New Jersey Turnpike

[vdeane]

What is odd is there is no 19E but a 19W, however 17 exists fine as non suffixed. They have to add a W to create 19 which is odd.

Odder to me is that 19W, while physically north of the 18W toll plaza, is south of what was, at least as built, actual Exit 18 (U.S. 46). And if they are going to justify it because it's north of the 18W plaza, that's not consistent with the east side where 17 is north of the 18E plaza.

One of the quirks with some of the northeastern toll roads is that the "exit number" for the end of the ticket system is the toll plaza, not the interchange just past it, which is not numbered.  So 18E and 18W are actually the toll barriers, while US 46 has no number northbound and is 68 southbound.  That does still leave the question of 17, but I think they wanted to differentiate it from 16E since it's a fixed-rate toll while keeping 18 the end of the turnpike for both directions.  The number also predates the eastern/western split and they probably didn't feel the need to change it.  19W came later and historically was an event-only toll-free interchange that lacked a number, so different people making different decisions.

[lstone19]

What is odd is there is no 19E but a 19W, however 17 exists fine as non suffixed. They have to add a W to create 19 which is odd.

Odder to me is that 19W, while physically north of the 18W toll plaza, is south of what was, at least as built, actual Exit 18 (U.S. 46). And if they are going to justify it because it's north of the 18W plaza, that's not consistent with the east side where 17 is north of the 18E plaza.

One of the quirks with some of the northeastern toll roads is that the "exit number" for the end of the ticket system is the toll plaza, not the interchange just past it, which is not numbered.  So 18E and 18W are actually the toll barriers, while US 46 has no number northbound and is 68 southbound.  That does still leave the question of 17, but I think they wanted to differentiate it from 16E since it's a fixed-rate toll while keeping 18 the end of the turnpike for both directions.  The number also predates the eastern/western split and they probably didn't feel the need to change it.  19W came later and historically was an event-only toll-free interchange that lacked a number, so different people making different decisions.

My history with NJ Turnpike (as a child, not a driver) goes back to when the numbers just went 15-16-17-18, there being only one roadway north of Newark Airport. And while the 18 plaza was at 16 (we moved to NJ in 1967 so the original 18 plaza was before that), I am fairly certain that toll tickets at the time (I always asked my father to let me see the ticket) had US 46 in the description of 18 (and the road north of 46 was not yet built either so 46 was end of road - I remember us taking US 46 to the GWB as there was a gas station along there where my father liked to fill up). Even today, the description of both 18E and 18W is the roads (US46, I-80, GWB), not the plaza.

Unless I'm missing one, the only toll roads left with sequential exit numbers are the NJ Turnpike and the NY Thruway so "some of the northeastern toll roads" is only 1 (0 would be none, 2 would be all, and this discussion doesn't really apply to mileage based exits). The NY Thruway clearly differentiates between toll plazas and exits of the same number, particularly with 15 (plaza is Woodbury, exit is Suffern 15 miles away - and that made sense at the time as when they did the change to make Woodbury the end of the ticket section and converted Spring Valley (14 for toll purposes even though it was north of 14A) to a fixed price toll, the toll to Woodbury was the same as the old toll to Exit 15 at Suffern - you paid for those 15 miles at Woodbury - tolls by the exit/plaza numbers did not change and neither 14B nor 15A existed).

As built, I am fairly certain they called the trumpet end of road "Exit 18" just as the Mass Pike called it's end of road interchange at what would become I-93 (pre-Big Dig) "Exit 24" (of course, that was not in the ticket section so there was never a 24 on Mass Pike toll tickets). I guess now they just want 18 to apply to the plazas and they just hope us old-timers can't remember how they used to do it.

[jeffandnicole]

Unless I'm missing one, the only toll roads left with sequential exit numbers are the NJ Turnpike and the NY Thruway...

The Delaware Turnpike is sequentially numbered too.  If they were converted to Milemarker based numbering, each Exit number would roughly double (Exit 1 would be Exit 2, Exit 3 would be Exit 6, etc).

[lstone19]

Unless I'm missing one, the only toll roads left with sequential exit numbers are the NJ Turnpike and the NY Thruway...

The Delaware Turnpike is sequentially numbered too.  If they were converted to Milemarker based numbering, each Exit number would roughly double (Exit 1 would be Exit 2, Exit 3 would be Exit 6, etc).

I should have said "(virtual) ticket toll roads".

[tmoore952]

Unless I'm missing one, the only toll roads left with sequential exit numbers are the NJ Turnpike and the NY Thruway...

The Delaware Turnpike is sequentially numbered too.  If they were converted to Milemarker based numbering, each Exit number would roughly double (Exit 1 would be Exit 2, Exit 3 would be Exit 6, etc).

In the days when I was living north of Wilmington and going to the University of Delaware, there were multiple entire years in a row when I either drove on the Delaware Turnpike or was driven on it, and never paid a toll, since there was no reason for us to take the road west of DE 896 (I went to Baltimore or DC very rarely in those days). Obviously this was after the time when there were toll booths on each exit (which I do remember).

For that reason,  was hard for me to think of it as a turnpike when I was in college. 

[vdeane]

What is odd is there is no 19E but a 19W, however 17 exists fine as non suffixed. They have to add a W to create 19 which is odd.

Odder to me is that 19W, while physically north of the 18W toll plaza, is south of what was, at least as built, actual Exit 18 (U.S. 46). And if they are going to justify it because it's north of the 18W plaza, that's not consistent with the east side where 17 is north of the 18E plaza.

One of the quirks with some of the northeastern toll roads is that the "exit number" for the end of the ticket system is the toll plaza, not the interchange just past it, which is not numbered.  So 18E and 18W are actually the toll barriers, while US 46 has no number northbound and is 68 southbound.  That does still leave the question of 17, but I think they wanted to differentiate it from 16E since it's a fixed-rate toll while keeping 18 the end of the turnpike for both directions.  The number also predates the eastern/western split and they probably didn't feel the need to change it.  19W came later and historically was an event-only toll-free interchange that lacked a number, so different people making different decisions.

My history with NJ Turnpike (as a child, not a driver) goes back to when the numbers just went 15-16-17-18, there being only one roadway north of Newark Airport. And while the 18 plaza was at 16 (we moved to NJ in 1967 so the original 18 plaza was before that), I am fairly certain that toll tickets at the time (I always asked my father to let me see the ticket) had US 46 in the description of 18 (and the road north of 46 was not yet built either so 46 was end of road - I remember us taking US 46 to the GWB as there was a gas station along there where my father liked to fill up). Even today, the description of both 18E and 18W is the roads (US46, I-80, GWB), not the plaza.

Unless I'm missing one, the only toll roads left with sequential exit numbers are the NJ Turnpike and the NY Thruway so "some of the northeastern toll roads" is only 1 (0 would be none, 2 would be all, and this discussion doesn't really apply to mileage based exits). The NY Thruway clearly differentiates between toll plazas and exits of the same number, particularly with 15 (plaza is Woodbury, exit is Suffern 15 miles away - and that made sense at the time as when they did the change to make Woodbury the end of the ticket section and converted Spring Valley (14 for toll purposes even though it was north of 14A) to a fixed price toll, the toll to Woodbury was the same as the old toll to Exit 15 at Suffern - you paid for those 15 miles at Woodbury - tolls by the exit/plaza numbers did not change and neither 14B nor 15A existed).

As built, I am fairly certain they called the trumpet end of road "Exit 18" just as the Mass Pike called it's end of road interchange at what would become I-93 (pre-Big Dig) "Exit 24" (of course, that was not in the ticket section so there was never a 24 on Mass Pike toll tickets). I guess now they just want 18 to apply to the plazas and they just hope us old-timers can't remember how they used to do it.

Yeah, the description is for roads following, but still, no signed exit numbers.  This is particularly obvious at the other end with US 40.  No "exit 1" signage to be seen.

The MassPike used to do something similar.  What is now exit 131 used to be exit 18 EB and 20 WB.  Where was 19?  That was the mainline toll plaza in the middle.  Exit 123 used to be split between 14 and 15, depending on whether one paid the ticket toll from the west or the barrier toll from the east.

The Ohio Turnpike is an interesting example of a toll road doing this with distance-based exit numbers.  2 is Westgate, not OH 49, which doesn't have an exit number.  Even the Pennsylvania Turnpike gets in on the action!  "Exit 20" on I-476 SB (and the Turnpike mainline too ) is for the Mid-County toll barrier, while the interchange between I-276 and I-476 lacks a number from either route.

[roadman65]

Then you had the NYS Thruway that had two exit 15's in the ticket days. The Woodbury Plaza was Exit 15 for the ticket system and for I-287 into NJ as an overall ramp exit number.

I think NJTA was trying to avoid this.

Also in NJ US 130 has no exit number on the Pearl Harbor Extension.  Even when it was an EB only exit to Cedar Lane it had none, but the NJTA did in paperwork call it 6A.

[Henry]

https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZZrUqcx4zpQjiqRG7
Wonder if this I-95 shield will soon be replaced.

I think changing this out would add confusion as I-95 is the straight through route and the eastern spur isn't long enough of a loop to warrant its own number.

As of today, I-95 splits in two, which isn't supposed to happen.  And there are loops that are shorter; just look at I-277 in Charlotte.

277 might be shorter but it has way more exits

If they absolutely have to assign an Interstate route number to both legs, why not simplify it by calling them 95W and 95E ?

I've always thought that, but the ship has sailed. I-35 has not one, but two, E/W splits on its route, so there'd be a precedent to this.

[lstone19]

The MassPike used to do something similar.  What is now exit 131 used to be exit 18 EB and 20 WB.  Where was 19?  That was the mainline toll plaza in the middle.  Exit 123 used to be split between 14 and 15, depending on whether one paid the ticket toll from the west or the barrier toll from the east.

The Ohio Turnpike is an interesting example of a toll road doing this with distance-based exit numbers.  2 is Westgate, not OH 49, which doesn't have an exit number.  Even the Pennsylvania Turnpike gets in on the action!  "Exit 20" on I-476 SB (and the Turnpike mainline too ) is for the Mid-County toll barrier, while the interchange between I-276 and I-476 lacks a number from either route.

The old Mass Pike 18/19/20 numbering made sense given the three separate fixed barriers there. There was no 1:1 correspondence between exit and toll plazas so something had to give.

As for the old Mass Pike 14/15, that was logically the same as the NJ Turnpike 16E/17/18E and the Thruway 15/16 complexes. While each implemented it different physically, they were all a "between the ramps" higher toll for traffic to/from the end of the ticket system (NJ 18E, NYT 15, Mass 15), a lower ticket toll for traffic exiting the ticket system at that complex (NJ 16E, NYT 16, Mass 14), and a fixed rate barrier for traffic going from the exit within the complex away from the ticket section and v.v. (NJ 17 (used to be tolled both way), NYT 16 fixed, Mass 15 fixed). NYT made it a little more complex with traffic entering NB at 16 paying the fixed toll, then getting a ticket at second plaza (the lanes on the east side of the 15 Woodbury plaza) that was discounted for the amount already paid (I once went 16 to 17 just for the fun of exiting at 17 and paying no toll as the pre-paid amount equaled the toll for that segment).

As for the Ohio Turnpike, it's been eight years or so since I drove that but I thought at least then there were exit numbers at OH 49. But I'm rarely looking for exit numbers when I'm on a road I know. In my home area, I may not even be reading signs (I know the exit to go home from the curve leading to it - no need for signs).

And I've given up on the Pennsylvania Turnpike. Once they decided to go with numbering by route rather than a co-ordinated system for the entire road, the road lost its identity as the Pennsylvania Turnpike. And that 20 on the mainline using the number for 476 is just wrong. But it's been about 20 years since I was on any part of the PA Turnpike.

[lstone19]

Then you had the NYS Thruway that had two exit 15's in the ticket days. The Woodbury Plaza was Exit 15 for the ticket system and for I-287 into NJ as an overall ramp exit number.

To me, Woodbury was Toll Plaza 15 while Exit 15 was the physical exit at Suffern. And that's no different that the other exit/plaza combinations as built (B3, 50, 55, and 61). But when they made the toll system change that resulted in the Woodbury plaza, the number system was long established. For those who don't know, as built, the ticket system started at Spring Valley and was designated 14. It was west of both physical exit 14 and the added 14A. 15 was a normal trumpet with a ramp toll plaza for ticket distribution and payment. 14B and 15A had not been built with 17 going around the hill rather than via the Thruway between 15 and 15A. 16 was a normal trumpet.

In the 70's, they did the reconfiguration. The main driver was to get the Catskills traffic going to/from 16 out of the ticket system. Spring Valley became a fixed rate toll, the ramp plaza at 15 Suffern went away, the Woodbury plaza was built between the ramps at 16, and the 16 Harriman ticket plaza became mostly the fixed rate barrier for traffic to/from the south plus a lane or two on its north end for traffic exiting from the north (traffic entering going north, as I described in the last note, paid the fixed toll, then got a ticket discounted for the amount pre-paid).

[vdeane]

The MassPike used to do something similar.  What is now exit 131 used to be exit 18 EB and 20 WB.  Where was 19?  That was the mainline toll plaza in the middle.  Exit 123 used to be split between 14 and 15, depending on whether one paid the ticket toll from the west or the barrier toll from the east.

The Ohio Turnpike is an interesting example of a toll road doing this with distance-based exit numbers.  2 is Westgate, not OH 49, which doesn't have an exit number.  Even the Pennsylvania Turnpike gets in on the action!  "Exit 20" on I-476 SB (and the Turnpike mainline too ) is for the Mid-County toll barrier, while the interchange between I-276 and I-476 lacks a number from either route.

The old Mass Pike 18/19/20 numbering made sense given the three separate fixed barriers there. There was no 1:1 correspondence between exit and toll plazas so something had to give.

As for the old Mass Pike 14/15, that was logically the same as the NJ Turnpike 16E/17/18E and the Thruway 15/16 complexes. While each implemented it different physically, they were all a "between the ramps" higher toll for traffic to/from the end of the ticket system (NJ 18E, NYT 15, Mass 15), a lower ticket toll for traffic exiting the ticket system at that complex (NJ 16E, NYT 16, Mass 14), and a fixed rate barrier for traffic going from the exit within the complex away from the ticket section and v.v. (NJ 17 (used to be tolled both way), NYT 16 fixed, Mass 15 fixed). NYT made it a little more complex with traffic entering NB at 16 paying the fixed toll, then getting a ticket at second plaza (the lanes on the east side of the 15 Woodbury plaza) that was discounted for the amount already paid (I once went 16 to 17 just for the fun of exiting at 17 and paying no toll as the pre-paid amount equaled the toll for that segment).

As for the Ohio Turnpike, it's been eight years or so since I drove that but I thought at least then there were exit numbers at OH 49. But I'm rarely looking for exit numbers when I'm on a road I know. In my home area, I may not even be reading signs (I know the exit to go home from the curve leading to it - no need for signs).

And I've given up on the Pennsylvania Turnpike. Once they decided to go with numbering by route rather than a co-ordinated system for the entire road, the road lost its identity as the Pennsylvania Turnpike. And that 20 on the mainline using the number for 476 is just wrong. But it's been about 20 years since I was on any part of the PA Turnpike.

The Thruway solved this problem by using names for anything that wasn't an interchange barrier on the ticket system.  Sure, the ticket said 15 and 50 for the ends of the ticket system, but those were the exit numbers just beyond the ticket system.  The actual barrier names were Woodbury and Williamsville.  The fixed-rate portion of the barrier at exit 16 was Harriman.  Extending that to the MassPike, the 18/19/20 thing would likely be Allston/Brighton/Cambridge for the barriers and just 18 for the exit number.

[roadman65]

Entering SB from 19W was odd as you paid the toll SB at wherever you exited but got the ticket at Entry point 18W. So you entered the freeway at 19 W, but entered the toll system at 18W.

Back before 19W was numbered, we were leaving the Meadowlands Arena and we came by taking the Turmpike to Exit 16W and following NJ 120 to the parking lots. When we left the arena, we followed the signs which led us on from what is now 19W. My dad got annoyed when he noticed a higher toll going home than coming not realizing he entered via a different exit plaza. I realized what was going on, that the NJTA and the NJ Sports Authority had signed exit traffic to use the most convenient way to the road SB not caring that drivers would pay, back then about ten or fifteen cents more, to enter from the next entry point, but my dad thought politics from the state of NJ suckering the consumers.

The Turnpike used to do that ( and still probably do that today) charge 14 toll rates going NB and 13 rates going SB to use 13A.  That was cause the NJTA didn't want to lose toll revenue as those going NB that were using 14 prior to 1982 to the airport before 13A opened to traffic now to the airport would be using 13A and pay a shorter distance toll. For SB it was cause those using 13 for Elizabeth pre 1982 would now use 13A and again if they were fair to charge the right fare would lose out again.  So they got this approved by the state and had the media relay this fact to the public, so people would know this scam when 13A was approved with NJ 81 at construction.

[jeffandnicole]

I've always thought that, but the ship has sailed. I-35 has not one, but two, E/W splits on its route, so there'd be a precedent to this.

But is it a good precedent?  It seems like the 35E/W is brought up as an argument that it's been done before, but it appears it's really due to both Dallas and Fort Worth, and St. Paul and Minneapolis, both wanting a 2 digit Interstate number going thru their cities, so this was the compromise.   

If we wanted to go down that rabbit hole, we could've nixed the sole 95 around DC, and used 95W on the western half of the beltway and 95E on the eastern half of the beltway. Or allow E/W or N/S numbers rather than 3 digit numbers that are the norm.

The NJ Turnpike Authority never seemed to be ok with 95W & 95E, otherwise they would've signed it as such over the past 50 years. 

[Alps]

I'll note that the Turnpike numbers toll plazas, not interchanges. That is why 16E, 17, and 18E are all in the same spot - 16E is for the exit, 18E is for the mainline, and 17 is a different plaza. That is why Exits 1 and 6A aren't signed - 1 is a mainline plaza and 6A is the lone booth left at 130.

[bluecountry]

What's going on with all the lane shifts and work in multiple areas NB past the 70s MP?

[davewiecking]

What's going on with all the lane shifts and work in multiple areas NB past the 70s MP?

https://www.njta.com/capitalprojects
Bridge deck replacements, it seems.