TX360 and US287 interchange is getting too much housing overgrowth

[motorola870]

So TXDOT is sleeping at the wheel they have not secured the ROW for SH 360 toll to be extended to US67 in Venus and they have let a developer build right up on the interchange and now they are building properties right in the middle of a future extension this should have been blocked and TXDOT should have built the service roads further south and make a cross over into the neighborhood.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/US-287+%26+TX-360,+Mansfield,+TX+76065/@32.5226613,-97.0835965,794m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x864e8aae4fa0cfe9:0x10ff8e9833e14ad8!8m2!3d32.5232086!4d-97.0820194

this is unacceptable and TXDOT actually sanctioned it as they have a two way traffic signal for the road coming out of the neighborhood.

https://goo.gl/maps/h3sjHwVmswr6CY9PA

[thisdj78]

So TXDOT is sleeping at the wheel they have not secured the ROW for SH 360 toll to be extended to US67 in Venus and they have let a developer build right up on the interchange and now they are building properties right in the middle of a future extension this should have been blocked and TXDOT should have built the service roads further south and make a cross over into the neighborhood.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/US-287+%26+TX-360,+Mansfield,+TX+76065/@32.5226613,-97.0835965,794m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x864e8aae4fa0cfe9:0x10ff8e9833e14ad8!8m2!3d32.5232086!4d-97.0820194

this is unacceptable and TXDOT actually sanctioned it as they have a two way traffic signal for the road coming out of the neighborhood.

https://goo.gl/maps/h3sjHwVmswr6CY9PA

That's just the sign for the neighborhood, I assume it will be moved once the extension is built. There's plenty of ROW for the highway to go straight south:

[The Ghostbuster]

Is it possible to further extend TX-360 further southward than US 67, such as connecting the route to either Interstate 35W or Interstate 35E? Even if there are no plans to extend it beyond US 67 at the present time?

[Bobby5280]

I don't think it's really necessary to extend TX-360 South past US-67, presumably to I-35W (that's the nearest of the two I-35 routes). That part of US-67 is along the DFW Regional Outer Loop proposals. TX-360 could end on that and it would be a short drive to I-35W.

Now a good amount of the proposed upgrades along or near US-67 in that area would have to be built on new alignments, such as a bypass around Alvarado (where US-67 meets I-35W). If that route takes a path too far to the North then there might be some value in TX-360 continuing on a more direct Southerly path to I-35W.

Regarding the US-287/TX-360 interchange, the land on the North side of the interchange has enough room for a traditional "Y" interchange. But the South side of the road is indeed looking pretty sketchy. A bunch of fancy housing addition entrances are being built immediately off the SB US-287 frontage road. A SB US-287 to SB TX-360 flyover would have to span over some of this stuff. I can just see these new property owners in that development raising all hell about that prospect.

[thisdj78]

Is it possible to further extend TX-360 further southward than US 67, such as connecting the route to either Interstate 35W or Interstate 35E? Even if there are no plans to extend it beyond US 67 at the present time?

These plans may be outdated, but looks like there was a proposal to extend past 67. Also remember that the Outer Loop will be passing in this area, so that could influence final routing:

[DJStephens]

have to wonder, also, why are the 287 main lines shifted?   Where they overpass the 360 frontage and future mainlines, and volleyball.  Certainly seems to have been unnecessary from looking at the aerial.   That sort of thing - shifting and skewing is all too commonplace today.   

[thisdj78]

have to wonder, also, why are the 287 main lines shifted?   Where they overpass the 360 frontage and future mainlines, and volleyball.  Certainly seems to have been unnecessary from looking at the aerial.   That sort of thing - shifting and skewing is all too commonplace today.

I've wondered that too. My only guess is that perhaps originally 360 was planned to curve southeast and merge with 287 at this point.

[Bobby5280]

The US-287/TX-360 interchange layout is definitely a bit strange. I don't like the odd angle the US-287 bridges take over the TX-360 frontage roads. It pushes the main lanes of US-287 too close to the SB US-287 frontage road on the West side of the interchange. That's not going to leave any room for a flyover ramp coming from SB US-287 to NB TX-360, much less another ramp from SB US-287 to SB TX-360. A bunch of this interchange may be stuck with volleyball connections via the frontage roads.

[armadillo speedbump]

Extending 360 eventually all the way to I-35e (or I-35w) has been in the plans for years, not just as a highway but also a potential high speed rail or high capacity transit commuter corridor.  Search the North Central Texas Council of Govt's website for various long range plans that show these.

[Bobby5280]

I'd like to know how they plan on doing the high speed rail thing, considering the right of way needed and mandatory grade separations between the rail line and streets or highways.

That Brightline experiment currently going on in South Florida is suffering from low ridership and a lot of collisions with vehicles at railroad crossings. The line is having to use the cost cutting measure of running on some existing freight line track with at-grade railroad crossings. Too many dingbat motorists are driving around railroad crossing arms and then getting slammed by the passenger trains going as fast as 70mph. That's not true high speed rail kinds of speed. A true high speed rail line needs speeds of 100mph or more. At grade railroad crossings are absolutely no good for that. Plus the tracks must run on far more straight, direct paths. Any curves must be extremely gradual. Limited access highways don't run paths that straight, especially any new super highways. That's going to make it a very tough challenge to build a link between Dallas-Fort Worth and Houston, much less have the lines reach the downtown districts in either city.

[Bobby5280]

Not only is the California HSR failure a colossal embarrassment to that state, but it should serve as a wake-up call to just how much the United States SUCKS at planning and building out infrastructure projects anymore. Other efforts at building regional city to city high speed rail links elsewhere in the US could easily suffer the same fate. It's not just a "California thing."

[MaxConcrete]

NCTCOG is launching the formal process to extend both SH 360 and the Chisholm Trail Parkway. See the letter in item 4.11 in the agenda link below

https://www.nctcog.org/nctcg/media/Transportation/Committees/RTC/2020/agenda-packet-nov.pdf?ext=.pdf

This letter does not mention the limits of the extensions. I assume that will be an item for study. For 360, one of the NCTCOG members is advocating extending it to Hillsboro, although that seems unlikely to me. There is also talk of a special connector from SH 360 to the Bush Turnpike along I-20. That project is mentioned in this article
https://communityimpact.com/transportation/2019/09/23/north-texas-tollway-authoritys-five-year-plan-includes-more-than-1-billion-worth-of-improvements/

[STLmapboy]

So TXDOT is sleeping at the wheel they have not secured the ROW for SH 360 toll to be extended to US67 in Venus and they have let a developer build right up on the interchange and now they are building properties right in the middle of a future extension this should have been blocked and TXDOT should have built the service roads further south and make a cross over into the neighborhood.

I know I'm late but...holy run-on sentence Batman!

[Duke87]

That's just the sign for the neighborhood, I assume it will be moved once the extension is built. There's plenty of ROW for the highway to go straight south

Nnnn not so fast. Yes, the Somerset subdivision is off to the west and not actually in the way. But there is a recently opened 7 Eleven directly in the path of any would-be southern 360 extension, right on the 287 frontage road. It can be seen under construction in March 2020 Street View.

Of course, that doesn't in and of itself mean anything. It just means TXDOT (and/or NTTA, as appropriate) will need to eminent domain and demolish that 7 Eleven in order to extend the road... which in Texas would be totally politically feasible for them to do.

I'd be more inclined to question the wisdom of the business owner choosing to build on that particular parcel of land as opposed to shortly to the west and thus out of the way... but then that may be a question of who owned what and was willing to sell it to them. 

It's also entirely possible the business owner is betting that by the time the state is actually ready to start acquiring land for a southerly 360 extension (bearing in mind they haven't even begun building the direct interchange with 287 yet) they'll have recouped their investment and be due for a renovation anyway.

[rte66man]

That's just the sign for the neighborhood, I assume it will be moved once the extension is built. There's plenty of ROW for the highway to go straight south

Nnnn not so fast. Yes, the Somerset subdivision is off to the west and not actually in the way. But there is a recently opened 7 Eleven directly in the path of any would-be southern 360 extension, right on the 287 frontage road. It can be seen under construction in March 2020 Street View.

What a stupid move.  Oklahoma City did the same thing when extending OK74 north of the Kilpatrick. They allowed an OnCue to be built in the immediate NW quadrant of the intersection with NW 164th.  ODT has it on their 8 year plan to convert that intersection to an interchange. 
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6387084,-97.5854122,3a,75y,277.75h,84.97t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sC3NuhEniJIi-yM7bfmafSg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DC3NuhEniJIi-yM7bfmafSg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D88.10219%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

[Road Hog]

A lot of times it seems to me that people build structures right in the middle of a future thoroughfare as a blatant money grab. They know they'll lose through eminent domain but they can hold the government hostage for a short while and get top dollar for their property.

I think sometimes they also build as a FU to the government, like the business park in McKinney that was just recently built in the path of the Lake Forest Drive expansion.

[Bobby5280]

The cure for this kind of bullshit is for long range corridor plans to be more well thought-out and then hammered like an absolute iron spike through the stupid brains at the state, county and local levels. Property set backs have to be enforced almost to a military level to stop sleazy local knucklehead ass-hats from undermining the big picture plans with their slick little deals.

This stupidity takes me back to the idiot situation on the West side of Oklahoma City when they were half-assing together a pretend South outer loop corridor plan for the metro. OTA built a partial turnpike extension East of I-44 half way over to I-35 and simply didn't finish the job. Absolutely pathetic. Then they built a 4-lane, 2-bridge crossing over the Canadian River and plotted out ROW next to a Super 2 just North of a new cloverleaf. But they didn't do a damned thing about reserving ROW in the town of Mustang and on up to I-40. So now the Southern part of the Kilpatrick Turnpike below I-40 is a twisty, turning joke of an extension that only goes to Airport Road rather than the bigger design originally conceived. We don't follow through for shit here in Oklahoma. It's embarrassing. If this keeps up the state will have to change its name from Oklahoma to Joke-la-homa.

Texas has a very long history of being extremely superior to Oklahoma at reserving and maintaining future freeway corridors. It's not even any contest at all. The difference is nearly absolute black and white. But with that being said, that makes it even more shocking that someone idiot jerk somewhere signed off on giving a convenience store operator a building permit to construct a new convenience store directly in the path of where TX-360 was supposed to extend farther South. That's just sheer lunacy.

[Road Hog]

That location is either in Mansfield city limits or its ETJ. Either way, sounds like their P&Z dropped the ball.

[Bobby5280]

TX DOT, or rather the toll road authority du jour responsible for the TX-360 turnpike, will be on the hook to pay a really stupid amount of money to buy out and demolish that convenience store to make way for the toll road extension and its flanking "free" frontage roads. I doubt if they could get away with building highway bridges over the top of that building (given current regulations and practices). And building over or around an existing convenience store building would likely cost a lot more than what the convenience store building is worth.

Meanwhile, while TX DOT, NTTA or whoever struggles to get their heads and asses wired together correctly, I would expect other developers to build even more shit that encroaches the future TX 360 ROW. The clock is ticking.

[armadillo speedbump]

So TXDOT is sleeping at the wheel they have not secured the ROW for SH 360 toll to be extended to US67 in Venus and they have let a developer build right up on the interchange and now they are building properties right in the middle of a future extension this should have been blocked and TXDOT should have built the service roads further south and make a cross over into the neighborhood.

I know I'm late but...holy run-on sentence Batman!

All gas, no brakes.

So I have no concrete new info, but noticed on the FM 157 study map that a huge subdivision has been platted out that would block 360 being extended directly south.

https://ftp.txdot.gov/pub/txdot-info/ftw/fort_worth_fm157_map.pdf

Googoo maps shows a part of the development under construction, so this would either force 360 way to the west or a bit eastward.  It also shows construction east of what was platted on the map, so who knows how much further east that neighborhood will extend, but the new street goes all the way to 287.  There is a 400' wide powerline corridor running in between the 2 built sections.  I see that 360 and its frontage roads narrowed to less than 300' when crossing under the railroad a few miles to the north.  So maybe along the powerline will be the route.  Several overpasses for all those cross streets, which suggests the neighborhood was not designed for anything but utilities in that powerline ROW.  I suspect all those new homeowners will fight that route.

The power lines run straight all the way south to 67.  Just east of there 67 becomes free flowing and then a freeway eastbound.  I'd love to eventually see direct connectors from south to west and the remainder of 67 to Alvaredo upgraded to freeway or free flow, and then west to south direct connectors at 35W.  Would make a great reliever outlet for central and north DFW headed towards Austin, 35W is often overloaded from I-20 to Egan.


BTW, it seems like NCTCOG has gone to crap in the last decade when it comes to archiving information.  So many maps and other info have disappeared, or at least no longer easily found.  Sure maps can go out of date, but should be revised and updated rather than dropped.  I can often only find the most simple maps and that's it.   Their website used to be a wealth of good info, one of the best COG's in the US.  What happened?

[MaxConcrete]

You have a very valid concern about the SH 360 corridor preservation.
I just sent the following email to the two persons listed on the NCTCOG MTP site. https://www.nctcog.org/trans/plan/mtp

Hello,

This project is listed in the Mobility 2045 - 2022 Update, on page 11, MTP ID 9.50.1, $218 million. I support the project.

The map for the SH 360 extension on the NCTCOG site shows the corridor running parallel to the county line in Ellis county, east of the county line and east of Cypress Road.
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/8b37e00b63d74461bd607328cebd20e9

Looking at the Prairie Ridge subdivision web site, it appears that the subdivision has already encroached on the proposed corridor, and homes are being built all the way to the county line
https://prairieridgetx.com/xo/

This 2007 map from TxDOT's FM 157 study shows the Prairie Ridge master plan blocking any possible alignment for SH 360 west of the county line (in Johnson County). I was not able to find a current master plan on the Prairie Ridge web site.
https://ftp.txdot.gov/pub/txdot-info/ftw/fort_worth_fm157_map.pdf

I just want to verify that NCTCOG is aware of this situation, and NCTCOG is involved in coordinating the right-of-way preservation for the SH 360 corridor.

Thanks,

[Bobby5280]

Multiple corridor locations around the DFW region are rapidly degrading. The possible TX-360 extension is just one of several. We have a big stretch of US-380. TX-114 between US-287 and I-35W is fixing to become a lost cause; it won't be long before it's a busy city street pigged with traffic signals. US-82 is becoming a more urgent situation. I have no idea how NTTA is going to extend the George Bush Turnpike South of I-30 by Lake Ray Hubbard. More and more property continues to be built in the way of that toll road extension path.

I don't know what is going on with planning in the DFW area. Their methods are starting to resemble those here in Oklahoma. Much of Texas overall used to be very good at corridor preservation. It looks like much of that philosophy of planning for the future has died off. Now it just appears the planning departments on city and state levels are just winging it. Maybe they're under-paid and short staffed. Maybe real estate developers have taken over; they want their deals sealed now and screw whatever traffic situations arise in the future. They're just trying to ink enough R-1 zoned high-priced housing deals signed before the whole scam collapses again.

[DJStephens]

TX DOT, or rather the toll road authority du jour responsible for the TX-360 turnpike, will be on the hook to pay a really stupid amount of money to buy out and demolish that convenience store to make way for the toll road extension and its flanking "free" frontage roads. I doubt if they could get away with building highway bridges over the top of that building (given current regulations and practices). And building over or around an existing convenience store building would likely cost a lot more than what the convenience store building is worth.

Meanwhile, while TX DOT, NTTA or whoever struggles to get their heads and asses wired together correctly, I would expect other developers to build even more shit that encroaches the future TX 360 ROW. The clock is ticking.

Loop 375 ramps were built almost directly over a Shell convenience store, on the SE quadrant of I-10 and 375.  That entire area was vacant in the mid nineties.   Seem almost no planning or foresight was in place, as El Paso grew, and especially in it's western and eastern sectors.   Instead of a symmetrical stack for the Santa Teresa border entrance highway and Loop 375 to meet, they were "broken" into two separate interchanges, yep, with volleyballish interchanges.   Out of control residential growth, too dense, choked the area, and a major outlet mall was dropped at the 10/375 interchange.  Today, it's a mess.   All could have been prevented, had there been planning in place.   

[MaxConcrete]

I received this response from NCTCOG regarding the SH 360 extension.

I would point out that we are very aware of the right of way constraints as it relates to the extension of SH 360 from US 287 to US 67. We are coordinating both public and private sector interests including developers, cities, NTTA and TxDOT in the preservation of right of way for the corridor.

So efforts are in progress. Most likely the solution will require swerving the tollway westward into Johnson County.

The subject of right-of-way loss was discussed at the October NCTCOG meeting. See agenda item 11 starting at 14:15
https://nctcog.swagit.com/play/10132022-684

As the chairman discussed, counties have no mechanism to stop developers from building in the path of future designated freeways. Developers don't care if they're building in a future freeway right-of-way, and since they have the legal right to build, they build. NCTCOG is proposing legislation to empower counties to protect right-of-way. Of course, it is always difficult to get any legislation passed, and an arcane subject like this will be especially difficult. But at least attention is being focused on this problem.

[Bobby5280]

TX DOT just needs to once again grow the balls it takes to build highways that are freeway-friendly to upgrades. They used to do a great deal of that 30-50 years ago, but not so much anymore.

As far as I can remember, big chunks of US-287 between Wichita Falls and Fort Worth had a big median wide enough to hold a future freeway. I remember Kell Blvd in Wichita Falls back in the 1970's and early 1980's being a divided street with a freeway-size median. Now there's a freeway there. There are numerous other examples of wide, divided highways around Texas that could easily be upgraded. But many of those highways have been around a long time.

They know they don't even have to build a freeway to protect a freeway-size corridor. It can be as "small" as a 2-lane street with a 250' wide swatch grassy space reserved off to one side. Apparently there is no "glamour" these days in a highway department just buying a strip of land to hold it for future use later. They've done this with a tiny portion of the Colin County Outer Loop (but left much of the ROW preservation job very not finished). Same goes for the Northern-most extension of the Dallas North Tollway.

The Southern extension of the TX-360 toll road may end up with some fairly hard curves going South of US-287, similar to the curvy nonsense the Kilpatrick Turnpike has to do going South of I-40. And that's assuming that Southern extension of TX-360 is actually ever built. Current interest rates might slow down the pace of development and buy TX DOT a little bit of extra time. But it won't be long before that whole area is totally blockaded in with planned residential developments.