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St Louis Soccer Stadium/64-40 Market St Exit

Started by ilpt4u, October 30, 2019, 06:51:16 PM

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ilpt4u

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/mls-stadium-will-go-north-of-market-street-include-practice/article_c452cf5a-cee8-56a8-b50e-1cbdde830bb4.html#2


view is looking Northwest from Market & 20th

St Louis has been awarded a Major League Soccer Expansion Team, and the new stadium has a site and plan

Best I can tell, the site is at least partially old ROW for the cancelled MO 755 Freeway

I assume the ramps to/from 64-40 going under Market St to Chestnut St and from Pine St will have to to bye-bye

Anyone have any more info on the plans vs what the Post-Dispatch has reported?

From the article it appears MoDOT still owns some of the land, but there is the structure of a deal to get it to the new franchise owners to build the new stadium

This is highway related, since it is cancelled Freeway ROW


mrsman

Quote from: ilpt4u on October 30, 2019, 06:51:16 PM
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/mls-stadium-will-go-north-of-market-street-include-practice/article_c452cf5a-cee8-56a8-b50e-1cbdde830bb4.html#2


view is looking Northwest from Market & 20th

St Louis has been awarded a Major League Soccer Expansion Team, and the new stadium has a site and plan

Best I can tell, the site is at least partially old ROW for the cancelled MO 755 Freeway

I assume the ramps to/from 64-40 going under Market St to Chestnut St and from Pine St will have to to bye-bye

Anyone have any more info on the plans vs what the Post-Dispatch has reported?

From the article it appears MoDOT still owns some of the land, but there is the structure of a deal to get it to the new franchise owners to build the new stadium

This is highway related, since it is cancelled Freeway ROW

Seems like a good location for a stadium.  Pretty close to Downtown.  Within a few blocks of Union Station.  Near I-64.  Available land.

I would imagine if they take out the ramps, they would instead put in a full interchange at jefferson ave (serving all directions with onramps and offramps) to help provide access to the area.

Bobby5280



Is anyone else bothered by the scale of the stadium in this image? Comparing the relative scale of the vehicles and lanes of the street on the left end of the image this soccer stadium looks abnormally SMALL. The site footprint looks no bigger than that of an ordinary theater multiplex. Not a facility that can hold tens of thousands of soccer fans.

ilpt4u

The site is basically 4 City Blocks...bordered by 20th on the East, Market on the South, 22nd St on the West, and Pine St on the North

Busch Stadium is 6 City Blocks (2 N-S, 3 E-W).

Enterprise Center + Parking Garage + Stifel Theatre + St Louis Government building all occupy a 4 City Block area together

Maybe it is not a good rendering...but there is space on this old Freeway ROW

rlb2024

Also keep in mind that soccer stadiums in the US are not as big as professional football and baseball stadiums.  This stadium is planned to seat 22,500, which would be a little above average for MLS.  There are very few soccer stadiums in the world that hold over 50,000 (home grounds for Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Real Madrid, Barcelona, and AC Milan/Inter Milan are a few that quickly come to mind).

ilpt4u

Doesn't Estadio Azteca in Mexico City seat over 80,000?

Soccer is played outside of Europe

That said, yeah, this new St Louis stadium is not exactly a 50,000 seat facility

mrsman

Quote from: ilpt4u on November 01, 2019, 12:40:26 AM
The site is basically 4 City Blocks...bordered by 20th on the East, Market on the South, 22nd St on the West, and Pine St on the North

Busch Stadium is 6 City Blocks (2 N-S, 3 E-W).

Enterprise Center + Parking Garage + Stifel Theatre + St Louis Government building all occupy a 4 City Block area together

Maybe it is not a good rendering...but there is space on this old Freeway ROW

If the stadium would only take up space north of Market, then they could still keep most of the ramps and just bring them to connect to Market instead of Chestnut and Pine. 

But the increased value of the nearby land would probably make it beneficial to develop the area south of Market as well. Then, it would be necessary to provide a WB exit and an EB entrance from I-64 to Jefferson.

It may also be beneficial to connect Clark from 21st to 22nd and to provide a surface street connection of some sort between 18th and 20th south of Union Station (Spruce or Poplar) to provide greater connectivity as the area gets further developed.  There is already an access road through the parking lot, it should be turned into a regular street.

rlb2024

Quote from: ilpt4u on November 01, 2019, 12:19:19 PM
Doesn't Estadio Azteca in Mexico City seat over 80,000?

Soccer is played outside of Europe

That said, yeah, this new St Louis stadium is not exactly a 50,000 seat facility
Yes, Azteca seats about 87,000.  The ones I listed are just the arenas I could think of off the top of my head as I mostly follow the EPL and UEFA Champions and Europa Leagues.  PSG, Bayern, and Dortmund also play in larger stadiums as do River Plate and all the teams that share the Maracana in Brazil.

thspfc

Quote from: rlb2024 on November 01, 2019, 06:31:01 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 01, 2019, 12:19:19 PM
Doesn't Estadio Azteca in Mexico City seat over 80,000?

Soccer is played outside of Europe

That said, yeah, this new St Louis stadium is not exactly a 50,000 seat facility
Yes, Azteca seats about 87,000.  The ones I listed are just the arenas I could think of off the top of my head as I mostly follow the EPL and UEFA Champions and Europa Leagues.  PSG, Bayern, and Dortmund also play in larger stadiums as do River Plate and all the teams that share the Maracana in Brazil.
This form likes to hate on soccer, so I don't think anyone knows what those teams are (I do, I'm a fellow soccer fan :)

ilpt4u

Quote from: thspfc on November 02, 2019, 10:37:40 AM
This form likes to hate on soccer, so I don't think anyone knows what those teams are (I do, I'm a fellow soccer fan :)
Well the new St Louis MLS Franchise just happens to give us a Soccer AND Road/Highway related story, since the stadium is to be built on mostly vacant land that is ROW for a cancelled freeway!

X99

Quote from: ilpt4u on November 02, 2019, 12:01:23 PM
Quote from: thspfc on November 02, 2019, 10:37:40 AM
This form likes to hate on soccer, so I don't think anyone knows what those teams are (I do, I'm a fellow soccer fan :)
Well the new St Louis MLS Franchise just happens to give us a Soccer AND Road/Highway related story, since the stadium is to be built on mostly vacant land that is ROW for a cancelled freeway!
Idea: Replace the south practice field with a two-level parking garage for the complex, and reconfigure the old ramps to exit to the first level. Put MO 755 signs on the ramps, and keep the route numbering through the structure to the north wall, with end route signs on the support pillars. Clark Street would connect across the gap at the second level of the parking garage, bridging over the ramps. (The area would be graded so that Clark Street is technically a surface street, and the ramps and first level of the garage are "underground" on the south side.)

Text visualization attempt (cross section from I-64 mainline looking north):

Clark Street          Parking level 2     Parking level 2          Clark Street
Graded land     I-64 ramps (MO 755)     Parking level 1     Graded land

Map visualization (overhead):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1DAEPk21e--0iWANBSmWrelLVwXu1DEHp&usp=sharing ("Ideas too small for separate categories" section, teal lines)


Too far Fictional?
why are there only like 5 people on this forum from south dakota

ilpt4u

Could just name the Soccer team "Saint Louis FC 755" ...

X99

Quote from: ilpt4u on November 03, 2019, 01:01:17 AM
Could just name the Soccer team "Saint Louis FC 755" ...
With a sign in front of the main entrance that looks like an official MO 755 state highway sign.
why are there only like 5 people on this forum from south dakota

ilpt4u

Quote from: X99 on November 03, 2019, 01:03:42 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 03, 2019, 01:01:17 AM
Could just name the Soccer team "Saint Louis FC 755" ...
With a sign in front of the main entrance that looks like an official MO 755 state highway sign.
Unless the team goes with Black and White for Colors, whatever color scheme is employed, I would be ok with a team-colored version of a standard MO Shield...but there should be some type of indicator that its to a Parking Garage, not a State Road, Highway, or Freeway

Other than those of us in the roadgeek community, how many average STL people even know the overpowered Market St Exit near Union Station is from a cancelled Freeway project, let alone the numbered designation of said cancelled Freeway?

X99

Quote from: ilpt4u on November 03, 2019, 01:09:56 AM
Quote from: X99 on November 03, 2019, 01:03:42 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 03, 2019, 01:01:17 AM
Could just name the Soccer team "Saint Louis FC 755" ...
With a sign in front of the main entrance that looks like an official MO 755 state highway sign.
Unless the team goes with Black and White for Colors, whatever color scheme is employed, I would be ok with a team-colored version of a standard MO Shield...but there should be some type of indicator that its to a Parking Garage, not a State Road, Highway, or Freeway
In that case, the "signs" would probably be painted on the walls of the garage. Northbound, the first sign would be on the outer wall above the ramp entrance, and the second would be an end route sign painted on a conveniently located support column at the north end of the parking garage (or if no column is available, painted on the far wall). Southbound would probably only be one sign marking the start of the "route" at the north end of the garage, since a freestanding end route sign just outside of the garage on the ramp would probably be frowned upon by MoDOT. This would also mean no 755 signs on the BGS's on I-64.

Also, I didn't think of the team colors thing. That's a good idea, matching the colors on the sign with the team colors.

it is 11:15 pm and i am severely overthinking this
why are there only like 5 people on this forum from south dakota

The Ghostbuster

Couldn't the new soccer team just play their games at the existing stadium The Dome at America's Center, where the St. Louis Rams football team played before they moved back to Los Angeles in 2015?

rlb2024

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 05, 2019, 03:14:27 PM
Couldn't the new soccer team just play their games at the existing stadium The Dome at America's Center, where the St. Louis Rams football team played before they moved back to Los Angeles in 2015?
No.  Facility is too large and not suited to soccer with a turf field.  Yes, some teams play on artificial turf but they try to avoid it if possible. I imagine part of the agreement to grant an expansion franchise was a soccer-specific stadium with natural grass.

X99

Quote from: rlb2024 on November 05, 2019, 03:43:37 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 05, 2019, 03:14:27 PM
Couldn't the new soccer team just play their games at the existing stadium The Dome at America's Center, where the St. Louis Rams football team played before they moved back to Los Angeles in 2015?
No.  Facility is too large and not suited to soccer with a turf field.  Yes, some teams play on artificial turf but they try to avoid it if possible. I imagine part of the agreement to grant an expansion franchise was a soccer-specific stadium with natural grass.
On an area that is currently a bunch of pavement. How do they expect the grass to grow normally with that? I'll bet that in 10 or 15 years, the ROW of the old ramp will still be visible on Google Maps aerials showing differences in the field, unless they put a ton of dirt on top of it.
why are there only like 5 people on this forum from south dakota

rlb2024

Quote from: X99 on November 05, 2019, 10:40:15 PM
Quote from: rlb2024 on November 05, 2019, 03:43:37 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 05, 2019, 03:14:27 PM
Couldn't the new soccer team just play their games at the existing stadium The Dome at America's Center, where the St. Louis Rams football team played before they moved back to Los Angeles in 2015?
No.  Facility is too large and not suited to soccer with a turf field.  Yes, some teams play on artificial turf but they try to avoid it if possible. I imagine part of the agreement to grant an expansion franchise was a soccer-specific stadium with natural grass.
On an area that is currently a bunch of pavement. How do they expect the grass to grow normally with that? I'll bet that in 10 or 15 years, the ROW of the old ramp will still be visible on Google Maps aerials showing differences in the field, unless they put a ton of dirt on top of it.
The playing surface is planned to be about 40 feet below street level so any trace of the existing pavement will be long gone.  This is common with most new stadiums to have the playing field well below the surrounding area -- they don't have to build as high, plus the entry from street level is more aesthetic.

SP Cook

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 05, 2019, 03:14:27 PM
Couldn't the new soccer team just play their games at the existing stadium The Dome at America's Center, where the St. Louis Rams football team played before they moved back to Los Angeles in 2015?

The current scheme in Major (sic) League Soccer is to hit up cities for "soccer specific stadiums"  which is an entirely North American term which can be translated as "small" . 

This is an illiterate term in two ways.  First, on the two continents where soccer is popular, Europe and South America, soccer is played in some of the largest stadiums on earth, and the idea that something small would be "soccer specific"  would be met with puzzlement.  Second, these "soccer specific"  places are just fine for regular football, rugby, lacrosse or other rectangular field sports.  In fact, Toronto's is used by the CFL, LA's, temporally, by the NFL, Houston's by a small college football team, and Dallas' is the home of the NCAA I-AA football championship.  All have hosted other rectangular field sports.

It is mostly a cover for not playing before seas of empty seats.


The Ghostbuster

I'm not a soccer fan, so I wouldn't know any of those things listed above.

ilpt4u

Quote from: SP Cook on November 06, 2019, 10:11:05 AM
The current scheme in Major (sic) League Soccer is to hit up cities for "soccer specific stadiums"  which is an entirely North American term which can be translated as "small" . 
The Chicago Fire are going the other way: They are leaving the Soccer Specific Toyota Park/SeatGeek Stadium in SW Suburban Bridgeview and heading back Downtown to Soldier Field for their Home games beginning next season

Soldier Field is certainly not "Soccer Specific"

X99

The ramp from eastbound I-64 to 20th Street has been removed from Google Maps. The other ramps remain in place, but probably not for long.
why are there only like 5 people on this forum from south dakota

ilpt4u

Quote from: X99 on February 25, 2020, 07:31:14 PM
The ramp from eastbound I-64 to 20th Street has been removed from Google Maps. The other ramps remain in place, but probably not for long.
That ramp has been removed, and Google Maps reports the other "755" /Market St ramps and 2 blocks of Pine St near the future stadium site are closed until Dec 2021

I'm guessing the 64-40 interchange designed for where MO 755 was to meet is either doomed, or at least it will be completely redesigned as the old Freeway ROW is developed as the new Soccer Stadium

Anthony_JK

Quote from: SP Cook on November 06, 2019, 10:11:05 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 05, 2019, 03:14:27 PM
Couldn't the new soccer team just play their games at the existing stadium The Dome at America's Center, where the St. Louis Rams football team played before they moved back to Los Angeles in 2015?

The current scheme in Major (sic) League Soccer is to hit up cities for "soccer specific stadiums"  which is an entirely North American term which can be translated as "small" . 

This is an illiterate term in two ways.  First, on the two continents where soccer is popular, Europe and South America, soccer is played in some of the largest stadiums on earth, and the idea that something small would be "soccer specific"  would be met with puzzlement.  Second, these "soccer specific"  places are just fine for regular football, rugby, lacrosse or other rectangular field sports.  In fact, Toronto's is used by the CFL, LA's, temporally, by the NFL, Houston's by a small college football team, and Dallas' is the home of the NCAA I-AA football championship.  All have hosted other rectangular field sports.

It is mostly a cover for not playing before seas of empty seats.



That "small college football team" in Houston happens to be Texas Southern University. They struck a deal to use the local MLS soccer stadium for their home football games because their lease with the University of Houston to use the latter's stadium (Robertson Stadium) expired years ago, and using Reliant Stadium (where the NFL's Houston Texans play) got to be too expensive. (When the Astrodome was still viable, they used that stadium.) TxSU does not have an on-campus football stadium, and don't have the funding to create one.

Funny, but downsizing stadia didn't prevent Atlanta's MLS franchise from using the Falcons' new arena (Mercedes Benz Stadium) for their games....and, their crowd support actually outdid the Falcons last year.






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