News:

Thanks to everyone for the feedback on what errors you encountered from the forum database changes made in Fall 2023. Let us know if you discover anymore.

Main Menu

Best and worst states at building freeways

Started by Roadsguy, June 13, 2018, 10:04:39 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Roadsguy

What are some of the best and worst states in terms of effectiveness at building freeways? Whether they're good at it (e.g. NCDOT) or bad at it because of funding (NJDOT) or NIMBYism (ConnDOT).
Mileage-based exit numbering implies the existence of mileage-cringe exit numbering.


Brandon

Illinois - both.  IDOT sucks dead penguin balls and ISTHA is pretty good at it, even if they are toll.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

TheHighwayMan3561

Minnesota is good. Not only is the Twin Cities very well serviced by freeways, they didn't overbuild outstate corridors that did not need to be freeways like other states did.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

jakeroot

Quote from: Brandon on June 13, 2018, 10:39:40 PM
Illinois - both.  IDOT sucks dead penguin balls and ISTHA is pretty good at it, even if they are toll.

I was gonna say, Chicagoland seems to have a pretty good network! Guess it's all those toll roads evening things out.




WSDOT does great work with our freeways (usually good quality, excellent markings, meters to help with carriageway flow, ATM systems along many freeways, etc), although they aren't quick to add general purpose lanes. They're mostly into HOV and toll lanes, but that's understandable given the local growth plans. They are currently planning to build two new freeways south of Seattle starting next year, so they certainly haven't given up building big roads from scratch (a step ahead of a certain state just to the south ;-)).

I haven't been to Oahu yet, but I get the impression that HDOT doesn't really give a damn anymore. I can't recall hearing of any plans to improve flow. Then again, they don't have much room to work with.

ET21

Quote from: jakeroot on June 14, 2018, 02:55:20 AM
Quote from: Brandon on June 13, 2018, 10:39:40 PM
Illinois - both.  IDOT sucks dead penguin balls and ISTHA is pretty good at it, even if they are toll.

I was gonna say, Chicagoland seems to have a pretty good network! Guess it's all those toll roads evening things out.

The ISTHA is fixing what IDOT can't do. People bitch and moan about the tolls but honestly they produce the best highway quality in the state. Small price to pay
The local weatherman, trust me I can be 99.9% right!
"Show where you're going, without forgetting where you're from"

Clinched:
IL: I-88, I-180, I-190, I-290, I-294, I-355, IL-390
IN: I-80, I-94
SD: I-190
WI: I-90, I-94
MI: I-94, I-196
MN: I-90

jon daly

Minnesota had that highway bridge collapse @ a decade ago, but I'm not sure if the OP is talking about quantity or quality.

roadman

Quote from: jon daly on June 14, 2018, 10:08:30 AM
Minnesota had that highway bridge collapse @ a decade ago, but I'm not sure if the OP is talking about quantity or quality.
The I-35W collapse had little to do with the original construction of the bridge, which was considered to be state of the art at the time (1964).  It had a lot to do with inadequate maintenance and questionable upgrade practices between the time the bridge was built and the collapse.  To MNDOT's credit, after the I-35W collapse, they took considerable remedial action to minimize the chance of collapses happening with bridges of similar design.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

Henry

Quote from: ET21 on June 14, 2018, 09:42:49 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 14, 2018, 02:55:20 AM
Quote from: Brandon on June 13, 2018, 10:39:40 PM
Illinois - both.  IDOT sucks dead penguin balls and ISTHA is pretty good at it, even if they are toll.

I was gonna say, Chicagoland seems to have a pretty good network! Guess it's all those toll roads evening things out.

The ISTHA is fixing what IDOT can't do. People bitch and moan about the tolls but honestly they produce the best highway quality in the state. Small price to pay
Agreed on both counts! Caltrans also was the best at building its freeway network, until the NIMBYs stepped in.

Quote from: jakeroot on June 14, 2018, 02:55:20 AMWSDOT does great work with our freeways (usually good quality, excellent markings, meters to help with carriageway flow, ATM systems along many freeways, etc), although they aren't quick to add general purpose lanes. They're mostly into HOV and toll lanes, but that's understandable given the local growth plans. They are currently planning to build two new freeways south of Seattle starting next year, so they certainly haven't given up building big roads from scratch (a step ahead of a certain state just to the south ;-)).

I like WSDOT's freeway network as well.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

SSR_317

If we are talking quality, I'd say that Arizona ranks with the best. It helps that most of the Grand Canyon State's freeways were built from the 1980s on and the mild winter climate in much of the more populous areas of the state helps prevent rapid deterioration (though heat is an issue).

I would concur that Illinois is among the worst, though I don't use their tolled roads (see my avatar). Perhaps that's on purpose, to maximize profits by letting the non-tolled roads deteriorate which might encourage those who can afford it to take the toll alternatives. But Michigan also has piss-poor quality freeways, and they don't have any toll roads (not counting bridges). Of course the Midwestern winters take their toll (pun unintentional), but MI's current administration doesn't even want to provide their citizens with potable water, let alone spend money to fix their aging freeways.

I have zero experience in the Northeast & Mid-Atlantic states (though I have heard some of the horror stories), nor have I driven in the Pacific NW, so I can't comment on freeway conditions in those areas. I have been to western PA though, and that state's poor reputation goes back to at least the mid-1960s (and is well-deserved, IMHO). Hell, they can't even build two little ramps to eliminate the Breezewood mess on I-70! But I digress...

froggie

Quote from: jon daly on June 14, 2018, 10:08:30 AM
but I'm not sure if the OP is talking about quantity or quality.

Nevermind that "effectiveness" is obscenely vague and can be measured in several different ways.  Are we talking speed of construction?  Density?  Meeting traffic volumes?  System connectivity?  Major destinations?  The list goes on and on...


jakeroot

Quote from: SSR_317 on June 14, 2018, 12:34:03 PM
If we are talking quality, I'd say that Arizona ranks with the best. It helps that most of the Grand Canyon State's freeways were built from the 1980s on and the mild winter climate in much of the more populous areas of the state helps prevent rapid deterioration (though heat is an issue).

Which reminds me. I am really hoping that Arizona (or at least Maricopa County) is able to find a way to consistently fund maintenance of their freeways well into the future. It seems like many other municipalities failed to maintain their roads to the best of their ability, and are now paying the price as many older freeways' original pavement is either worn out, or quickly wearing out. Never mind outdated geometry, etc. Phoenix probably has one of the best freeway networks in the country, both in terms of roadway quality, and quantity of lanes and top-notch geometry. But it means jack-squat if they aren't able to maintain it. They'll just end up like another Los Angeles, with a giant network that really isn't of great quality (except in rebuilt areas which are of insanely-good quality).

sparker

Quote from: jakeroot on June 14, 2018, 01:05:50 PM
.........They'll just end up like another Los Angeles, with a giant network that really isn't of great quality (except in rebuilt areas which are of insanely-good quality).

Metro L.A. -- by which I mean Caltrans D7, D8, and D12 -- has been engaged in a giant game of "whack-a-mole" with their freeway network for the past several decades -- particularly since the opening of their (relatively) newer facilities (I-105, CA 210, the southern reaches of I-15, and the completed CA 71 portions).  I-5 from I-605 to CA 91 is getting a complete reworking, while the stretch NW to downtown languishes in much the state it's been since the '80's.  I-110 gets a capacity rebuild with double deck express lanes while parallel I-710 gets only spot repairs.  And except for I-405, which was well past crisis stage, Caltrans is reluctant to do much of anything within L.A. city limits due to local blowback.  Meanwhile, upgrades done in the 90's on I-10 out near El Monte are beginning to show signs of wear from simple overuse, while D7's efforts in that sub-region have been since concentrated on the parallel CA 60 to the south.  By the time a revamping project is completed, attention has moved elsewhere; by the time the circle comes back around to a particular segment, it's often past the point where simple fixes will do the trick -- major rebuilds become the order of the day.  It's a bloody miracle that -- considering the traffic levels -- the system isn't just plain crumbling.  Segments built circa 1973 to handle traffic projected for 1983 are now hosting traffic volumes projected for 2033!  And there just aren't enough funds available at any given time to do more than one major regional project plus a smattering of "spot" fixes (with the emphasis on I-5 through Santa Fe Springs and Norwalk, it's no wonder why the longstanding gap on CA 71 between CA 60 and I-10 hasn't been fully addressed).  "Whack-a-mole" is about the best the region can do absent a massive simultaneous infusion of both funds and political cooperation.       

machias

Wow, IDOT's freeways get a bad rap on here, but having driven in 46 of the 50 states I don't consider IDOT's freeways to be that awful. Pennsylvania, Missouri, Hawaii, and South Carolina seem to be in worse shape than Illinois. And as others have said, the tollways in Illinois are among the best I've driven in the states. The NYS Thruway Authority should take a cue from ISTHA.

roadman65

Florida is iffy for worst, as some would argue the fact that we love to implement tolls on our freeways that are built is a bad thing, some may say the opposite as building tolls are a good thing especially if they get the needed relief that the current poor pre sprawl road infrastructure wreaks on us.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

TEG24601

Washington and Oregon seem to build good roads by and large... maintenance on the other hand is often lacking.


Michigan comes up with great ideas, builds them, then they nearly instantly go to seed.
They said take a left at the fork in the road.  I didn't think they literally meant a fork, until plain as day, there was a fork sticking out of the road at a junction.

Roadwarriors79

I like what has been done in Arizona and most of Texas. Texas is impressive to me simply because a lot of what they do with their freeways (and even tollways) cannot be done in most other states. The tollways in Illinois seem to be pretty good too. I hate that California has so many issues with funding and NIMBYs. They used to be the gold standard in freeway building.

SSR_317

Quote from: jakeroot on June 14, 2018, 01:05:50 PM
Quote from: SSR_317 on June 14, 2018, 12:34:03 PM
If we are talking quality, I'd say that Arizona ranks with the best. It helps that most of the Grand Canyon State's freeways were built from the 1980s on and the mild winter climate in much of the more populous areas of the state helps prevent rapid deterioration (though heat is an issue).

Which reminds me. I am really hoping that Arizona (or at least Maricopa County) is able to find a way to consistently fund maintenance of their freeways well into the future. It seems like many other municipalities failed to maintain their roads to the best of their ability, and are now paying the price as many older freeways' original pavement is either worn out, or quickly wearing out. Never mind outdated geometry, etc. Phoenix probably has one of the best freeway networks in the country, both in terms of roadway quality, and quantity of lanes and top-notch geometry. But it means jack-squat if they aren't able to maintain it. They'll just end up like another Los Angeles, with a giant network that really isn't of great quality (except in rebuilt areas which are of insanely-good quality).
Great point! Unfortunately, it seems these days the mantra of politicians (and their political appointees at state DOTs) is, "Maintenance? We don' need no stinking maintenance!" Instead, they try to sell public assets to private concerns, slap on a toll, and then use that money to pad their own pockets rather than spend it on the maintenance that is needed. All while those "privatized profits" could have been used to actually fix the roadways, while at the same time keeping them free for all users (who still have to pay fuel taxes either way).

jakeroot

Quote from: SSR_317 on June 17, 2018, 12:18:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 14, 2018, 01:05:50 PM
Quote from: SSR_317 on June 14, 2018, 12:34:03 PM
If we are talking quality, I'd say that Arizona ranks with the best. It helps that most of the Grand Canyon State's freeways were built from the 1980s on and the mild winter climate in much of the more populous areas of the state helps prevent rapid deterioration (though heat is an issue).

Which reminds me. I am really hoping that Arizona (or at least Maricopa County) is able to find a way to consistently fund maintenance of their freeways well into the future. It seems like many other municipalities failed to maintain their roads to the best of their ability, and are now paying the price as many older freeways' original pavement is either worn out, or quickly wearing out. Never mind outdated geometry, etc. Phoenix probably has one of the best freeway networks in the country, both in terms of roadway quality, and quantity of lanes and top-notch geometry. But it means jack-squat if they aren't able to maintain it. They'll just end up like another Los Angeles, with a giant network that really isn't of great quality (except in rebuilt areas which are of insanely-good quality).

Great point! Unfortunately, it seems these days the mantra of politicians (and their political appointees at state DOTs) is, "Maintenance? We don' need no stinking maintenance!" Instead, they try to sell public assets to private concerns, slap on a toll, and then use that money to pad their own pockets rather than spend it on the maintenance that is needed. All while those "privatized profits" could have been used to actually fix the roadways, while at the same time keeping them free for all users (who still have to pay fuel taxes either way).

I'm not sure how the privatised roads work in other parts of the country. We don't have those in Washington. Up here, it's becoming common for express lanes with tolls to replace HOV lanes, and the toll money goes mostly into roadway maintenance and improvements (see page 34 of this PDF -- only about 11% of the income goes to vendors). Just in that respect, I think tolls are great. Let the Lexus Lanes pay for the maintenance! :-D

It does seem a bit extreme to suggest tolls pad pockets instead of pay for maintenance. I don't think there's much of any evidence to support that. For some reason, these outsource fees are a common complaint out here, where only ~11% of toll income goes to the vendors (not much overall). Most agencies just don't have the resources to run these facilities, so they have to be outsourced to companies like Kapsch (which runs the 405 toll lanes here in WA, along with several other facilities like those in CA).

ipeters61

I've lived in Pennsylvania, Connecticut, and Delaware.

I'm more in tune with Delaware's transportation projects as I've spent my first true adult years here and have really gotten involved in transportation workshops and whatnot.  DE-1 and I-495 are fantastic (modern, high-speed roads with solid traffic flow), but I-95 and I-295 are a bit iffy.  When I lived in Newark, I always got off at Exit 4B instead of Exit 1 or 3, because I absolutely hated getting off at those exits with their short weaves and merge space.  I blame the rampant suburbanization/development that has occurred in Delaware in recent years for all this congestion.  I-295 just seems to be a chronic mess of construction.

Connecticut's expressways were plentiful, at least from my perspective, but fairly archaic.  Of course, I-84 between Waterbury and Hartford and I-95 come to mind.  CT-9 is my favorite highway and always will be, but those pesky stoplights in Middletown hinder it so badly (though I've heard they're removing them).  I-91 is pretty solid as it is, despite the frequent left exits.  But I went to Eastern CT State University, so the completion of I-384/84 would have been very welcome in my eyes.  By my senior year, I discovered I could take CT-31 instead of US-6 to get back home to South Windsor.  Definitely a much nicer (or at least prettier) ride.

Pennsylvania's expressways, though, are just a disaster, particularly in the urban areas (I've never been west of State College, btw).  Sure, the 1950s design can be charming, but that's only when someone else is doing the driving!  Otherwise, it can be very stressful.  I remember when I drove I-476 up to my grandparents' house and was constantly worried I would crash into the median, with how little space there is on that road.  However, I know the constraint there was the mountainous terrain of the Poconos.  I-95 through PA is equally as stressful, with people zooming by you when you're doing 70 through Philadelphia.  It probably also doesn't help that my car is ancient...
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed on my posts on the AARoads Forum are my own and do not represent official positions of my employer.
Instagram | Clinched Map

paulthemapguy

Does Texas's grandiose designs make it good or bad?

PA and IN suck.  WA has always managed to impress me.
Avatar is the last interesting highway I clinched.
My website! http://www.paulacrossamerica.com Now featuring all of Ohio!
My USA Shield Gallery https://flic.kr/s/aHsmHwJRZk
TM Clinches https://bit.ly/2UwRs4O

National collection status: 361/425. Only 64 route markers remain

jwolfer

Florida does. It have enough freeways in my mind. The interstates were planned back when Florida has a population of 4-5 million.

For a long time the divided US highways were high speed corridors but with time many if not most have become horrible traffic light infested suburban slog ways. There are examples near every city. ( US 19 in Hernando County, US1, US 27 near Clermont to name a few)

The state should have had some foresight or planning in place to limit development so the roads could be freeways or at the very least expressways (in the California sense, traditionally expressway was the term used for freeways in Florida) when needed

Z981


Bitmapped

PennDOT's new construction tends to be quite nice. If anything, my experience in western and central PA is that it tends to border on overbuilt. The issue with PA is that it still has a lot of stuff of 1950s and 1960s vintage around.

ipeters61

Quote from: jwolfer on June 20, 2018, 06:40:15 PM
For a long time the divided US highways were high speed corridors but with time many if not most have become horrible traffic light infested suburban slog ways. There are examples near every city. ( US 19 in Hernando County, US1, US 27 near Clermont to name a few)

The state should have had some foresight or planning in place to limit development so the roads could be freeways or at the very least expressways (in the California sense, traditionally expressway was the term used for freeways in Florida) when needed

Z981
Delaware has so many problems with this.  I remember reading the story of DE-1 (I think on the AARoads site) and thinking of what a mess US-13 really is.  It would take me 20 minutes to get from my apartment to the other side of Dover (only 5 miles), maybe 12-15 minutes on an early weekend morning.

Granted, Connecticut isn't much better.  The Berlin Turnpike (US-5/CT-15 between Meriden and Wethersfield) is another mess, but if I remember correctly, I don't think it's as bad as some of the divided highways in DE.
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed on my posts on the AARoads Forum are my own and do not represent official positions of my employer.
Instagram | Clinched Map

Roadsguy

Quote from: Bitmapped on June 20, 2018, 09:50:15 PM
PennDOT's new construction tends to be quite nice. If anything, my experience in western and central PA is that it tends to border on overbuilt. The issue with PA is that it still has a lot of stuff of 1950s and 1960s vintage around.

I wouldn't say anything in PA is overbuilt, but I definitely agree that with adequate funding and will behind it, PennDOT builds (and reconstructs) things very nicely. For example, the upgrades along I-81 and I-84/380 done as part of the US 6 expressway project near Scranton were some of the best PennDOT's done in a long time. The 95revive project is shaping up the same way. The only flaws with the former are that they didn't make any accommodations for widening I-81 to the north or south of the major interchange, and didn't take the six-laning of 84/380 all the way to the split of the two. Similarly, they really should be taking the eight-lane configuration of I-95 all the way to Woodhaven Road. Academy to Woodhaven is getting pretty bad.

Their new-construction expressways are great too, though rare and usually only in bits and pieces at a time (e.g. the CSVT, US 219 in Somerset County, the one-ramp-at-a-time rate that the remaining I-99 upgrades seem to be going at, etc.). The problem really is just how many outdated sections of expressway there are in the state, as well as how many missing links there still are.
Mileage-based exit numbering implies the existence of mileage-cringe exit numbering.

bugo

I don't know if I would call a deck truss bridge state of the art in 1964. By that date, truss bridges were becoming rare except for very long crossings.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.