New York

[cl94]

Their newer clearview signs don't look to bad to me.  The older clearview on the other hand...

Some of their recent signs, particularly those at Exit 51, are baaaaaaad. Negative contrast, improper shield font, recreation of incorrect signs that were replaced. Most of those will likely be out within 10 years or so when they reconstruct the entire stretch. With the exception of these, most of the Buffalo signs they replaced were mid-90s or newer.

[mtantillo]

Their newer clearview signs don't look to bad to me.  The older clearview on the other hand...

Some of their recent signs, particularly those at Exit 51, are baaaaaaad. Negative contrast, improper shield font, recreation of incorrect signs that were replaced. Most of those will likely be out within 10 years or so when they reconstruct the entire stretch. With the exception of these, most of the Buffalo signs they replaced were mid-90s or newer.

I actually had trouble reading some of the newer Clearview signs on the Thruway near Buffalo. There is something majorly wrong with them. It was dark, and the signs were not illuminated, just lit by headlights. The retroreflection made the signs just appear like one bright green blur, and you couldn't read the lettering on them. It wasn't until you were practically below them that the angle was such that you could make out the legend for a split second before driving under it. Luckily I knew exactly where I was going and didn't actually need to read the signs, but still, that was very disconcerting to say the least.

[cl94]

Their newer clearview signs don't look to bad to me.  The older clearview on the other hand...

Some of their recent signs, particularly those at Exit 51, are baaaaaaad. Negative contrast, improper shield font, recreation of incorrect signs that were replaced. Most of those will likely be out within 10 years or so when they reconstruct the entire stretch. With the exception of these, most of the Buffalo signs they replaced were mid-90s or newer.

I actually had trouble reading some of the newer Clearview signs on the Thruway near Buffalo. There is something majorly wrong with them. It was dark, and the signs were not illuminated, just lit by headlights. The retroreflection made the signs just appear like one bright green blur, and you couldn't read the lettering on them. It wasn't until you were practically below them that the angle was such that you could make out the legend for a split second before driving under it. Luckily I knew exactly where I was going and didn't actually need to read the signs, but still, that was very disconcerting to say the least.

It's as if they made them too reflective. The newest batch, between Exits 50 and 52A, is probably the worst. Not only are they illegible at night or when the sun is shining on them, but they're between the stretch of road connecting the airport to the mall and Niagara Falls. Ever since they went up, the amount of accidents on that accident-prone stretch has increased significantly,  especially at night, as people can't read the signs, even though the old signage was non-reflective. I-190's newer signage at I-290 isn't much better.

[Pete from Boston]

I-84, I-287, and the canal system were transferred to the Thruway in the 90s to continue taking tolls.  I-84 was transferred back when the downtown Buffalo barriers went away.  Region 8 still isn't happy about that one.  They close I-84 every time it snows because they don't want to do more snow removal.

Adding the Peace Bridge to the other Niagara bridges feels weird to me, especially since the other three are clustered near the falls and it's a ways upriver.

If NYSDOT and NYSTA actually merged, I suspect you'd have more lower-level people cut than upper.  When the soft merge between Region 1 and Main Office happened (moved into the same building and share many administrative functions, but retaining a separate agency code and layoff unit and authoritative relationship between the two, basically giving Main Office all the benefits of a merger but none of the drawbacks), there was a LOT of attrition of titles.  Region 1 is now the smallest region and in many ways short staffed.  Planning, for example, is three full time people and one part timer.  The other regions all have in excess of 7.  What used to be Region 1's IT and HR staff is now gone and we have to deal with the Kingdoms in Main Office that are difficult to contact and never get anything done on time.  All the higher-ups continue on as usual, though.  Did I mention that the state built a brand-new building for Region 1 just two years before?

There's now talk of putting the Thruway in the same building as DOT.  That's going to be very, very interesting, as the Thruway people are better paid than DOT for the exact same job (better union).  Of course, this would all be housed in a new building at Thruway headquarters in the middle of nowhere, rather than in the wonderfully-located DOT building or the vacant state campus.

Pretty sure the tolls would continue as always.  As far as I know, the Thruway doesn't even have plans to expand the use of E-ZPass on the ticket system.

Their newer clearview signs don't look to bad to me.  The older clearview on the other hand...

Why on earth doesn't the Thruway go to AET?  The one-time buyout of contract people would cost much less than perpetually adding future pension/health care obligations to its books.

[machias]

Their newer clearview signs don't look to bad to me.  The older clearview on the other hand...

Some of their recent signs, particularly those at Exit 51, are baaaaaaad. Negative contrast, improper shield font, recreation of incorrect signs that were replaced. Most of those will likely be out within 10 years or so when they reconstruct the entire stretch. With the exception of these, most of the Buffalo signs they replaced were mid-90s or newer.

I actually had trouble reading some of the newer Clearview signs on the Thruway near Buffalo. There is something majorly wrong with them. It was dark, and the signs were not illuminated, just lit by headlights. The retroreflection made the signs just appear like one bright green blur, and you couldn't read the lettering on them. It wasn't until you were practically below them that the angle was such that you could make out the legend for a split second before driving under it. Luckily I knew exactly where I was going and didn't actually need to read the signs, but still, that was very disconcerting to say the least.

I've noticed the same thing with a few of the new Clearview signs on the Thruway around Utica and the Mohawk Valley. It's like the background reflectivity is much higher than the lettering reflectivity and even in the daytime it can be hard to read the lettering on the sign. I mentioned this to the Thruway Authority a few months ago but they never responded. They hardly ever respond to my emails.

As far as the numerals on the new route markers around Buffalo, I believe they're actually correct to the new New York standard, NYSDOT is now using Series D for route numerals instead of Series F and I think NYSTA is doing the same thing. It's part of an effort to standardize the NY Route marker on both standalone and guide signs because there was a LOT of variation in how the NY Route marker was presented up until about a year ago (stretched out shields, compressed shields, no uniformity to the black space around the shield, wild variations in lettering, etc.)

[cl94]

I-84, I-287, and the canal system were transferred to the Thruway in the 90s to continue taking tolls.  I-84 was transferred back when the downtown Buffalo barriers went away.  Region 8 still isn't happy about that one.  They close I-84 every time it snows because they don't want to do more snow removal.

Adding the Peace Bridge to the other Niagara bridges feels weird to me, especially since the other three are clustered near the falls and it's a ways upriver.

If NYSDOT and NYSTA actually merged, I suspect you'd have more lower-level people cut than upper.  When the soft merge between Region 1 and Main Office happened (moved into the same building and share many administrative functions, but retaining a separate agency code and layoff unit and authoritative relationship between the two, basically giving Main Office all the benefits of a merger but none of the drawbacks), there was a LOT of attrition of titles.  Region 1 is now the smallest region and in many ways short staffed.  Planning, for example, is three full time people and one part timer.  The other regions all have in excess of 7.  What used to be Region 1's IT and HR staff is now gone and we have to deal with the Kingdoms in Main Office that are difficult to contact and never get anything done on time.  All the higher-ups continue on as usual, though.  Did I mention that the state built a brand-new building for Region 1 just two years before?

There's now talk of putting the Thruway in the same building as DOT.  That's going to be very, very interesting, as the Thruway people are better paid than DOT for the exact same job (better union).  Of course, this would all be housed in a new building at Thruway headquarters in the middle of nowhere, rather than in the wonderfully-located DOT building or the vacant state campus.

Pretty sure the tolls would continue as always.  As far as I know, the Thruway doesn't even have plans to expand the use of E-ZPass on the ticket system.

Their newer clearview signs don't look to bad to me.  The older clearview on the other hand...

Why on earth doesn't the Thruway go to AET?  The one-time buyout of contract people would cost much less than perpetually adding future pension/health care obligations to its books.

Civil servant unions in New York run the state. It's almost to the point where the main destination of toll revenue is the salaries of those involved in toll collection. The minute a politician suggests AET, the CSEA will make sure they don't serve another term. It's also part of the reason why there are so many redundant authorities, not just in transportation.

As with the numbers, a couple of the shields have numbers overlapping the outline. Still legible, but adds to the overall sloppiness of the signs. But if it's the new standard, I'll certainly take it over what we previously had. It doesn't help that they replaced the 1/4 mile advance sign for Exit 50A on the other end of that sign's gantry with one identical to the original (and just as wrong).

[Pete from Boston]

Civil servant unions in New York run the state. It's almost to the point where the main destination of toll revenue is the salaries of those involved in toll collection. The minute a politician suggests AET, the CSEA will make sure they don't serve another term. It's also part of the reason why there are so many redundant authorities, not just in transportation.

Time for Occupy Albany.

[froggie]

Not gonna happen in the (Union) Empire State...

[cl94]

Not gonna happen in the (Union) Empire State...

Nope. There is one AET facility in the state (Henry Hudson Bridge), so they might be waiting to see how that fares/ how badly the unions react. Difference is that there were ~6-8 people on at a time max, compared to at least 2 at every exit on the Thruway plus significantly more at the major exits, mainline barriers, and bridges. The MTA can make up for one bridge by not replacing those who leave/retire. Not the Thruway and its several hundred toll takers.

[roadman]

I actually had trouble reading some of the newer Clearview signs on the Thruway near Buffalo. ... The retroreflection made the signs just appear like one bright green blur, and you couldn't read the lettering on them.

It could very well be that the NYSTA used brighter retro-reflective materials for the background and the legends - say a high intensity (Type III or IV) legend on a high intensity prismatic - HIP-  (Type VIII or better) background.  Combined with the fact that Clearview letters are narrower and taller than Highway Gothic, this could likely cause the problem you're describing.

If somebody out there in AARoads land has access to the spec sheets for these sign panels, I'd be interested in seeing them.  It might solve the mystery.

As a sidebar, when FHWA first issued their current guidance for fabricating overhead signs (i.e. using HIP for legends) in 2004, MassHighway made the decision to require use of HIP for both legend and background for all extruded guide signs (both overhead and ground-mounted), with the caveat that the legend and background both be the same grade of material (i.e. no Type VIII legend on Type XI background).  For most recent sign installations made according to these specs, it's interesting to note that, at night under headlight illumination, the signs not only get brighter as you approach them, but get more legible as well.  Legends on overhead signs do not become illegible until just as the front of your vehicle passes under the sign.

[xcellntbuy]

If I remember correctly, the Teamsters is the representative bargaining unit for the Thruway's toll collectors.  The union has been historically known for its power.

[roadman]

Not gonna happen in the (Union) Empire State...

They said the same thing for over a decade about the Massachusetts Turnpike - no AET ever.  However, that has since changed with the November 2009 MassDOT "merger".  At present, the MassPike and Boston Harbor tunnels are now scheduled to convert to AET sometime in 2016.  Of course, that doesn't mean that the toll taker unions won't try to block AET at the last minute.  However, so far, there's been no indications they plan to seriously fight AET implementation.

Admittedly, it took legislation filed by the Governor to eliminate the Turnpike Authority and create the present MassDOT, but the Legislature went along with it.  If the Union Commonwealth of Massachusetts can manage that, I'd say there's hope for New York State.

[Pete from Boston]

Not gonna happen in the (Union) Empire State...

They said the same thing for over a decade about the Massachusetts Turnpike - no AET ever.  However, that has since changed with the November 2009 MassDOT "merger".  At present, the MassPike and Boston Harbor tunnels are now scheduled to convert to AET sometime in 2016.  Of course, that doesn't mean that the toll taker unions won't try to block AET at the last minute.  However, so far, there's been no indications they plan to seriously fight AET implementation.

Admittedly, it took legislation filed by the Governor to eliminate the Turnpike Authority and create the present MassDOT, but the Legislature went along with it.  If the Union Commonwealth of Massachusetts can manage that, I'd say there's hope for New York State.

I was going to bring that up but didn't want to start a pissing contest about which state is the most corrupt/intractable/etc.  There was also the typical resistance to outside thinking here, something which hopefully is eroding.  In 2008 the Turnpike's then-chairman Bernard Cohen went on at length about the unsuitability of AET for the Mass Pike, finally desperately joking, "Why would we want to do what they do in New Jersey?"

As roadman says, unions are big and vocal here.  And a bunch of their toll-taking members are going to soon be out of jobs. 

I'm sure elevator operators claimed public safety demanded them, much as the tolltakers will.  Maybe they'll end up next to each other in the same museum.  Or if people want to see living examples, I guess they'll have to go to New York.  Maybe they'll even become a tourist attraction when they're the only ones left.

I just hope it doesn't take the kind of crash that gave Connecticut a distaste for toll booths for New York to wake up and join the 21st century.

[roadman]

I just hope it doesn't take the kind of crash that gave Connecticut a distaste for toll booths for New York to wake up and join the 21st century.

As vocal as the anti-toll lobby in Connecticut was following the 1983 Stratford toll plaza crash, the reason the tolls on the Connecticut Turnpike were eliminated was far simpler.  IIRC, the State used Federal funds to rebuild the Mianis River Bridge that had collapsed earlier that year.  Part of the Federal legislation authorizing that funding required Connecticut to permanently remove tolls from the Turnpike.

Of course, stating "We're going to remove tolls as the result of a fatal crash" makes the pols look much better, and also makes it more likely the media will actually cover the story, then "The Feds are making us remove tolls" does.

Sidebar -  I've always had an interest in the Stratford crash since it first happened - I recall seeing the TV new reports at the time.  However, I've never been able to find a copy of, or a link, to any NTSB report, brief, or recommendation letter on it.

[Duke87]

As vocal as the anti-toll lobby in Connecticut was following the 1983 Stratford toll plaza crash, the reason the tolls on the Connecticut Turnpike were eliminated was far simpler.  IIRC, the State used Federal funds to rebuild the Mianis River Bridge that had collapsed earlier that year.  Part of the Federal legislation authorizing that funding required Connecticut to permanently remove tolls from the Turnpike.

Of course, stating "We're going to remove tolls as the result of a fatal crash" makes the pols look much better, and also makes it more likely the media will actually cover the story, then "The Feds are making us remove tolls" does.

That can't be the only reason. Tolls were also removed from the Merritt and from a few bridges near Hartford at about the same time.

Here's a page that seems to logically explain it.

[ixnay]

As vocal as the anti-toll lobby in Connecticut was following the 1983 Stratford toll plaza crash, the reason the tolls on the Connecticut Turnpike were eliminated was far simpler.  IIRC, the State used Federal funds to rebuild the Mianis River Bridge that had collapsed earlier that year.  Part of the Federal legislation authorizing that funding required Connecticut to permanently remove tolls from the Turnpike.

Of course, stating "We're going to remove tolls as the result of a fatal crash" makes the pols look much better, and also makes it more likely the media will actually cover the story, then "The Feds are making us remove tolls" does.

That can't be the only reason. Tolls were also removed from the Merritt and from a few bridges near Hartford at about the same time.

Here's a page that seems to logically explain it.

My experience of Nutmeg State toll booth backup (expletive) came on my summer 1980 trip to Nova Scotia.  My return route was the 495-290-Masspike-(then)86-84-91-Wilbur Cross-Merritt combo.  I don't remember if there were toll booth backups on the Wilbur Cross or the Merritt on that trip.

ixnay

[Pete from Boston]

Getting slightly back on topic, were any of the downstate New York parkways ever tolled? 

[cl94]

Getting slightly back on topic, were any of the downstate New York parkways ever tolled?

Yes. Hutchison River, Southern State, and the Robert Moses Causeway were tolled at one point. I think the Saw Mill may have been, but I'm not certain.

[Duke87]

Getting slightly back on topic, were any of the downstate New York parkways ever tolled?

Yes. Hutchison River, Southern State, and the Robert Moses Causeway were tolled at one point. I think the Saw Mill may have been, but I'm not certain.

The Hutch had a toll plaza between exits 7 (Boston Post Rd) and 8 (Sandford Blvd) which charged 25 cents each way. It was removed in 1995. I remember it well.

The Saw Mill had a toll plaza directly south of exit 3 (McLean Ave) which was removed at the same time, but I was never on the Saw Mill in those days so I don't personally remember it. I assume the toll was also 25 cents.

The toll on the Southern State was between exits 13 and 14, but likewise, I do not remember it personally. And could not, since unlike the other two it was removed in 1978, which was before I was born.

The theme seems to be you payed a toll when entering or leaving the five boroughs.

[Pete from Boston]

That's right -- I now remember the Hutch toll, though I didn't use that part of the Hutch before the removal. 

[vdeane]

Their newer clearview signs don't look to bad to me.  The older clearview on the other hand...

Some of their recent signs, particularly those at Exit 51, are baaaaaaad. Negative contrast, improper shield font, recreation of incorrect signs that were replaced. Most of those will likely be out within 10 years or so when they reconstruct the entire stretch. With the exception of these, most of the Buffalo signs they replaced were mid-90s or newer.

I don't know much about the Buffalo signs.  Of course, both NYSDOT and NYSTA have been known to erect old-standard signs that simply had their contract/project delayed.  When I think of their modern clearview, I typically think of this: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.090804,-73.928697,3a,75y,315.59h,85.89t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sDdgTgrbvDm5ypiHHPszAZg!2e0

[cl94]

Their newer clearview signs don't look to bad to me.  The older clearview on the other hand...

Some of their recent signs, particularly those at Exit 51, are baaaaaaad. Negative contrast, improper shield font, recreation of incorrect signs that were replaced. Most of those will likely be out within 10 years or so when they reconstruct the entire stretch. With the exception of these, most of the Buffalo signs they replaced were mid-90s or newer.

I don't know much about the Buffalo signs.  Of course, both NYSDOT and NYSTA have been known to erect old-standard signs that simply had their contract/project delayed.  When I think of their modern clearview, I typically think of this: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.090804,-73.928697,3a,75y,315.59h,85.89t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sDdgTgrbvDm5ypiHHPszAZg!2e0

That's how most of the signs installed 2013 or earlier are, along with many on I-190. It's the 2014 batch that's the problem. Probably 30 new signs and they're all bad.

[hbelkins]

Seeing some of the discussions about unions and toll employees causes me to chime in.

I've said before that I'm glad Kentucky's state employees aren't unionized. I don't think a union would have too much success in getting much accomplished, since budget decisions such as pay increases are proposed by the governor and enacted by the legislature. Even if a union negotiated a raise, the legislature could refuse to fund it.

As Kentucky dropped tolls from its turnpike and parkways, the toll collectors who were displaced were absorbed into the state employee pool and found other jobs. Two of the last toll roads to go free were the Hal Rogers (f/k/a Daniel Boone) and Cumberland. That happened before I started with KYTC. There wasn't a toll booth on the Hal Rogers in our district, but we took a few of the employees. One didn't work out so well. She landed as a custodian in our building and was a few fries short of a Happy Meal. I think the final straw was when she went to one of the local dollar stores on her break and got caught shoplifting. Another was placed in our accounts office and she did really well. She was the sweetest lady, everyone loved her, and when she retired a couple of years ago, everyone was sad.

One of the displaced Cumberland Parkway toll collectors went to work in the Somerset office and handled a variety of programs, including Highway Safety (f/k/a Drive Smart). A number of us PIOs got to know and like her through our involvement with Drive Smart. When the PIO in District 8 retired, she got the job. Despite not having a journalism background, she does a really good job.

Having a union would have made no difference for these people. They were taken care of despite Kentucky state workers not being unionized.

The point is, the state agencies in the states with active unions and toll roads would probably take care of any workers displaced if they went to all-electronic collection.

[Pete from Boston]

I think taking care of toll collectors is an easier pill to swallow than paying their successors indefinitely. 

[cl94]

In other news, two of Erie County's remaining county route shields are no longer with us. The shields on Clark Street in Hamburg and Armor Road in Orchard Park have disappeared at some point before I passed through there an hour ago. The CR 30 shield on NY 240 north of Springville remains and I obtained a mediocre cell phone picture of it. It is not in good shape. As of March, the two CR 580 shields in Tonawanda were still in place. Unless I'm missing something, those are the only three shields that remain standing.