:57 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 12, 2018, 08:29:00 PM
Going from light to dark to light again morning-wise is just stupid.  To prefer that yo-yo doesn't seem to be very logical to me.

Depends on your preference for sunrise (as Duke87 just mentioned). There was enough light to see by at 7:15 this morning (make that 7:00 for you easterners  :)).

That's not altogether unreasonable, considering (1) it's only an hour, during a time of day when many people are still asleep; (2) daylight overall is increasing fast enough to make it up in about a month; and (3) the extra light in the evening is decent compensation regardless.

See #2.  The yo-yo is unacceptable.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

webny99

Quote from: Rothman on March 12, 2018, 09:15:49 PM
See #2.  The yo-yo is unacceptable.

See (1) - Only if you're actually awake enough to characterize it as such  :-D
And it still beats 4am sunrise. I don't deny wishing there was a smoother way to transition, but there sure as heck isn't a better way I can think of.

kkt

You want to adjust the clocks every week, 10 minutes at a time?

kalvado

Quote from: kkt on March 12, 2018, 09:35:23 PM
You want to adjust the clocks every week, 10 minutes at a time?
Actually when the world was less connected people could start their day at dawn - or with some offset to dawn. That is equivalent to daily adjustment fo that many seconds. Difficult to do that these days, though.
But having less discrete timing, say 60 hourletts of 24 minutes a day would help both with better daylight saving adjustment and better matching of local time to timezone.

Duke87

#198
Quote from: kkt on March 12, 2018, 09:35:23 PM
You want to adjust the clocks every week, 10 minutes at a time?

I would be okay with this.

Hell, adjust it two minutes a day every day from Feb 20th (21st in leap years) - Mar 21st and Sep 21st - Oct 20th. This would avoid any yoyo effect for most of the US, by keeping the amount of daily clock shift below the daily change in length of sunlight around the equinox.

And it would avoid any jarring sudden disruptions to people's circadian rhythms - it would merely be experienced as a month in which the time of sunrise barely changes (for latitudes in the 30s) or shifts relatively slowly (for latitudes in the 40s) but the time of sunset shifts relatively quickly.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

jp the roadgeek

Well, since a solar year is 365.25 days, why not allocate the extra six hours over 365 days every year instead of adding a leap year?  Would add a little over 59 seconds every day if you allocate the extra 21,600 seconds over 365 days. 
Interstates I've clinched: 97, 290 (MA), 291 (CT), 291 (MA), 293, 295 (DE-NJ-PA), 295 (RI-MA), 384, 391, 395 (CT-MA), 395 (MD), 495 (DE), 610 (LA), 684, 691, 695 (MD), 695 (NY), 795 (MD)



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