Texas Wants to Know: When will construction on Interstate 35 be complete?

[ZLoth]

From NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth:

Texas Wants to Know: When will construction on Interstate 35 be complete?

If you're driving to San Antonio to see the Alamo, to Austin to go to a music festival, to Dallas or Fort Worth to see the Cowboys or visit the Stockyards, odds are you'll be on Interstate 35.

"Interstate 35 is Main Street, Texas," said Michael Morris, the director of transportation for the North Central Texas Council of Governments.

But "Main Street"  opened in the 1960s, which means parts of it are already more than 60 years old. The solution to those problems so far has been about two decades of major road work up and down the I-35 corridor, through four of the state's five largest cities.

FULL ARTICLE HERE

And, of course, we have Austin... 

"A boulevard with bus lanes, bike lanes, and some car lanes would actually move a lot more people," said Adam Greenfield, board president of the group Rethink 35, which advocates for a different use of the land. "Highways are actually very poor. Movers of large numbers of people because cars are very space inefficient. They lock up in congestion. That's a basic-level bug that they have."

[rlb2024]

Never.

[Anthony_JK]

And, of course, we have Austin... 

"A boulevard with bus lanes, bike lanes, and some car lanes would actually move a lot more people," said Adam Greenfield, board president of the group Rethink 35, which advocates for a different use of the land. "Highways are actually very poor. Movers of large numbers of people because cars are very space inefficient. They lock up in congestion. That's a basic-level bug that they have."

How much of that percentage of traffic on I-35 through Austin is through traffic? And, you really think that they would sludge along a 4-lane boulevard loaded with traffic lights and bike lanes and cross streets, only to chose a bypass (SH 45S/SH 130) that is ALREADY loaded to the gills and would be even more so if the tolls are removed? But, just give people bikes and buses to stroll their way through downtown and everything will be OK, right?

"Rethink 35??" More like NOThink. Braindead.

And I generally support rehabilitation of downtowns AND more balanced transportation. But this is MADNESS.

[ZLoth]

How much of that percentage of traffic on I-35 through Austin is through traffic? And, you really think that they would sludge along a 4-lane boulevard loaded with traffic lights and bike lanes and cross streets, only to chose a bypass (SH 45S/SH 130) that is ALREADY loaded to the gills and would be even more so if the tolls are removed? But, just give people bikes and buses to stroll their way through downtown and everything will be OK, right?

"Rethink 35??" More like NOThink. Braindead.

Yeah, please explain to me how vehicles idling in the middle of a downtown during the daytime because of congestion is more enviromentally friendly than having them flowing. Public transit has it challenges, especially in "keeping it affordable". If a city in the DFW area wants to be part Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART), they have to dedicate 1% of the 2% available sales tax revenue to DART. (Texas has a state 6.25% sales tax, and allows cities to charge an additional 2% within that city). While the US-75 corridor is booming all the way up to Melissa, the DART light rail that parallels US-75 only goes up to Plano. The next city to the north, Allen, prefer to use that 1% for both the Allen Economic Development Corporation and Allen Community Development Corporation.

[Max Rockatansky]

How the fuck are bus and bike lanes supposed to replace the carrying capacity of an Interstate highway?

[Rothman]

How the fuck are bus and bike lanes supposed to replace the carrying capacity of an Interstate highway?

They're gonna pack the bus and be able to accommodate all the origins and destinations of the current Interstate traffic, obviously.

[thisdj78]

The challenge is that, unless a city was public transit oriented from the beginning (eg. before cars were readily available), you aren't going to be able to change or force people's behaviors. Once a region becomes car centric, there's no going back.

[Max Rockatansky]

You mean to say that 326 square mile city can't accommodate a mass transit first mindset?  What madness is this?

How the fuck are bus and bike lanes supposed to replace the carrying capacity of an Interstate highway?

They're gonna pack the bus and be able to accommodate all the origins and destinations of the current Interstate traffic, obviously.

And Route frequency no doubt?

[Bobby5280]

"A boulevard with bus lanes, bike lanes, and some car lanes would actually move a lot more people,"

Typical limousine liberal hypocrisy. And I'm saying that as someone with moderate, middle-of-the-road views.

These rich people love to wax poetic about the virtues of public transit. But none of these jerks actually live the bus-riding experience. They're not standing out in the rain, freezing cold (or brutal Texas summer heat) at a bus stop. They're not strap-hanging inside a bus that's packed like sardines with other passengers. No. They drive their own personal vehicles or use a car service. Yet they expect all us "ordinary" middle and lower class people to park our vehicles and burn up much more of our time using public transit. It's either that or pay all sorts of penalties to continue driving, whether it's wasting more and more time idling at traffic signals or paying high tolls and parking fees to enter a certain part of town.

The schemes to tear out I-35 and turn it into a surface street is really a ploy for selling commercial and residential real estate. If the Interstate is removed and replaced by a surface street all the extra space needed for ramps, frontage roads, etc can be redeveloped. The efforts have zero to do with helping "disadvantaged people."

The housing market in metro Austin is under-going a worsening affordability crisis. Where are the anti-freeway people on that? All these efforts to remove urban freeways and "repair damage caused by neighborhoods being disconnected" is really a bunch of crap. The damage was done decades ago. And freeways or no freeways, American housing is already very segregated by race and class. The real motivation for freeway removal is to spread gentrification. When the low income neighborhood no longer has a freeway between it and the "better" homes the real estate developers can move in and replace or renovate the low income housing with "luxury" apartments. And the people the anti-freeway activists claimed they were going to help can pack their bags and move as they get priced out of that "restored" neighborhood.

In the case of I-35 and Austin, I don't think there is any realistic chance at all of it being turned into a surface street. It would drop a traffic bomb onto the city. I don't know the breakdown of thru vs local traffic on I-35, but what I do know is a hell of a lot of commercial trucks move goods on I-35. If all of those semis had to slowly trudge through dozens of traffic signals to get thru Austin it would unleash all sorts of problems, some of them very dangerous.

[thisdj78]

"A boulevard with bus lanes, bike lanes, and some car lanes would actually move a lot more people,"

In the case of I-35 and Austin, I don't think there is any realistic chance at all of it being turned into a surface street. It would drop a traffic bomb onto the city. I don't know the breakdown of thru vs local traffic on I-35, but what I do know is a hell of a lot of commercial trucks move goods on I-35. If all of those semis had to slowly trudge through dozens of traffic signals to get thru Austin it would unleash all sorts of problems, some of them very dangerous.

First, I'm on the same page as you, so I'm purely addressing the last part as devil's advocate:

True, I-35 will never be turned into a boulevard, but hypothetically, if it did....it would be almost guaranteed that commercial truck traffic would be heavily restricted, with thru traffic moved to 130.

Vancouver BC, which has a similar metro population as Austin, has no freeway passing through their downtown. They have designated truck routes in the city for that very reason:

https://vancouver.ca/streets-transportation/truck-routes-maps-and-regulations.aspx

[Max Rockatansky]

Vancouver is also about 44.5 square miles.  Being that much more densely packed helps a ton in regards to making mass transit options more viable.

[thisdj78]

Vancouver is also about 44.5 square miles.  Being that much more densely packed helps a ton in regards to making mass transit options more viable.

I know, that's why I compared metro areas. The metro population densities aren't too much different from each other.

The point is, both metro areas have a lot of commercial truck traffic moving through them.

[Max Rockatansky]

Vancouver is also about 44.5 square miles.  Being that much more densely packed helps a ton in regards to making mass transit options more viable.

I know, that's why I compared metro areas. The metro population densities aren't too much different from each other.

The point is, both metro areas have a lot of commercial truck traffic moving through them.

The Greater Austin area also is substantially larger by land area than metro Vancouver (approximately 4,279 square miles versus 1,112 square miles).  Sure, the number of residents is similar but this is far from an apples to apples comparison. 

[ethanhopkin14]

I still don't understand how a freeway divides neighborhoods.  They are still grade separated and there are overpasses and underpasses. Everyone complains about I-345 separating Deep Elum from downtown Dallas, but Pacific Ave. and Elm St. go under I-345.  I have run a half marathon on Elm St. and everyone didn't suddenly stop because they were going under a freeway.  Same concept in Austin.  Manor Road goes over (and under) I-35 and I have walked it and very continuously went from the UT campus to east Austin, and would argue I did it easier than I would have done it if there was a surface street there because the service roads carry a 10th the traffic where the surface street has 100% the traffic.  I don't understand where this is coming from. 

[Max Rockatansky]

I still don't understand how a freeway divides neighborhoods.  They are still grade separated and there are overpasses and underpasses. Everyone complains about I-345 separating Deep Elum from downtown Dallas, but Pacific Ave. and Elm St. go under I-345.  I have run a half marathon on Elm St. and everyone didn't suddenly stop because they were going under a freeway.  Same concept in Austin.  Manor Road goes over (and under) I-35 and I have walked it and very continuously went from the UT campus to east Austin, and would argue I did it easier than I would have done it if there was a surface street there because the service roads carry a 10th the traffic where the surface street has 100% the traffic.  I don't understand where this is coming from.

What, someone else who partakes in distance running who doesn't understand how freeways are much of a physical obstacle?  Personally I've found railroads to be more troublesome on runs when I have to cross them at grade.  If a train comes unexpectedly usually the detour or wait is lengthy.  Most freeways usually have enough overpasses and underpasses that it makes getting around them at running speed pretty simple.

When I lived in Hanford freight trains along the BNSF line could be a significant problem.  The southbound trains often stopped in the middle of downtown which required I either detour on foot a mile to the west to find a clear crossing.  One aspect of the California HSR I really appreciate as a runner is that most of the roads that cross the line are being converted to have grade separations.  These have already allowed me to take chances with some new running routes in downtown and south of the city.

[ZLoth]

"A boulevard with bus lanes, bike lanes, and some car lanes would actually move a lot more people,"

Typical limousine liberal hypocrisy. And I'm saying that as someone with moderate, middle-of-the-road views.

These rich people love to wax poetic about the virtues of public transit. But none of these jerks actually live the bus-riding experience. They're not standing out in the rain, freezing cold (or brutal Texas summer heat) at a bus stop.

Based upon your comment, my counter-question would be... how many of those people own high-density housing (read apartment buildings) right near those transit lines? Makes you wonder.

Although the Texas heat in the summer has nothing like the heat and humidity of Miami. I should know, I was there in September, 2018 and used their Metromover system.

[J N Winkler]

I still don't understand how a freeway divides neighborhoods.  They are still grade separated and there are overpasses and underpasses. Everyone complains about I-345 separating Deep Elum from downtown Dallas, but Pacific Ave. and Elm St. go under I-345.  I have run a half marathon on Elm St. and everyone didn't suddenly stop because they were going under a freeway.  Same concept in Austin.  Manor Road goes over (and under) I-35 and I have walked it and very continuously went from the UT campus to east Austin, and would argue I did it easier than I would have done it if there was a surface street there because the service roads carry a 10th the traffic where the surface street has 100% the traffic.  I don't understand where this is coming from.

There is a concept called psychological severance.  It is used to explain why, e.g., putting a deck park over a freeway does not restore the same sense of continuity in the urban fabric that would exist if the freeway were not there at all.

[Max Rockatansky]

I still don't understand how a freeway divides neighborhoods.  They are still grade separated and there are overpasses and underpasses. Everyone complains about I-345 separating Deep Elum from downtown Dallas, but Pacific Ave. and Elm St. go under I-345.  I have run a half marathon on Elm St. and everyone didn't suddenly stop because they were going under a freeway.  Same concept in Austin.  Manor Road goes over (and under) I-35 and I have walked it and very continuously went from the UT campus to east Austin, and would argue I did it easier than I would have done it if there was a surface street there because the service roads carry a 10th the traffic where the surface street has 100% the traffic.  I don't understand where this is coming from.

There is a concept called psychological severance.  It is used to explain why, e.g., putting a deck park over a freeway does not restore the same sense of continuity in the urban fabric that would exist if the freeway were not there at all.

It probably is also worth noting that in the context of being a distance runner that the deterrent obstacles aren't one for one with waking.  A single mile running is not unreasonable at speeds that take 6-9 minutes I've found.  I can certainly see how a mile would be a problem walking when it would take 20-30 minutes at a brisk pace..

[Bobby5280]

Vancouver BC, which has a similar metro population as Austin, has no freeway passing through their downtown.

Vancouver has a very different geographic location compared to Austin. It's on the coast and functions as a dead end of sorts for the highway network. There aren't any major destinations farther West or Northwest of Vancouver.

Austin is an entirely inland metro with major destinations in all directions, but much more so via I-35. San Antonio, Laredo and commerce from Mexico is to the South and DFW and other points beyond are to the North. I-35 has run somewhat thru the middle of Austin for many years. Vancouver has never had a -thru- super highway running through its middle. It's definitely a big difference to remove (or severely down-grade) an existing major highway versus never having built the highway in the first place.

I-35 is a legit major Interstate highway in our national highway network. Turning I-35 into a surface street through Central Austin would be much worse than any "Breezewood" that exists in our highway network elsewhere.

I still don't understand how a freeway divides neighborhoods.

Elevated freeways don't physically divide neighborhoods. But they do create a clear boundary for where real estate developers choose to build things and where a city government chooses to invest its services. It's more a psychological thing. And then there's the issue of how the property under the elevated structures is used. If the land gets covered up in homeless encampments, garbage or sketchy activity that does create more of a scary barrier no one wants to go near, much less cross.

Freeways built at-grade do more than elevated structures to create physical barriers since pathways to get over or under the freeway are more limited. If you're on foot you have to walk to the next major intersection, where there hopefully is a sidewalk and other signals to help cross frontage roads and all that other stuff. There are ways to solve those problems without freeway removal, like green space caps or enhanced street bridges over freeways.

Based upon your comment, my counter-question would be... how many of those people own high-density housing (read apartment buildings) right near those transit lines? Makes you wonder.

Well, yeah. A bunch of these rich policy-makers own a lot of real estate. In many cases it's a better place to "store" many millions of dollars than the stock market. They'll have their primary residence. But then they own all sorts of other properties as investments and then also probably have companies that buy up and manage commercial and residential real estate. Political party affiliation makes no difference. Most of the people elected to national office have a lot of real estate holdings. And they want to make even more money from that stuff. So, yeah, they look at things like super highways as enormous wastes of otherwise prime real estate.

[thisdj78]

Vancouver BC, which has a similar metro population as Austin, has no freeway passing through their downtown.

Vancouver has a very different geographic location compared to Austin. It's on the coast and functions as a dead end of sorts for the highway network. There aren't any major destinations farther West or Northwest of Vancouver.

Austin is an entirely inland metro with major destinations in all directions, but much more so via I-35. San Antonio, Laredo and commerce from Mexico is to the South and DFW and other points beyond are to the North. I-35 has run somewhat thru the middle of Austin for many years. Vancouver has never had a -thru- super highway running through its middle. It's definitely a big difference to remove (or severely down-grade) an existing major highway versus never having built the highway in the first place.

I-35 is a legit major Interstate highway in our national highway network. Turning I-35 into a surface street through Central Austin would be much worse than any "Breezewood" that exists in our highway network elsewhere.

I understand that and thought about that as well and my answer to that is: since there are no major cities to the north and west of Vancouver and it's a major commercial sea port, it would seem that there would be an above average amount of commercial truck traffic headed in and out of the central business and port areas with no freeways and physically limited route options. That's the only reason I use Vancouver as an example: they still have to find a way to manage a large amount of truck traffic in the central area without freeways.

But like I said, I'm in agreement with your original point.

[longhorn]

What extra phase is being done Waco? The construction is finished.

[ZLoth]

What extra phase is being done Waco? The construction is finished.

I-35 Waco Project 4C - Waco South. Currently unfunded.

[triplemultiplex]

And, of course, we have Austin... 

"A boulevard with bus lanes, bike lanes, and some car lanes would actually move a lot more people," said Adam Greenfield, board president of the group Rethink 35, which advocates for a different use of the land. "Highways are actually very poor. Movers of large numbers of people because cars are very space inefficient. They lock up in congestion. That's a basic-level bug that they have."

The Rethink people are technically correct, but only about LOCAL movements.  A bus is more space efficient. Which is of no help to all the folks going between DFW and San Antonio or all the freight going back and forth to Mexico.

[longhorn]

What extra phase is being done Waco? The construction is finished.

I-35 Waco Project 4C - Waco South. Currently unfunded.

So does the Valley Mills to I-35 North ramp stay? Hard to tell on the schematics.

https://ftp.txdot.gov/pub/txdot-info/wac/notices/092012/jane_to_21st.pdf

[jgb191]

Regarding the original question to this thread:  I'd be surprised if it's ever completed before the end of this century; it's been under construction at some point in Texas for as long as I've been alive.  And let's not forget south of San Antonio is eventually also going to need to be expanded with the ever increasing truck traffic down to Laredo, and I anticipate extending it south of Laredo is a real possibility.