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Northern Virginia HOT Lanes

Started by mtantillo, August 14, 2012, 11:02:35 PM

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sprjus4

Quote from: Beltway on February 02, 2019, 06:22:21 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 02, 2019, 02:48:29 PM
Look, I'm not against the HO/T lanes, and I really don't have any issues with I-495. It's a
[...... snip ...... ]

Look, you've repeated essentially the same thing dozens of times.  People are getting tired of the amount of bandwidth this argument is taking up.  How about discussing a new topic somewhere on this board?
It's both of us, not just "me", going back and fourth. Yes, I'm fine with discussing a new topic.


Jmiles32

While this article focuses mostly about Maryland's plans for potential express lanes on I-495 and I-270, it also provides some more details on the (hopefully temporary) northern terminus of the I-495 HOT Lanes extension:
https://wtop.com/maryland/2019/02/tolls-now-md-s-first-option-for-congestion-management-on-i-270-capital-beltway/slide/1/
QuoteVirginia is planning to extend its tolled Express Lanes to the Legion Bridge to meet up with future Maryland lanes, but expects the extension beyond the Dulles Toll Road could open before completion of any Legion Bridge improvements or the opening of the first Beltway toll lanes in Maryland.

In that case, the Virginia project run by 495 Express Lanes operator Transurban would probably include a single lane allowing an exit or entrance to or from the George Washington Parkway while the other of their two lanes ends just before the bridge, VDOT Megaprojects Director Susan Shaw told Fairfax County supervisors this week.

Aspiring Transportation Planner at Virginia Tech. Go Hokies!

sprjus4

Quote from: Jmiles32 on February 16, 2019, 07:44:40 PM
While this article focuses mostly about Maryland's plans for potential express lanes on I-495 and I-270, it also provides some more details on the (hopefully temporary) northern terminus of the I-495 HOT Lanes extension:
https://wtop.com/maryland/2019/02/tolls-now-md-s-first-option-for-congestion-management-on-i-270-capital-beltway/slide/1/
QuoteVirginia is planning to extend its tolled Express Lanes to the Legion Bridge to meet up with future Maryland lanes, but expects the extension beyond the Dulles Toll Road could open before completion of any Legion Bridge improvements or the opening of the first Beltway toll lanes in Maryland.

In that case, the Virginia project run by 495 Express Lanes operator Transurban would probably include a single lane allowing an exit or entrance to or from the George Washington Parkway while the other of their two lanes ends just before the bridge, VDOT Megaprojects Director Susan Shaw told Fairfax County supervisors this week.
I assume it would be built to accommodate a future extension (I.E. an extremely wide shoulder to accommodate that second lane eventually, ramp stubs, etc.).

Let's discuss the Maryland proposals as well from the article.

The proposals for I-495 -

  • A single toll lane each way on I-495 that would provide free or discounted use for carpools.
  • Two toll lanes each way on I-495. The toll lanes would charge all users, including carpools.
  • Two toll lanes each way on I-495 that would provide free or discounted use to carpools.
The proposals for I-270 -

  • A single toll lane each way I-270 that would provide free or discounted use for carpools. The I-270 lane would be the current HOV lane.
  • One toll lane each way on I-270 next to the existing HOV lane, which would remain. The toll lanes would charge all users, including carpools.
  • Two toll lanes each way on I-270 that would provide free or discounted use to carpools. The existing I-270 HOV lane would be eliminated.
  • Two toll lanes each way on I-270 while maintaining the current I-270 HOV lane. The toll lanes would charge all users, including carpools.
  • A two-lane set of reversible toll lanes on I-270 that would go southbound in the morning and northbound in the afternoon. The lanes would provide free or discounted use to carpools. The current I-270 HOV lane would be eliminated.
  • Two reversible toll lanes on I-270 that would charge tolls to all users. The current I-270 HOV lane would remain.


For I-495 in Maryland, the best option IMO to remain consistent with Virginia's proposal would be "Two toll lanes each way on I-495 that would provide free or discounted use to carpools."
For I-270, the best option is "Two toll lanes each way on I-270 that would provide free or discounted use to carpools. The existing I-270 HOV lane would be eliminated."

My only issue with the I-270 proposal is that I believe the C/D lanes would be eliminated. If anything, that's decreasing the capacity on the highway, and adding further issues. It should be 2 C/D, 3 GP + 2 HO/T in each direction. That would provide the best capacity, over the proposed 5 GP + 2 HO/T in each direction. Same amount of lanes, but the former splits local and thru traffic, the latter (proposed) mixes local and thru traffic.

Jmiles32

Quote from: sprjus4 on February 16, 2019, 08:41:21 PM
For I-495 in Maryland, the best option IMO to remain consistent with Virginia's proposal would be "Two toll lanes each way on I-495 that would provide free or discounted use to carpools."
For I-270, the best option is "Two toll lanes each way on I-270 that would provide free or discounted use to carpools. The existing I-270 HOV lane would be eliminated."

My only issue with the I-270 proposal is that I believe the C/D lanes would be eliminated. If anything, that's decreasing the capacity on the highway, and adding further issues. It should be 2 C/D, 3 GP + 2 HO/T in each direction. That would provide the best capacity, over the proposed 5 GP + 2 HO/T in each direction. Same amount of lanes, but the former splits local and thru traffic, the latter (proposed) mixes local and thru traffic.

Agreed. This I-270 proposal in particular could also likely be done within most of the highway's existing footprint. For me, the question is points of access. Will these "express toll lanes" have separate entrance and exit points from the general lanes such as the I-495 HOT lanes? Or will they be more similar to the entrance and exit points on the I-85 HOT lanes near Atlanta? Or a mix of both like the reversible ones on I-95? I personally prefer the I-495 model, but I realize with that comes much greater cost and disturbance.
Aspiring Transportation Planner at Virginia Tech. Go Hokies!

sprjus4

Quote from: Jmiles32 on February 16, 2019, 09:51:48 PM
Agreed. This I-270 proposal in particular could also likely be done within most of the highway's existing footprint.
It would require redoing the lanes to maintain the C/D lanes, but IMHO it's worth it. The official concept would take the existing HOV lane plus the GP lane next to it, and convert them into HO/T lanes. To make up for the lost GP lane, the barrier between the C/D lanes would be removed, and that would be converted into a lane. To maintain C/D plus 2 HO/T in each direction, you'd have to construct one new lane to the outside, and shift the location of the C/D to Thru lanes divider, and replace many of the bridges.

Then again I-495's HO/T lanes will require the same treatment, as it did in Virginia, a complete multi-billion dollar overhaul of the highway, new bridges, new interchanges, etc.

1995hoo

Heard a report on the radio that I-395 HO/T operations are supposed to begin in October. I'm glad they're waiting until the fall because of the Metrorail shutdown this summer–that'll be enough of an adjustment for people without throwing a rule change on I-395 into the mix.

One of the plans I saw called for the elimination of the slip ramp from the inner carriageway to the main line just south of the Pentagon where the reversible lanes begin. Don't know what the status of that is. Seems to me it'd make sense to walk it off but not tear it up, simply in case they might want to reopen it at some point in the next few years.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

froggie

^ From what I've read, that is due to how the operation to/from the Eads St ramps will be handled.  Both of the Eads St ramps to/from the south will be open to direct traffic to/from each direction on Eads.  They're eliminating that slip ramp so it doesn't interfere with traffic going to/coming from the Pentagon via Eads St.  It's a pretty tight weave as it is (less than 700ft).  Non-HO/T traffic will be required to exit at Eads or use the slip ramp before Route 1, and ALL traffic will be required to do the same when the HO/T lanes are pointed northward.

1995hoo

"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

AlexandriaVA

I take a small amount of pride in the fact that I saw, for the first time in-person, a car fire on 395 North at Glebe Rd. This was on Tuesday afternoon around 3:30 PM.

Still-frame of a photo I took while getting over: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D43Y5G4XoAE5uct.jpg

1995hoo



Technically, they're not ETLs because Virginia uses HO/T lanes instead. But that's not the mistake that drew VDOT's attention!

"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

sprjus4

#1335
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 20, 2019, 04:54:42 PM
Technically, they're not ETLs because Virginia uses HO/T lanes instead. But that's not the mistake that drew VDOT's attention!
A lot of information released tonight regarding the extension.

Here's a "2025" build schematic of 2 HO/T lanes in each direction and 4 GP lanes, extending from the existing and ending at the American Legion Bridge. It features direct connections to the Dulles Toll Road and George Washington Memorial Pkwy.

Perhaps even more interesting is the "2045" build schematic that shows how the HO/T lanes would tie into a widened / replaced American Legion Bridge and continued HO/T system into Maryland. Also the Dulles Toll Road interchange is massively expanded, and access the GW Memorial Pkwy to the HO/T lanes would be in both directions. The 2045 schematic shows a widened / replaced American Legion Bridge having 10 GP lanes (4 thru / 1 auxiliary in each direction), and 4 HO/T lanes (two in each direction), along with full left shoulders on the HO/T lanes, and full right shoulders on the GP lanes.

It would go from an 8-lane bridge with no shoulders to a 14-lane bridge with full left and right shoulders in total.

In both plans, the Georgetown Pike interchange is reconstructed fully with braided ramps & the overpass over I-495 is replaced with a wider and longer overpass.

1995hoo

"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Beltway

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 20, 2019, 08:17:28 PM
Here's a "2025" build schematic of 2 HO/T lanes in each direction and 4 GP lanes, extending from the existing and ending at the American Legion Bridge. It features direct connections to the Dulles Toll Road and George Washington Memorial Pkwy.
Perhaps even more interesting is the "2045" build schematic that shows how the HO/T lanes would tie into a widened / replaced American Legion Bridge and continued HO/T system into Maryland. Also the Dulles Toll Road interchange is massively expanded, and access the GW Memorial Pkwy to the HO/T lanes would be in both directions. The 2045 schematic shows a widened / replaced American Legion Bridge having 10 GP lanes (4 thru / 1 auxiliary in each direction), and 4 HO/T lanes (two in each direction), along with full left shoulders on the HO/T lanes, and full right shoulders on the GP lanes.
It would go from an 8-lane bridge with no shoulders to a 14-lane bridge with full left and right shoulders in total.
In both plans, the Georgetown Pike interchange is reconstructed fully with braided ramps & the overpass over I-495 is replaced with a wider and longer overpass.

Assuming that MSHA adopts a 4-2-2-4 cross-section to match the Virginia section.

The 2025 design would only minimally upgrade the VA-267 interchange, and the I-495 left hand offramps would remain and all the original bridges would remain.  It would tie into the existing Maryland cross-section.

The 2045 design would tie into a Maryland 4-2-2-4 cross-section and that would mean a lot more traffic on the HOT lanes north of VA-267, and the VA-267 interchange would be fully upgraded to all right hand ramps on the general purpose roadways, more direct connections to the HOT lanes, and all original I-495 bridges replaced.  Nice!

If MSHA gets their part done sooner then hopefully the 2045 VDOT plan gets done much sooner.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

1995hoo

I haven't looked at the link, so maybe it addresses this, but I wonder what they'll do if Maryland goes with ETLs instead of HO/T lanes–how do they plan to configure it for exiting the lanes if you're an HOV who doesn't want to pay Maryland, and what sort of signage would they use to clarify the different rules.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Beltway

#1339
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 20, 2019, 08:48:55 PM
I haven't looked at the link, so maybe it addresses this, but I wonder what they'll do if Maryland goes with ETLs instead of HO/T lanes–how do they plan to configure it for exiting the lanes if you're an HOV who doesn't want to pay Maryland, and what sort of signage would they use to clarify the different rules.

MSHA apparently at least has an administrative category for HOT lane installations --

http://www.mdot.maryland.gov/Office_of_Planning_and_Capital_Programming/Express_Toll_Lanes/Documents/HOV_HOT_ETL.pdf

[that was published back in 2004 but I suppose they could still use that]

Given that they do have HOV on I-270, it would probably be logical to allow them to connect between VA I-495 and I-270, which would entail HOT lanes on that segment of MD I-495.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sprjus4

#1340
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 20, 2019, 08:38:59 PM
-image-
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Hate to say it, but that's what a lot of people feel. Not everybody wants HO/T lanes. You can't just roll your eyes at something you disagree with without analyzing both sides of the story.

But at some point you can't expand any further. I support the HO/T concept on here, while I would support more GP widening & improvements first on I-95 per se

sprjus4

Quote from: Beltway on May 20, 2019, 08:44:08 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 20, 2019, 08:17:28 PM
Here's a "2025" build schematic of 2 HO/T lanes in each direction and 4 GP lanes, extending from the existing and ending at the American Legion Bridge. It features direct connections to the Dulles Toll Road and George Washington Memorial Pkwy.
Perhaps even more interesting is the "2045" build schematic that shows how the HO/T lanes would tie into a widened / replaced American Legion Bridge and continued HO/T system into Maryland. Also the Dulles Toll Road interchange is massively expanded, and access the GW Memorial Pkwy to the HO/T lanes would be in both directions. The 2045 schematic shows a widened / replaced American Legion Bridge having 10 GP lanes (4 thru / 1 auxiliary in each direction), and 4 HO/T lanes (two in each direction), along with full left shoulders on the HO/T lanes, and full right shoulders on the GP lanes.
It would go from an 8-lane bridge with no shoulders to a 14-lane bridge with full left and right shoulders in total.
In both plans, the Georgetown Pike interchange is reconstructed fully with braided ramps & the overpass over I-495 is replaced with a wider and longer overpass.

Assuming that MSHA adopts a 4-2-2-4 cross-section to match the Virginia section.

The 2025 design would only minimally upgrade the VA-267 interchange, and the I-495 left hand offramps would remain and all the original bridges would remain.  It would tie into the existing Maryland cross-section.

The 2045 design would tie into a Maryland 4-2-2-4 cross-section and that would mean a lot more traffic on the HOT lanes north of VA-267, and the VA-267 interchange would be fully upgraded to all right hand ramps on the general purpose roadways, more direct connections to the HOT lanes, and all original I-495 bridges replaced.  Nice!

If MSHA gets their part done sooner then hopefully the 2045 VDOT plan gets done much sooner.
My question is how much is this all going to cost? At least $1 billion for VDOT's "2025" build probably.

But I suppose the tolls and Transurban constructing it will leave all the cost and burden on them, not taxpayers and regular dollars.

1995hoo

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 20, 2019, 09:07:30 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 20, 2019, 08:38:59 PM


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Hate to say it, but that's what a lot of people feel. Not everybody wants HO/T lanes. You can't just roll your eyes at something you disagree with without analyzing both sides of the story.

But at some point you can't expand any further. I support the HO/T concept on here, while I would support more GP widening & improvements first on I-95 per se

My reaction is more because of her ignorance. People assume they're massively underused because they aren't at a standstill. But that's the whole point of the variable tolling. If they're congested, they aren't working properly–but people are so used to congestion, they think everything should be jammed.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

sprjus4

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 20, 2019, 09:11:18 PM
My reaction is more because of her ignorance. People assume they're massively underused because they aren't at a standstill. But that's the whole point of the variable tolling. If they're congested, they aren't working properly–but people are so used to congestion, they think everything should be jammed.
That makes more sense I suppose. I disagree with HO/T lanes in some instances, and I know people who outright hate them, but it's still important to realize they do work for the traffic that use them, and it has -some- benefit to GP traffic.

I've always found the I-495 Express Lanes to be better than the I-95 ones IMO. More direct exits, HO/T lanes going both directions not bi-directional, etc.

I just wish they used that concept on I-95, not the bi-directional type. -More- traffic flows in a certain direction depending on the time of the day on I-95, but there's a lot of times where backups exist in both directions, and having a setup like I-495 would be nice. Especially on Sundays heading southbound.

1995hoo

But the reversible lanes on I-95 had already been in place for over 20 years, such that rebuilding the road to have two HO/T lanes in each direction would have been hugely expensive and likely would have taken a lot longer. (The original Shirley Highway reversible lanes ended just south of Springfield at a point just south of the southern ramp to/from the Franconia—Springfield Parkway. The lanes were extended south to near Dumfries in the early 1990s, if memory serves. They ended there until the more recent conversion to HO/T, which included the further southern extension.)

I think if they had been totally new, there may have been a different configuration more like the Beltway.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

sprjus4

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 20, 2019, 09:50:22 PM
But the reversible lanes on I-95 had already been in place for over 20 years, such that rebuilding the road to have two HO/T lanes in each direction would have been hugely expensive and likely would have taken a lot longer. (The original Shirley Highway reversible lanes ended just south of Springfield at a point just south of the southern ramp to/from the Franconia—Springfield Parkway. The lanes were extended south to near Dumfries in the early 1990s, if memory serves. They ended there until the more recent conversion to HO/T, which included the further southern extension.)

I think if they had been totally new, there may have been a different configuration more like the Beltway.
I-495 was an 8-lane highway with jersey barrier & no median until it was completely torn up & every single bridge and interchange was reconstructed, the footprint was expanded and a 4-lane HO/T system was shoved in the middle. They did it there, it could've been done on I-95 too.

Beltway

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 20, 2019, 09:59:08 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 20, 2019, 09:50:22 PM
But the reversible lanes on I-95 had already been in place for over 20 years, such that rebuilding the road to have two HO/T lanes in each direction would have been hugely expensive and likely would have taken a lot longer. (The original Shirley Highway reversible lanes ended just south of Springfield at a point just south of the southern ramp to/from the Franconia—Springfield Parkway. The lanes were extended south to near Dumfries in the early 1990s, if memory serves. They ended there until the more recent conversion to HO/T, which included the further southern extension.)
I think if they had been totally new, there may have been a different configuration more like the Beltway.
I-495 was an 8-lane highway with jersey barrier & no median until it was completely torn up & every single bridge and interchange was reconstructed, the footprint was expanded and a 4-lane HO/T system was shoved in the middle. They did it there, it could've been done on I-95 too.

I-495 doesn't have the high directional split that a radial freeway like I-95 has, and they had to compromise with 6 lanes each way and not 4 separated roadways like they could have done if there was sufficient right-of-way.  It is also only 11 miles compared to the 29 miles of I-95 and I-395.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

famartin

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 20, 2019, 09:11:18 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 20, 2019, 09:07:30 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 20, 2019, 08:38:59 PM


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Hate to say it, but that's what a lot of people feel. Not everybody wants HO/T lanes. You can't just roll your eyes at something you disagree with without analyzing both sides of the story.

But at some point you can't expand any further. I support the HO/T concept on here, while I would support more GP widening & improvements first on I-95 per se

My reaction is more because of her ignorance. People assume they're massively underused because they aren't at a standstill. But that's the whole point of the variable tolling. If they're congested, they aren't working properly–but people are so used to congestion, they think everything should be jammed.

I think the issue is that they are sold as a way of relieving congestion, when really they are an escape from it. They aren't meant to save you on a daily basis, just on those rare occasions you truly have to get somewhere and time really does matter a lot.

sprjus4

Quote from: famartin on May 20, 2019, 11:54:22 PM
I think the issue is that they are sold as a way of relieving congestion, when really they are an escape from it. They aren't meant to save you on a daily basis, just on those rare occasions you truly have to get somewhere and time really does matter a lot.
That's so true though. And it seems VDOT avoids actually "fixing the congestion", but rather expects HO/T lanes to be the answer for everything. It's exactly what you said - an escape from it, and other than that - simply HOV lanes. When they launch a feasibility study / environmental assessment to widen I-95 from 6 to 8 -general purpose- lanes from VA-123 at Woodbridge to north of US-17 at Fredericksburg along with a 5th auxiliary lane in each direction between interchanges and associated interchange improvements along the corridor, I'll believe they're trying to actually get towards a real fix. And then determine how much it'll cost, and try to come up with a funding plan, and tap into the tax increase just passed which will allocate $40 million annually to I-95. Could be done 2030. And when that's finished, look at continuing to VA I-295. But I've seen nothing from them at all regarding a widening. Just spot fixes & HO/T extensions. You can argue there's no funding or it's a long way off - but at least start with an environmental assessment or a feasibility study. That's very affordable and is not "expensive".

And some on here will say they've done multi-billion dollar expansions with the "Mixing Bowl" / Springfield Interchange, the Woodrow Wilson Bridge, and the 8-lane general purpose widening down to the Occoquan River. That's great. Now let's look south of there, where the need is pressing and is getting worse every year.

froggie

Quote from: Beltway on May 20, 2019, 10:22:06 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 20, 2019, 09:59:08 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 20, 2019, 09:50:22 PM
But the reversible lanes on I-95 had already been in place for over 20 years, such that rebuilding the road to have two HO/T lanes in each direction would have been hugely expensive and likely would have taken a lot longer. (The original Shirley Highway reversible lanes ended just south of Springfield at a point just south of the southern ramp to/from the Franconia—Springfield Parkway. The lanes were extended south to near Dumfries in the early 1990s, if memory serves. They ended there until the more recent conversion to HO/T, which included the further southern extension.)
I think if they had been totally new, there may have been a different configuration more like the Beltway.
I-495 was an 8-lane highway with jersey barrier & no median until it was completely torn up & every single bridge and interchange was reconstructed, the footprint was expanded and a 4-lane HO/T system was shoved in the middle. They did it there, it could've been done on I-95 too.

I-495 doesn't have the high directional split that a radial freeway like I-95 has, and they had to compromise with 6 lanes each way and not 4 separated roadways like they could have done if there was sufficient right-of-way.  It is also only 11 miles compared to the 29 miles of I-95 and I-395.

The point on right-of-way often gets missed.  95 is pretty tight as it is between Newington and the Franconia exit.  Squeezing separate HO/T carriageways for each direction through there would, at a minimum, require *A LOT* of retaining wall and road/ramp realignment.  More likely would require shifting Backlick and Lonsdale Roads outward, requiring the requisite ROW to do so.



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