Interstate 11

[Henry]

^^^^^^^^^^
From the various plans I've seen, ADOT has in essence abandoned any plans for a US 60-based freeway SE of the AZ 74 junction, electing instead for plans for a freeway more or less along 74 over to I-17 not too far from the present NE end of Loop 303.  Apparently that was done in part in response to the dense development along the 60/Grand Ave. corridor; it seems ADOT would rather pull their own teeth without anesthetic than exercise eminent domain (hence the planned corridors "out in the boonies") -- probably a defensive measure against the older residents who dominate the population in that part of the region and who might have more propensity for litigation if their properties were in jeopardy.  So ADOT is essentially -- at least in the long run -- planning to provide those entering the region via Wickenburg two options -- south to I-10 or east to I-17 (I have yet to hear about any proposed 3di status for the AZ 74 corridor -- but, then, this is AZ, with their long and bizarre history regarding 3di's!). 

If this is the case, then I'd reluctantly pick the AZ 74 corridor, which would be closer to Phoenix than the others.

[MantyMadTown]

^^^^^^^^^^
From the various plans I've seen, ADOT has in essence abandoned any plans for a US 60-based freeway SE of the AZ 74 junction, electing instead for plans for a freeway more or less along 74 over to I-17 not too far from the present NE end of Loop 303.  Apparently that was done in part in response to the dense development along the 60/Grand Ave. corridor; it seems ADOT would rather pull their own teeth without anesthetic than exercise eminent domain (hence the planned corridors "out in the boonies") -- probably a defensive measure against the older residents who dominate the population in that part of the region and who might have more propensity for litigation if their properties were in jeopardy.  So ADOT is essentially -- at least in the long run -- planning to provide those entering the region via Wickenburg two options -- south to I-10 or east to I-17 (I have yet to hear about any proposed 3di status for the AZ 74 corridor -- but, then, this is AZ, with their long and bizarre history regarding 3di's!).

I was hoping for a bypass along AZ 85 and I-8. That really sucks.

[Bobby5280]

From the various plans I've seen, ADOT has in essence abandoned any plans for a US 60-based freeway SE of the AZ 74 junction, electing instead for plans for a freeway more or less along 74 over to I-17 not too far from the present NE end of Loop 303.  Apparently that was done in part in response to the dense development along the 60/Grand Ave. corridor; it seems ADOT would rather pull their own teeth without anesthetic than exercise eminent domain (hence the planned corridors "out in the boonies") -- probably a defensive measure against the older residents who dominate the population in that part of the region and who might have more propensity for litigation if their properties were in jeopardy.  So ADOT is essentially -- at least in the long run -- planning to provide those entering the region via Wickenburg two options -- south to I-10 or east to I-17 (I have yet to hear about any proposed 3di status for the AZ 74 corridor -- but, then, this is AZ, with their long and bizarre history regarding 3di's!).

There is currently not much development outside the AZ-303 loop. I certainly wouldn't attempt to plow an I-11 corridor down Grand Ave to a point like the AZ-101 loop. Outside AZ-303 is still do-able.

The routes that go way the f*** around the Phoenix metro add lots of extra miles to an I-11 drive between Las Vegas and Phoenix. The planners have to realize that will be by far the primary function of that route. The plans they're drawing up show entirely different priorities, some of which are pure pork (like the parallel route clear down to Nogales). At least one or more of the proposed routes is fraught with political controversy and will likely have tribal leadership doing their best to block it. It's as if those who are drawing up the plans are trying to bundle in every freaking potential outer loop highway concept possible for Phoenix and Tucson into this effort. The main thing that needs to be built is the direct Las Vegas to Phoenix element. All the rest of it is mostly fluff.

[sparker]

^^^^^^^^
The term currently is the key here; metro Phoenix has long been the playground of developers; the chances are that most of the land surrounding US 60 is not only privately owned but slated for development in short order.  My guess is (a) that I-11 will indeed head down the Hassayampa corridor to I-10 -- but will either (a) shift to a AZ 85 alignment down to Gila Bend (the most logical as well as economical choice) or (b), as has been recently discussed, cut over along the AZ 30 corridor until a few miles east of AZ 85, then head SE toward Maricopa and Casa Grande.  IMO the cost of taking it any further SE than that will truncate those plans before any actual ROW purchase, much less construction, takes place; I don't see the corridor heading past Casa Grande in any instance -- and hopefully, it'll just shoot down AZ 85 to I-8 instead -- which will in essence kill 2 birds with 1 stone -- finally provide a nonstop Phoenix-San Diego corridor, and provide the same as a bypass alternative to I-10 around PHX.  Given all that's occurred in the region in the last few years, I don't see an Interstate-grade facility paralleling US 60 down to 303 -- but it sure would be nice to have been a fly on the wall when the decision not to take I-11 directly into Phoenix (or Phoenix adjacent!) was reached, just to see what rationales were used to justify such a move.   

[Bobby5280]

I don't see the corridor heading past Casa Grande in any instance -- and hopefully, it'll just shoot down AZ 85 to I-8 instead -- which will in essence kill 2 birds with 1 stone -- finally provide a nonstop Phoenix-San Diego corridor, and provide the same as a bypass alternative to I-10 around PHX.

That's NOT a non-stop corridor to Phoenix. Not when it makes I-11 only a bypass of Phoenix that stays 20 freaking miles West of the metro. That would make it a Vegas to Gila Bend corridor. Shifting the road South off US-60 at the AZ-74 intersection makes a big non-freeway gap for people actually driving between Las Vegas and Phoenix. Those motorists will have even more stop lights to endure outside the 303 loop, if development is indeed allowed to hug up close to the existing US-60 lanes.

I guarantee that stretch of US-60 between AZ-74 and the 303 loop will become a cluster**** of traffic if I-11 is built toward Phoenix but routed way the hell around it. It will be just as bad as US-60 inside the loops.

As for these developers and their porky needs, if they want a future freeway routed out there 20 miles on the other side of the mountains from Phoenix maybe they need to pony up some of their own money for the ROW. Put down some frontage roads and a big median. That can be their Field of Dreams. Let them put some skin i the game and see if the development comes.

[sparker]

^^^^^^^^^
If configured as a PPP (it's AZ, so I wouldn't put it past them), it's possible that some of the $$ for Hassayampa could and would come from developers looking to locate housing and commercial facilities along that corridor.  Yeah, it's not the most direct route into Phoenix -- but if something along AZ 74 is built (which in all likelihood would intersect Loop 303 near its NE end rather than be a direct route to I-17), that might be the best that one could hope for.  Frankly, I think the developers wouldn't give a flying fuck if US 60/Grand Ave. gets congested; they'd probably view such congestion as an indicator that the businesses they've plopped down along the boulevard are doing well! 

And when referring to AZ 85 as a "nonstop route", that wasn't in reference to traffic coming in from Vegas, which would have already turned off onto EB I-10 by that time if heading into Phoenix proper.  I was talking about using a full-freeway connection along AZ 85 between I-10 and I-8 (if that actually becomes part of I-11, that would be icing on the cake, as far as I'm concerned!) as a nonstop connector between Phoenix and San Diego -- or, alternately, as a Phoenix bypass for I-10 using I-8 between Gila Bend and Casa Grande. 

Any extension of I-11 on new alignment southeast of Buckeye is simply for the sake of Maricopa-area developers; and any further extension past Casa Grande is simply ludicrous.

[Roadwarriors79]

I-11 existing south of Casa Grande only makes sense if ADOT wants a single route number for the CANAMEX corridor within the state of Arizona. If ADOT plans on replacing (or cosigning) I-19 with I-11, and cosigning I-10 and I-11 from Tucson to the Casa Grande area, fine. Any new alignment south of Casa Grande will probably be fought tooth and nail. I would prefer they upgrade I-8 and AZ 85 and just worry about a new connection from Wickenburg to I-10 in the Buckeye/Tonopah area.

[FightingIrish]

On the surface, I-11 in Arizona shouldn't be too difficult, provided they don't over-complicate it

1. Upgrade US 93 to Interstate standards, from Nevada down south. They're doing good so far.

2. Sort out the Kingman bypass.

3. Build the Hassyampa corridor south to I-10. Bypass Wickenburg.

4. Build up AZ 85 between I-10 and I-8. That will be I-11.

5. I-11 ends at I-8.

6. Done.

In return, Arizona gets...

1. A much cheaper, yet very effective direct Interstate connection between the Phoenix area and Las Vegas.

2. A legitimate southern bypass of Phoenix, via I-8/11. Perfect for Canamex traffic.

3. None of that ridiculous fairy tale pork adventure about doubling freeways all the way down to the border. That's just crazy talk.

4. A more direct connector from Phoenix (via I-10, etc.) to San Diego, via the I-11/AZ 85 freeway through Buckeye.

5. Very few houses and buildings will be sacrificed.

So, who cares if I-11 doesn't roll directly into Downtown Phoenix? It doesn't have to. I-10 to I-11 from Downtown and the west still works.

What about the northwestern suburban residents? They can still hop on to I-11 via the US 60 expressway before or just past Wickenburg. That's the most logical option. Because, converting US 60 to an Interstate highway from Wickenburg to AZ 303 will be very tricky (never mind trying to do that IN Wickenburg). Meanwhile, turning Grand Ave. into I-11 between AZ 303 and AZ 101 is asinine.

Again, this is 2019. No shame in I-11 skirting town and bypassing through the 'burbs. This ain't the 60s. Many of the people live in the suburbs, and there's far more flexibility with land out there to build freeways, if need be.

[MantyMadTown]

This sounds like a pretty logical solution. Much more practical than upgrading US 60 to Loop 303 or 101 and much better than building the entire Hassayampa Freeway as a redundant bypass of I-10 and I-8. There's no shame in having I-11 end outside Phoenix because it still serves the Phoenix metro via I-10.

Personally I like the US 60 to 303 idea better but if that's not practical this will have to do for me.

[thspfc]

What are the benefits of extending it to I-8 versus having it end at I-10? I just don't think it really needs to be an Interstate corridor, unless the traffic counts on AZ-85 are really high.

[sprjus4]

What are the benefits of extending it to I-8 versus having it end at I-10? I just don't think it really needs to be an Interstate corridor, unless the traffic counts on AZ-85 are really high.

The AADT is between 10,000 and 20,000 depending on where you are, per ADOT - https://www.azdot.gov/docs/default-source/planning/2017-aadt-state-routes.pdf?sfvrsn=8

AZ-85 acts a bypass of the Phoenix area, and traffic coming down I-11 could just continue all the way to I-8, then head eastward on I-10, as opposed to having to join I-10 then travel through the heart of Phoenix.

AZ-85 is mostly limited-access as is, and is designed for interchanges. It wouldn't be an expensive upgrade project.

[Bobby5280]

So, who cares if I-11 doesn't roll directly into Downtown Phoenix? It doesn't have to. I-10 to I-11 from Downtown and the west still works.

I never said I-11 should run all the way to Downtown Phoenix. Run it to AZ-303 and then down South along that route to I-10. That's the path most of the vehicles driving from Las Vegas to Phoenix are going to take. Just building I-11 to AZ-303 would be far less expensive than all the strange extra stuff various parties are drawing on maps. Doing any freeway upgrades along US-60 inside AZ-303 is impossible. Outside the AZ-303 loop is do-able.

Currently there is plenty of space along US-60 from the AZ-303 loop Northwest for freeway conversion. Partial frontage roads are built parallel to to US-60 in most of the spots that have development up to the AZ-74 intersection. The situation along US-60 doesn't really get tight until the road gets within the Southern outskirts of Wickenburg.

[sparker]

So, who cares if I-11 doesn't roll directly into Downtown Phoenix? It doesn't have to. I-10 to I-11 from Downtown and the west still works.

I never said I-11 should run all the way to Downtown Phoenix. Run it to AZ-303 and then down South along that route to I-10. That's the path most of the vehicles driving from Las Vegas to Phoenix are going to take. Just building I-11 to AZ-303 would be far less expensive than all the strange extra stuff various parties are drawing on maps. Doing any freeway upgrades along US-60 inside AZ-303 is impossible. Outside the AZ-303 loop is do-able.

Currently there is plenty of space along US-60 from the AZ-303 loop Northwest for freeway conversion. Partial frontage roads are built parallel to to US-60 in most of the spots that have development up to the AZ-74 intersection. The situation along US-60 doesn't really get tight until the road gets within the Southern outskirts of Wickenburg.

What might be a good exercise for an amateur sleuth is to (a) determine the ownership of the adjoining properties within a mile of US 60 and/or the parallel BNSF tracks and subsequently (b) determine if ADOT ever explored the idea of taking the I-11 corridor down or closely paralleling that facility at least to the 303 alignment.  As was stated earlier, ADOT seems to avoid the eminent domain process wherever possible (though I'm quite certain that was waived when the I-10 downtown alignment was selected) preferring to simply purchase outlying properties well before plans for development are forthcoming.  Even though there seems to be enough open land, particularly on the NE side of US 60, to push a freeway alignment through without taking much in the way of existing structures, it may be possible that whoever actually owns that land has managed, through whatever means available, to render it "off-limits" to public use, including transportation corridors.  There's a reason out there regarding why there's no planned corridor along 60 -- and likely that reason has its roots in localized politics -- instead there's two sides of a virtual square (the Hassayampa potential I-11 alignment and the proposed facility along AZ 74) shunting traffic away from the existing route.   Also, most of the land that could conceivably be used for a 60-centered corridor is within the incorporated city of Surprise rather than on unincorporated county territory; perhaps that city is the entity putting the kibosh on a potential freeway, instead preferring to advance their own developmental plans for their jurisdiction.  In short, there are a sizeable number of players that in all likelihood have long put their two cents' worth into any discussion, with the ensuing result being the plans as they are today.   

[Bobby5280]

Even though there seems to be enough open land, particularly on the NE side of US 60, to push a freeway alignment through without taking much in the way of existing structures, it may be possible that whoever actually owns that land has managed, through whatever means available, to render it "off-limits" to public use, including transportation corridors.  There's a reason out there regarding why there's no planned corridor along 60 -- and likely that reason has its roots in localized politics -- instead there's two sides of a virtual square (the Hassayampa potential I-11 alignment and the proposed facility along AZ 74) shunting traffic away from the existing route.

The land within the US-60 ROW is not private property. If ADOT can fit a freeway inside that existing ROW and not take any property adjacent to it then there's not much anyone else living or doing business nearby can say about it.

Make no mistake, if I-11 is routed way the hell around Phoenix (either to the North via AZ-74 or out West past Barry Goldwater Peak) the bulk of Phoenix-Vegas traffic is still going to take the shortest, most direct route available. And in this case that is US-60. As the Vegas area continues to grow rapidly and the Phoenix area grows the traffic counts on US-60 is going grow right along with it. If someone is going to drive from Las Vegas to Phoenix he is not going to drive 50 freaking miles out of the way to get there. But that's what that I-11 routing way the hell out past Buckeye would expect to do.

The AZ-85 corridor between Buckeye and Gila Bend has been improved a bit. But it's still not a full blown Interstate quality freeway because there's not nearly enough traffic on it to justify the expense. It's too far outside Phoenix to function as an I-10 relief route for long distance traffic. That's one of the reasons why the AZ-202 extension is necessary.

I think if I-11 is built way out west of Phoenix, even farther west than AZ-85, the traffic counts on that section South of Wickenburg aren't going to be for squat. Most of the traffic will leave I-11 and get on US-60 to go the rest of the way into Phoenix.

[sprjus4]

I decided to draw out the exact "preferred alignment" on Google My Maps, and from what I got, driving on the proposed I-11 then connecting to I-10 to head into Phoenix was 88 miles, while the existing route is 74 miles - a 14 mile difference.

Google Maps says the existing route takes 1 hour 12 minutes, whereas at an average of 74 MPH on an I-11 to I-10 route (most of the route would be 75 MPH), it would take 1 hour 11 minutes on I-11 to I-10.

So it likely would be used as a route into Phoenix.

I do agree though, US-60 should just be upgraded to Phoenix instead of this whole out of the way alignment. But it will probably get a lot more traffic north of I-10 rather than south of I-10, that's for sure.

[sparker]

^^^^^^^^^^
Giving the benefit of the doubt to posters preferring a I-11 alignment along US 60 -- at least as far as Loop 303 -- I took another look via GE/GSV with an eye toward simply upgrading the existing ROW.  And I agree that it could be done -- but at a not insignificant price!  First of all, the presence of the parallel BNSF tracks means that much of the route, at least SE of Wittman, would need to be elevated or sunk in order to clear the RR crossings of intersecting roadways.  Tight construction with the freeway on a berm and close-in diamond ramps might be feasible in some instances; a TX-style system of frontage roads and J-turns might be one of the options.  Of course, if interchanges could be limited to only a few major intersecting arterials, then the remainder could simply be bridged over the combined freeway/RR ROW.  But in any case the interchange with Loop 303 would likely have to be located away from the current folded diamond; there's just not sufficient room within the current layout to install anything but the tightest of turbines; more likely is an interchange just NE of the current one (again, to minimize taking of improved properties). 

Disclaimer:  I'm basing my observations on what I've seen on other routes closely paralleling RR lines, such as much of CA 99 in the San Joaquin Valley and even I-10 out in the Coachella desert.  It's feasible, but with considerable expense regarding structures.  And I'm sure the concept of minimal interchanges wouldn't go over particularly well with the regional population dominated by retirees and their planned communities; US 60 passes through a much denser population base than, say, CA 99 from Bakersfield to Tulare -- but there are still interchanges every 2 miles or less.  But both Bobby and sprjus are likely correct in their assumptions that if I-11 were located away from that corridor that much of Phoenix-bound traffic would simply exit somewhere around Wickenburg and use the existing route for their final leg.  But it's also likely that ADOT and the local MPO don't consider that to be a particularly compelling reason for marching I-11 straight down the existing corridor -- they're probably employing a calculus that includes the cost of construction of such a route versus a new-terrain facility through unimproved lands, what the localized political powers that be want to see (which probably incorporates public opinion from the affected suburbs), and elements of the regional "master plan" -- generally a mixture of pipedream and projection.  To most DOT's, it's rarely a matter of direct/indirect -- but rather what they calculate they can actually get built without roadblocks.  They'll let long-distance traffic venture a bit out of the way rather than piss off voters who live in their region; figuring that since it's already around 285 miles to Vegas, then 300-305 miles of traversable roadway isn't too much of an imposition -- and that anyone who demurs can simply exit I-11, get on US 60, and be done with it.  It's all a series of trade-offs -- and most DOT's and even MPO's won't sacrifice the doable for a shot at the ideal!

[NE2]

Put the tracks in the median. Duh.

[sprjus4]

Put the tracks in the median. Duh.

I was thinking of a similar concept, similar to how VA-164 and I-664 here in Hampton Roads are setup. The only problem is cost - you not only have to build highway, but also re-route miles of tracks. It may well be cheaper to do what CA-99 has, with tighter ramps with retaining wall.

But obviously the cheapest option would be how they have it proposed. Maybe they could also widen I-10 from the I-11 junction into Phoenix from 4 to 6 lanes if traffic demands warranted it. Upgrading US-60 would be more direct, but a bit of a challenge. The I-11 rural alignment sticks to relatively open fields, and connects to I-10 which already makes the trek straight to Downtown Phoenix. It's only 10 miles additional, and there wouldn't be any time savings sticking to the existing routing. I-11 to I-10 would end up being a few minutes quicker either way, factoring in a continuous 75 MPH speed limit.

[FightingIrish]

^^^^^^^^^^
Giving the benefit of the doubt to posters preferring a I-11 alignment along US 60 -- at least as far as Loop 303 -- I took another look via GE/GSV with an eye toward simply upgrading the existing ROW.  And I agree that it could be done -- but at a not insignificant price!  First of all, the presence of the parallel BNSF tracks means that much of the route, at least SE of Wittman, would need to be elevated or sunk in order to clear the RR crossings of intersecting roadways.  Tight construction with the freeway on a berm and close-in diamond ramps might be feasible in some instances; a TX-style system of frontage roads and J-turns might be one of the options.  Of course, if interchanges could be limited to only a few major intersecting arterials, then the remainder could simply be bridged over the combined freeway/RR ROW.  But in any case the interchange with Loop 303 would likely have to be located away from the current folded diamond; there's just not sufficient room within the current layout to install anything but the tightest of turbines; more likely is an interchange just NE of the current one (again, to minimize taking of improved properties). 

Disclaimer:  I'm basing my observations on what I've seen on other routes closely paralleling RR lines, such as much of CA 99 in the San Joaquin Valley and even I-10 out in the Coachella desert.  It's feasible, but with considerable expense regarding structures.  And I'm sure the concept of minimal interchanges wouldn't go over particularly well with the regional population dominated by retirees and their planned communities; US 60 passes through a much denser population base than, say, CA 99 from Bakersfield to Tulare -- but there are still interchanges every 2 miles or less.  But both Bobby and sprjus are likely correct in their assumptions that if I-11 were located away from that corridor that much of Phoenix-bound traffic would simply exit somewhere around Wickenburg and use the existing route for their final leg.  But it's also likely that ADOT and the local MPO don't consider that to be a particularly compelling reason for marching I-11 straight down the existing corridor -- they're probably employing a calculus that includes the cost of construction of such a route versus a new-terrain facility through unimproved lands, what the localized political powers that be want to see (which probably incorporates public opinion from the affected suburbs), and elements of the regional "master plan" -- generally a mixture of pipedream and projection.  To most DOT's, it's rarely a matter of direct/indirect -- but rather what they calculate they can actually get built without roadblocks.  They'll let long-distance traffic venture a bit out of the way rather than piss off voters who live in their region; figuring that since it's already around 285 miles to Vegas, then 300-305 miles of traversable roadway isn't too much of an imposition -- and that anyone who demurs can simply exit I-11, get on US 60, and be done with it.  It's all a series of trade-offs -- and most DOT's and even MPO's won't sacrifice the doable for a shot at the ideal!

I noticed the same thing with US 60 down to AZ 303. That's a pretty tough fit. And replacing a major street like that might rub a few locals the wrong way.  Wickenburg is going to be really tough.

Aside from widening US 93 in parts, Arizona is really taking their time with I-11. Especially considering all the ridiculous plans they have for it (Nogales). Perhaps they should just keep it as simple as possible for now, and at least build it to I-10. The Hassyampa corridor is easy - open, unimproved land.

Oh, and figure out the Kingman interchange.

[sparker]

^^^^^^^^
I was under the impression that I-11 was going to be looped around the west side of Kingman, intersecting I-40 about a mile west of the current 93/40 junction -- although adding a couple of miles, pretty doable in regards to both topography and property acquisition. 

[skluth]

Put the tracks in the median. Duh.

I was thinking of a similar concept, similar to how VA-164 and I-664 here in Hampton Roads are setup. The only problem is cost - you not only have to build highway, but also re-route miles of tracks. It may well be cheaper to do what CA-99 has, with tighter ramps with retaining wall.

The difference is the railroad in Virginia was built after the freeways. Both freeway medians were originally planned quite wide from the beginning to accommodate the future railroad. It was strange to see bridges over empty rail underpasses during my time there. (The railroad was built not long after I left.) I'm not sure the same method would work for a preexisting railroad. The CA-99 construction model may be more useful.

[Avalanchez71]

From the various plans I've seen, ADOT has in essence abandoned any plans for a US 60-based freeway SE of the AZ 74 junction, electing instead for plans for a freeway more or less along 74 over to I-17 not too far from the present NE end of Loop 303.  Apparently that was done in part in response to the dense development along the 60/Grand Ave. corridor; it seems ADOT would rather pull their own teeth without anesthetic than exercise eminent domain (hence the planned corridors "out in the boonies") -- probably a defensive measure against the older residents who dominate the population in that part of the region and who might have more propensity for litigation if their properties were in jeopardy.  So ADOT is essentially -- at least in the long run -- planning to provide those entering the region via Wickenburg two options -- south to I-10 or east to I-17 (I have yet to hear about any proposed 3di status for the AZ 74 corridor -- but, then, this is AZ, with their long and bizarre history regarding 3di's!).

There is currently not much development outside the AZ-303 loop. I certainly wouldn't attempt to plow an I-11 corridor down Grand Ave to a point like the AZ-101 loop. Outside AZ-303 is still do-able.

The routes that go way the f*** around the Phoenix metro add lots of extra miles to an I-11 drive between Las Vegas and Phoenix. The planners have to realize that will be by far the primary function of that route. The plans they're drawing up show entirely different priorities, some of which are pure pork (like the parallel route clear down to Nogales). At least one or more of the proposed routes is fraught with political controversy and will likely have tribal leadership doing their best to block it. It's as if those who are drawing up the plans are trying to bundle in every freaking potential outer loop highway concept possible for Phoenix and Tucson into this effort. The main thing that needs to be built is the direct Las Vegas to Phoenix element. All the rest of it is mostly fluff.

The entirety of I-11 is pure pork.  US 93 is sufficient.

[thspfc]

From the various plans I've seen, ADOT has in essence abandoned any plans for a US 60-based freeway SE of the AZ 74 junction, electing instead for plans for a freeway more or less along 74 over to I-17 not too far from the present NE end of Loop 303.  Apparently that was done in part in response to the dense development along the 60/Grand Ave. corridor; it seems ADOT would rather pull their own teeth without anesthetic than exercise eminent domain (hence the planned corridors "out in the boonies") -- probably a defensive measure against the older residents who dominate the population in that part of the region and who might have more propensity for litigation if their properties were in jeopardy.  So ADOT is essentially -- at least in the long run -- planning to provide those entering the region via Wickenburg two options -- south to I-10 or east to I-17 (I have yet to hear about any proposed 3di status for the AZ 74 corridor -- but, then, this is AZ, with their long and bizarre history regarding 3di's!).

There is currently not much development outside the AZ-303 loop. I certainly wouldn't attempt to plow an I-11 corridor down Grand Ave to a point like the AZ-101 loop. Outside AZ-303 is still do-able.

The routes that go way the f*** around the Phoenix metro add lots of extra miles to an I-11 drive between Las Vegas and Phoenix. The planners have to realize that will be by far the primary function of that route. The plans they're drawing up show entirely different priorities, some of which are pure pork (like the parallel route clear down to Nogales). At least one or more of the proposed routes is fraught with political controversy and will likely have tribal leadership doing their best to block it. It's as if those who are drawing up the plans are trying to bundle in every freaking potential outer loop highway concept possible for Phoenix and Tucson into this effort. The main thing that needs to be built is the direct Las Vegas to Phoenix element. All the rest of it is mostly fluff.

The entirety of I-11 is pure pork.  US 93 is sufficient.

And in what way does this contribute to the thread?

[sparker]

The entirety of I-11 is pure pork.  US 93 is sufficient.

The I-11 corridor was brought to light back in '97 with the Roads & Bridges article about the locations where new Interstates would be appropriate, taking into account not only the cities served but the commercial usage of the extant corridors.  It took 15 years until the Interstate designation after that -- and Las Vegas has grown since then, as has greater Phoenix.  Despite local efforts to satisfy every developer whim, the long-established rationale for the corridor hasn't changed; trucks continue to plow down the 2-lane sections of US 93.  This is one of those corridors with ample justification; its extension NW of Vegas a bit less so (more of a NV thing!).  But contrary to the oft-stated opinions of some, not all new Interstate trunk corridors are completely porcine!

[Zonie]

From the various plans I've seen, ADOT has in essence abandoned any plans for a US 60-based freeway SE of the AZ 74 junction, electing instead for plans for a freeway more or less along 74 over to I-17 not too far from the present NE end of Loop 303.  Apparently that was done in part in response to the dense development along the 60/Grand Ave. corridor; it seems ADOT would rather pull their own teeth without anesthetic than exercise eminent domain (hence the planned corridors "out in the boonies") -- probably a defensive measure against the older residents who dominate the population in that part of the region and who might have more propensity for litigation if their properties were in jeopardy.  So ADOT is essentially -- at least in the long run -- planning to provide those entering the region via Wickenburg two options -- south to I-10 or east to I-17 (I have yet to hear about any proposed 3di status for the AZ 74 corridor -- but, then, this is AZ, with their long and bizarre history regarding 3di's!).

There is currently not much development outside the AZ-303 loop. I certainly wouldn't attempt to plow an I-11 corridor down Grand Ave to a point like the AZ-101 loop. Outside AZ-303 is still do-able.

The routes that go way the f*** around the Phoenix metro add lots of extra miles to an I-11 drive between Las Vegas and Phoenix. The planners have to realize that will be by far the primary function of that route. The plans they're drawing up show entirely different priorities, some of which are pure pork (like the parallel route clear down to Nogales). At least one or more of the proposed routes is fraught with political controversy and will likely have tribal leadership doing their best to block it. It's as if those who are drawing up the plans are trying to bundle in every freaking potential outer loop highway concept possible for Phoenix and Tucson into this effort. The main thing that needs to be built is the direct Las Vegas to Phoenix element. All the rest of it is mostly fluff.

The entirety of I-11 is pure pork.  US 93 is sufficient.

I'll remember that the next time I'm stuck behind six RVs on US 93.