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Author Topic: Detroit - Removal of I-375  (Read 65395 times)

skluth

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #250 on: May 29, 2023, 12:10:00 PM »

It is my belief that as originally planned I-75 was supposed to run closer to the river. This would be the reason that I-375 exists like it does and it was already built to Jefferson so they put it in use. I-75 curves three times in less than two miles, the interchange with I-375 and the Gratiot connector, the interchange with I-96 and another curve just after the I-96 interchange near the Ambassador Bridge. I think the route along the river was denied and what we have today is what we ended up with. It would make sense for I-75 to go all the way down to Jefferson, curving once instead of three times.

A long time ago i suggested that they remove all of I-375 and I-75 between I-94 and I-96 . This would remove all the freeways downtown except the Lodge. I never thought it was a good idea to do that but I was wishing downtown Detroit looked more like downtown Chicago. The problem today is that Detroit's freeway system was planned and built when the city had close to 2 million people so that is how the freeway system is built, it's overkill for today's population.
Let's not confuse a city's population loss with the traffic going through the city.  As you well know, Flint and Saginaw have lost a massive % of their population the last several decades, but they sure get traffic through the area.
The cities lost population but the population just spread out pretty much. Like with Saginaw, the city had 98,000 in 1960 and Saginaw Township was a rural area, today Saginaw city has about 45,000 and Saginaw Township has about 40,000 everyone just moved further out but the population was still around. I noticed that Metro Detroit is more populated today than it was in 1950 when Detroit was at it's peak population. The inner cities should have done better at fixing the problems that the cities had, I'm not sure that Detroit has ever fully recovered from the 1967 riots I wish it would I'd love to see a city like Detroit booming again.

I've never been closer to Detroit than Ann Arbor. But I lived in St Louis for almost three decades. I think the problems of the two cities are similar but Detroit almost completely lost its white population (currently <10%) while St Louis is still fairly racially diverse (though still somewhat segregated with almost no white people living north of the Delmar Divide). Most of the Central Corridor and the east part of the South Side are fairly integrated while the North Side remains primarily black and St Louis Hills in the SW corner of the city remains mostly white. While many of the poorer whites have moved to the suburbs/exurbs as have many poorer blacks (see Ferguson), many city neighborhoods have undergone a rebirth and/or gentrified over the last forty years with people of all colors and backgrounds living along the Central Corridor and the near South Side. It was already happening in the 80's with the Central West End and Soulard, and now has spread to Lafayette Square, Midtown, DeBaliviere, Dogtown, and most recently Forest Park Southeast which has been rebranded as The Grove. In fact, the Central Corridor from Downtown to Forest Park along Highway 40 (I-64) is some of the most valuable property in the metro.

I don't know if this can happen in Detroit. I don't know if the economic base is still there. St Louis lost a lot of Fortune 500 over the years (General Dynamics and SW Bell moved, McDonnell-Douglas and Anheiser-Busch were bought out), newer businesses like Enterprise Rent-A-Car and Maritz have somewhat filled the gap and the old Anheiser-Busch Brewery is still going strong (in a continuing to gentrify neighborhood). Another comparison is Cleveland which also looked terminal but is also turning it around thanks to old anchors like the hospitals and museums around Case Western, new sports venues, the R&R Hall of Fame, and revitalized areas like The Flats. Cleveland also has several Fortune 500 companies and even pulled ADM out of Decatur, IL. The new sports venues and Corktown are good starts for Detroit but there's not much else going on.

To get back on topic, one good reason to remove I-375 is that it helps Downtown Detroit look more like Downtown Chicago. Of the current freeways only the old Congress, now the Eisenhower Expressway, was ever designed to enter the Downtown (through that iconic hole in the post office). The Kennedy/Dan Ryan is well west of Downtown and the Stephenson doesn't come close. One reason Downtown Chicago works so well is the El which radiates from downtown and moves a massive number of people; the Chicago Transit Authority moves 1.6 million people on an average weekday. Detroit only has that crap people-mover thing that never leaves downtown. Removing I-375 will also provide new housing stock. Some will bitch and moan that it'll become gentrified and drive out poorer residents. That happens but it's not like Detroit is lacking other inexpensive housing stock. The day Detroit starts worrying about too much gentrification is a sign that Detroit is coming back. That'll be a good thing.
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sprjus4

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #251 on: May 29, 2023, 12:18:48 PM »

Alfred Street is in the grid and in the right location all the way. It isn't going to serve much purpose to extend it any. The area there is where the Brewster Projects used to be. Alfred is absent between Beaubein and St. Antoine because of the former projects being in the way. Alfred's never crossed I-75 you can do that at Wilkins or Mack.

Before the Chrysler freeway was built along with the various urban renewal projects, Alfred Street was a continuous street along with the neighbooring streets.
http://gigapan.com/gigapans/147450
Yes but you don't need that many overpasses over the freeway. Wilkins and Mack work fine in that area.
The overpass already is going to exist, you are not building a new one. Besides, the image depicts very clearly a stub roadway, indicating it will extend west at some point. While it may not connect directly with Alfred, itíll certainly serve that area.
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cbeach40

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #252 on: June 08, 2023, 10:15:14 AM »

Quick question, has any new route number been officially announced for the rebuilt route? I presume an Interstate designation would obviously no longer apply.
(I'm sorry, I'd go through the thread but it's pretty long, figured someone here's been paying closer attention could probably answer faster)

Thanks!
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #253 on: June 08, 2023, 11:09:29 AM »

Not to my knowledge, but then again, I am one state to the west.
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mgk920

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #254 on: June 08, 2023, 11:22:36 AM »

'M-375'?

Mike
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froggie

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #255 on: June 08, 2023, 11:54:35 AM »

A route number is pure speculation at this point.  It's also conceivably possible that the end product will be downloaded to the city and not have a route number at all.
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Flint1979

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #256 on: June 08, 2023, 10:08:16 PM »

Quick question, has any new route number been officially announced for the rebuilt route? I presume an Interstate designation would obviously no longer apply.
(I'm sorry, I'd go through the thread but it's pretty long, figured someone here's been paying closer attention could probably answer faster)

Thanks!
Knowing MDOT they'll probably build it then turn it over to local control. There really isn't much of a reason to keep it a state highway.
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Terry Shea

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #257 on: June 08, 2023, 11:41:36 PM »

Quick question, has any new route number been officially announced for the rebuilt route? I presume an Interstate designation would obviously no longer apply.
(I'm sorry, I'd go through the thread but it's pretty long, figured someone here's been paying closer attention could probably answer faster)

Thanks!
M-666? :)
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cbeach40

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #258 on: June 09, 2023, 10:16:55 AM »

Okay, thanks everyone.
I'm working on the signs for the Ontario approaches to the border in advance of the GHIB opening and just wanted to be sure of what was going on there before devoting too much time to some ideas.
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Flint1979

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #259 on: June 09, 2023, 11:05:12 AM »

Okay, thanks everyone.
I'm working on the signs for the Ontario approaches to the border in advance of the GHIB opening and just wanted to be sure of what was going on there before devoting too much time to some ideas.
The Gordie Howe Bridge isn't going to have a route number, just like the Ambassador Bridge doesn't. It'll just have ramps leading to and from the bridge.
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #260 on: June 09, 2023, 11:18:25 AM »

If the proposed Gordie Howe International Bridge had been given a number, M-401 would have a no-brainer. Maybe the signs will say To ON 401.
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GaryV

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #261 on: June 09, 2023, 12:12:54 PM »

Okay, thanks everyone.
I'm working on the signs for the Ontario approaches to the border in advance of the GHIB opening and just wanted to be sure of what was going on there before devoting too much time to some ideas.

GHB is a long way from I-375. There wouldn't be any notice of whatever I-375 becomes from the bridge.

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zzcarp

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #262 on: June 09, 2023, 12:40:31 PM »

Okay, thanks everyone.
I'm working on the signs for the Ontario approaches to the border in advance of the GHIB opening and just wanted to be sure of what was going on there before devoting too much time to some ideas.

GHB is a long way from I-375. There wouldn't be any notice of whatever I-375 becomes from the bridge.

Since the number will be open, make the Michigan Gordie Howe approach I-375. Then resign the reconstructed I-375 section as M-401.  :poke:
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wanderer2575

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #263 on: June 09, 2023, 01:41:36 PM »

Quick question, has any new route number been officially announced for the rebuilt route? I presume an Interstate designation would obviously no longer apply.
(I'm sorry, I'd go through the thread but it's pretty long, figured someone here's been paying closer attention could probably answer faster)

Thanks!

There's discussion in the Michigan Notes thread, starting around post #1400, that it will be a trunkline but no number has been definitively announced.  MDOT's animation videos showing the flow of traffic through the proposed I-75 interchange have "M-XX" shields on the signs.

If the proposed Gordie Howe International Bridge had been given a number, M-401 would have a no-brainer. Maybe the signs will say To ON 401.

I would be very surprised.  There is no "TO ON-402" on the signs in Port Huron, and no "TO ON-17B" ever on the signs in Sault Ste. Marie.  And that's without the likes of the perennial thorn that is the Detroit International Bridge Co.  I don't doubt the DIBC would get a lawsuit going if they think anything MDOT does, even putting a route shield on a sign, promotes the use of the Gordie Howe Bridge over the Ambassador Bridge.
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cbeach40

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #264 on: June 09, 2023, 03:17:22 PM »

Okay, thanks everyone.
I'm working on the signs for the Ontario approaches to the border in advance of the GHIB opening and just wanted to be sure of what was going on there before devoting too much time to some ideas.
The Gordie Howe Bridge isn't going to have a route number, just like the Ambassador Bridge doesn't. It'll just have ramps leading to and from the bridge.

Oh I know, I am working on that project.  :D

GHB is a long way from I-375. There wouldn't be any notice of whatever I-375 becomes from the bridge.

this is true, but the existing signage at the future GHIB/Ambassador/Tunnel decision points will need to be revised for when it opens. Right now I'm just playing around with ideas for them all.
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Flint1979

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #265 on: June 09, 2023, 08:57:03 PM »

MDOT doesn't go out of their way to make a ramp have a route number. Usually when a freeway is built the old road gets turned over to local control like US-10 between Saginaw and Detroit after I-75 was built or US-16 in the entire state after I-96 was built, M-78 and M-21 lost several miles after I-69 was built, US-12 was rerouted after I-94 was built so I don't see how anyone can think that MDOT is going to be putting a route number on the ramps to the Gordie Howe Bridge.
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Flint1979

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #266 on: June 09, 2023, 09:00:28 PM »

If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
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Henry

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #267 on: June 09, 2023, 09:36:48 PM »

If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
I don't think so. I'm still for M-375 replacing I-375.
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Terry Shea

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #268 on: June 09, 2023, 09:58:36 PM »

If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits.  They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.
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GaryV

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #269 on: June 10, 2023, 07:34:47 AM »

If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits.  They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.

And thus cave to the purists who believe 696 and 275 are mislabeled as even 3di's because they don't meet their parents at both ends. And 496 and 475 aren't bypasses. /s
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Rothman

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #270 on: June 10, 2023, 09:15:23 AM »

If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits.  They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.
*citation needed*

Boulevarding I-375 is only one specific action and not motivated by any singular distaste for 3dis.
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Flint1979

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #271 on: June 10, 2023, 09:46:16 AM »

If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
I don't think so. I'm still for M-375 replacing I-375.
Why? There is no reason to make such a short state highway when other numbers are available in the area. If that's the case then it'll be an unsigned highway. Just because it was I-375 doesn't mean that MDOT has to go make it M-375.
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Flint1979

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #272 on: June 10, 2023, 09:50:18 AM »

If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits.  They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.
MDOT feels as they are complete building any additional Interstate highways and won't apply to make anything an Interstate in the future. They can build highways to Interstate standards but they don't have to be Interstate highways. They probably just never applied to make M-6 an Interstate and really it's fine the way it is. They won't be removing anymore of the I-x75's except for I-375, the I-x96's will be staying put too. MDOT just doesn't see the need to make everything into an Interstate.
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Flint1979

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #273 on: June 10, 2023, 09:51:43 AM »

If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits.  They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.

And thus cave to the purists who believe 696 and 275 are mislabeled as even 3di's because they don't meet their parents at both ends. And 496 and 475 aren't bypasses. /s
I-696 and I-275 both end at an Interstate at both ends though which is acceptable for an even 3di. i-496 and I-475 are bypasses of I-96 and I-75 respectively.
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GaryV

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Re: Detroit - Removal of I-375
« Reply #274 on: June 10, 2023, 01:14:42 PM »

i-496 and I-475 are bypasses of I-96 and I-75 respectively.
Except they bypass thru the city instead of around, which some purists don't like.
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