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Fake river boundaries

Started by Scott5114, September 20, 2020, 11:57:11 PM

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Scott5114

This might take a bit of explaining. Where are some places where you appear to cross a political boundary like a state line, and a river (or other geographical feature) at the same time, but the two are not coincident?

For example, where I-90 crosses the Washington—Idaho state line, it would appear to the lay observer that the Spokane River defines the state line. After all, you cross the river, and the first sign after leaving the bridge is "Welcome to Idaho" or "Welcome to Washington". But the Spokane River is not the state line; it's a man-made north-south line here that just happens to intersect with I-90 at the same place it crosses the Spokane River.

Another example with a county line: the I-40 Canadian—Oklahoma county line in Oklahoma City. With the way it's signed, you may just think Oklahoma is being awkward with its sign placement, and the North Canadian River is the boundary. But no, the county line is really a north—south line at about where the sign is, and then you cross the river a few hundred feet into Oklahoma County.
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TheHighwayMan3561

#1
The St. Louis/Lake County line on MN 61 northeast of Duluth would appear to most motorists to be the Knife River, but it's not.

https://goo.gl/maps/1iJABD6egWQ98pTN7
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sparker

It appears that I-405, when going from Los Angeles to Orange Counties, crosses the county line at the San Gabriel River bridge, whereas the actual county line is several hundred yards east just west of the I-605 interchange.  That particular county line only coincidentally follows any landmark or facility; it seems to have been laid out either by where a survey transit was positioned 100 years ago -- or to accomplish some specific political goal.  It criss-crosses both the San Gabriel River and its tributary, the Los Cerritos Creek waterway, long converted to a concrete flood-control channel.  Its randomness has caused interagency issues for those towns on either side of the line that contract with the relevant county's sheriff's office for law enforcement -- since sometimes one residental block is split between counties -- one house in L.A. county, while the one next to it is in OC.   

GenExpwy

My mother always insisted the (old) US 15 bridge over the Cowanesque River at Lawrenceville PA was exactly on the New York—Pennsylvania line (it's actually about 600 feet north in New York). The river under the bridges on new US 15/future I-99 is about 1200 feet from the state line, but in Pennsylvania.

Great Lakes Roads

You would think that the Ohio River is the state boundary for Indiana/Kentucky? Well, not really when you head south of Evansville on US 41 after the I-69 interchange, and it's about a 1.5 miles south of the state line to cross the Ohio River.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.9302273,-87.5739325,13z

Even though KYTC primarily maintains both bridges, INDOT has secondary control over those bridges.

Paulinator66

It's generally understood that the Mississippi river is the western boundary of Illinois but Kaskaskia, IL is west of the river due to a flood and subsequent change in the river channel.  Plus, there is no bridge at Kaskaskia so it's the only city in IL that you have to access through MO. 

1995hoo

Arlington Memorial Bridge in Washington DC would be an outstanding example of this, and I'd wager the vast majority of local residents, even those who use the bridge every day, think they're crossing from DC into Virginia, or vice versa, when they're on the bridge. They're not–the islands in the river are in the District of Columbia (or Maryland, depending on where the islands are), and the southern/western end of that bridge is on Columbia Island.

It doesn't help that there are no signs marking where the line actually is.
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webny99

I'm assuming places like this are not what's being looked for? Or, at least, it wouldn't be relevant unless there was a road crossing there.



Quote from: GenExpwy on September 21, 2020, 03:31:59 AM
My mother always insisted the (old) US 15 bridge over the Cowanesque River at Lawrenceville PA was exactly on the New York—Pennsylvania line (it's actually about 600 feet north in New York). The river under the bridges on new US 15/future I-99 is about 1200 feet from the state line, but in Pennsylvania.

That's a good one. I can never quite seem to place exactly where the state line is, but that bridge has always been a good enough approximation, even though I know (obviously) that the NY/PA line is the 42nd parallel, not the Cowanesque* River.

*Actually marked as a branch of the Tioga River on Google Maps.

jmacswimmer

The towering bridges carrying the Mon-Fayette Expressway over Rubles Run, with the WV-PA border actually running approximately east-west just north of the bridge.
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NWI_Irish96

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on September 21, 2020, 04:08:24 AM
You would think that the Ohio River is the state boundary for Indiana/Kentucky? Well, not really when you head south of Evansville on US 41 after the I-69 interchange, and it's about a 1.5 miles south of the state line to cross the Ohio River.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.9302273,-87.5739325,13z

Even though KYTC primarily maintains both bridges, INDOT has secondary control over those bridges.

There are a few instances on both the KY and IL borders where the state border is on what presumably was the routing of the river in 1800 but has since changed.
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Takumi

I-85 crosses from Brunswick County into Mecklenburg County (VA, not NC) just southwest of its crossing of the Meherrin River.
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Old Dominionite

Most of the Delaware Memorial Bridge is in Delaware as the state boundary runs along the east bank of the Delaware River. Since both Delaware and New Jersey place welcome signs on their respective shores, an unassuming motorist might think the state line crosses the bridges at mid-span. Only small (and unhelpful) blue signs are found at the actual state line, along with "0" mile markers from NJ.

GaryA

Quote from: Old Dominionite on September 21, 2020, 12:03:01 PM
Most of the Delaware Memorial Bridge is in Delaware as the state boundary runs along the east bank of the Delaware River. Since both Delaware and New Jersey place welcome signs on their respective shores, an unassuming motorist might think the state line crosses the bridges at mid-span. Only small (and unhelpful) blue signs are found at the actual state line, along with "0" mile markers from NJ.

And, because the border is based on the historic river bank, there are some areas on the NJ side of the river that are actually part of Delaware.

jemacedo9

Quote from: Old Dominionite on September 21, 2020, 12:03:01 PM
Most of the Delaware Memorial Bridge is in Delaware as the state boundary runs along the east bank of the Delaware River. Since both Delaware and New Jersey place welcome signs on their respective shores, an unassuming motorist might think the state line crosses the bridges at mid-span. Only small (and unhelpful) blue signs are found at the actual state line, along with "0" mile markers from NJ.
Headed westbound (southbound) there is a line painted on the roadway with the words Delaware and new Jersey painted as well.  I don't know if the same exists in the other direction.

Scott5114

Quote from: webny99 on September 21, 2020, 08:14:16 AM
I'm assuming places like this are not what's being looked for? Or, at least, it wouldn't be relevant unless there was a road crossing there.

Correct. There should be a road, and ideally, some reason like signage to think the two are related (other than a misconception in the traveler's head).
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CoreySamson

Does this count?

Where US 70/183 crosses the Red River, the OK/TX border looks like it is at the Red River, but in reality the border is about 400 feet to the north.
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Scott5114

Quote from: CoreySamson on September 21, 2020, 02:15:42 PM
Does this count?

Where US 70/183 crosses the Red River, the OK/TX border looks like it is at the Red River, but in reality the border is about 400 feet to the north.

No, because there the border is based on where the river was at one time. It's generally true to say "the OK/TX border is the Red River" there.

Likewise, situations where the border follows a riverbank rather than the center of the channel are not what I'm looking for, since the river still defines the boundary.
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JKRhodes

#17
There's a large sandy wash right next to the AZ/NM  border on the Duncan-Virden Hwy (aka NM-92/Virden Rd):

https://goo.gl/maps/BDzD5oK1AxTD9JyM8
https://goo.gl/maps/x4vsn15wRta97kc19

New Mexico did a little bit of extra paving inside Arizona, up to Lunt Lane about 50 feet west of the state line. Google thinks it's still a NM route at that point.


On US 70 at the NM state line, the road transitions from the bottom of the valley to the top of a plateau:

https://goo.gl/maps/rNMHKEm7zkxw4tnv9


In both instances it's easy to assume the border is based on some geographical features and not an arbitrary line, though certainly not as dramatic as the Idaho/Washington example.

cpzilliacus

#18
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 21, 2020, 07:38:23 AM
Arlington Memorial Bridge in Washington DC would be an outstanding example of this, and I'd wager the vast majority of local residents, even those who use the bridge every day, think they're crossing from DC into Virginia, or vice versa, when they're on the bridge. They're not–the islands in the river are in the District of Columbia (or Maryland, depending on where the islands are), and the southern/western end of that bridge is on Columbia Island.

It doesn't help that there are no signs marking where the line actually is.

NPS apparently hates to sign political boundaries.  Your example is a good one.  There are no signs at all marking the D.C./Virginia border on the George Washington Memorial Parkway, nor on Washington Boulevard, S.W. nor on Memorial Avenue, S.W.

For some reason the Maryland/D.C. border is signed on Clara Barton Parkway, N.W. (example headed into Maryland here).

Another example is on U.S. 50 on the east side of the District of Columbia.  The border is at  the east end of the bridge that carries U.S. 50 (New York Avenue, N.E.) over the Anacostia River, but the border just happens to cross the river near the DDOT-maintained bridge (map here).

Because the Maryland approach to the bridge is National Park Service maintenance, there's no sign that mentions the D.C./Maryland border at all.  The sign put up by D.C. is well beyond the bridge on the westbound side here near the Costco store, and the one installed by Maryland is well after U.S. 50 becomes a state-maintained road here.  There is no sign at all on the Baltimore-Washington Parkway ("secret" MD-295).

On another NPS Parkway, the Blue Ridge Parkway, when I first drove it many years ago, there was no sign informing parkway users that they had crossed a state boundary.  According to GSV there has been one since at least 2008 (when GSV last drove the parkway), headed north from N.C. to Va. here and south from the Commonwealth into North Carolina here.

IMO the style of these  signs are appropriate for a national park, and would work well at the locations discussed above.
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ErmineNotyours

Wow, I was thinking of making this very topic, but I didn't think there would be any other examples besides the Spokane River one.  North of that example at US 2 by Newport, Washington, the rough scale of the Washington State Highway Map made it look like there was a bridge crossing the straight north/south border.  Not until I had Google Maps did I find that the bridge is entirely in Idaho, and Idaho State Highway 41 starts west of the bridge, running down the state border.

US 89

#20
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 21, 2020, 09:36:49 PM
NPS apparently hates to sign political boundaries.

I'm not seeing it on GSV's 2018 imagery, but I'm fairly certain the Montana-Wyoming border was signed on US 20 the West Entrance Road when I drove through Yellowstone this past summer. I can't think of any other signed state boundaries on NPS roads I've been on.

As far as the thread goes, the closest thing I can think of in Utah is the Millard/Sevier County boundary and a few others like it. Like a lot of other county boundaries in the mountainous western US, it follows a drainage divide - but instead of being defined on the divide exactly, it is defined along section lines that roughly approximate the divide. I-70 and US 50 both cross the county line within a half-mile of the point where they cross the ridgeline.

GenExpwy

Quote from: webny99 on September 21, 2020, 08:14:16 AM
I'm assuming places like this are not what's being looked for? Or, at least, it wouldn't be relevant unless there was a road crossing there.



Quote from: GenExpwy on September 21, 2020, 03:31:59 AM
My mother always insisted the (old) US 15 bridge over the Cowanesque River at Lawrenceville PA was exactly on the New York—Pennsylvania line (it's actually about 600 feet north in New York). The river under the bridges on new US 15/future I-99 is about 1200 feet from the state line, but in Pennsylvania.

That's a good one. I can never quite seem to place exactly where the state line is, but that bridge has always been a good enough approximation, even though I know (obviously) that the NY/PA line is the 42nd parallel, not the Cowanesque* River.

*Actually marked as a branch of the Tioga River on Google Maps.

I'll bet even Google doesn't know where the state line is. Google maps shows the state line running down the center of State St/Mill St, but I think it makes more sense if it runs behind the houses on the north side of the street. That's where the pavement changes, and it would line up better with sections to the east and west.

SectorZ

https://goo.gl/maps/dRP1mpB2tiiq8cRbA

This one isn't due to a river that moved. Never found out why that bit of Hampton is on the other side of the inlet of the Hampton River.

paulthemapguy

The river isn't EXACTLY in the same position as the state border, but I'm sure a lot of people who cross the border from Minnesota to South Dakota on US12 will think that the bridge is the state border.  The welcome sign isn't until past the bridge, even though the bridge is squarely in SD.  https://goo.gl/maps/LvC3cJCxtMR3H15w6
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texaskdog

what I think is funny is when rivers are boundaries but then the river course changes



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